Jump to content

power conditioners y/n


leftwinger57

Recommended Posts

Hi being fairly new to 2-ch audio I've heard somethings about power conditioners.

These are not your surge protectors that you can get at any retail around. Now, how really important are they. I've seen Surgex and Monster units for$400 and more.I kind of equate these products to cables that the golden ears think there dipped in gold. I still contend that a direct lightening hit will destroy anything electric in your house just like a dirty nuke bomb going off. Some smaller models don't even have enough outlets to serve it's intented purpose. Hey, if I'm wrong tell me but if it's just another piece for one's rack also say so. Now that my gear is getting more expensive I'd like to know that besides h/o insurance there is something that one can do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 78
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Power conditioners, in addition to providing surge protection, also "clean" the AC which powers connected equipment. The AC lines in our homes have all kinds of noise which can be generated by fluorescent lights, light dimmers, motors, poor outlet connections, etc. The conditioners have various kinds of filters which can potentially block this stuff from getting into sensitive equipment like amps/preamps and so on. Some also isolate the outlets from one another to eliminate possible interaction between the devices which are plugged into it. As to whether it's necessary to use such a device is debatable. Some people claim that they hear a huge difference from their audio systems with conditioners; others say that the picture on their TV is better with it. Personally, I don't use them, but I do use good quality surge suppressors (some of which also contain filtering). Powerline surges are well documented, and solid state equipment can certainly be damaged by overvoltage conditions. So, I'd recommend going that route to protect your investment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The power conditioner listed in my signature cost me around $50. I didn't buy it as a snake oil cure-all for improving the picture, sound, etc. of what I have but more as an upgraded surge protector. Mine has LED lights indicating exactly how much power is being drawn by the components connected to it. More of a novelty than anything but even with my HDTV, PS3, pre-amp, Wii, and DirecTV DVR connected they were only drawing about 20% of its maximum capacity.

Mine has specific outlets for digital or analog devices, amps, etc. I have my Emotiva LPA-1 power amp connected directly to the wall outlet (as recommended by Emotiva). Currently my HDTV's cord isn't long enough to reach where I have the power conditioner so I also have it plugged directly into the wall. The other electronics listed in my signature are plugged into the conditioner.

If you do get one be careful what you connect to it. Power amps and receivers might not be able to draw enough power through some conditioners.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is the power conditioner I've used in my rack for the past 6 years.It's been flawless and even identified to the power company that the transformer on our power pole outside needed replacing, while protecting my equipment. Why spend all that money for Monster and the other pretty faces when you can have this rather ugly, rack-mountable unit that provides 2400 watts of protection at a decent price? It lists for $499 and is a bargain at Newegg and other vendors for under $265:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842111279 -Glenn

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some power conditioners can actually increase the noise, it depends on the design.

I ran into this problem a while back when a recording studio needed some help. They had bought a brand name big dollar power conditioner and it made the noise increase. I had him plug in a couple of PAR64 500W and the noise went away.

The power conditioner got returned.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

APC makes some nice UPS' with godzilla batteries so when the power goes, you have plenty of time to shut down. I use the 1500's, no noise, dead quiet, and power is constant 60hz sine wave from the battery. The LCD display tells you how much you're getting, how much you are using and how long the battery will last without power which with a couple amps at low volumes is almost enough to finish listening to the CD.....

http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SMT1500&total_watts=50

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I found that the single biggest source of noise in my system, video and audio, was coming from my coax cable.

Once I installed a Jensen VRD-1FF coax filter all was well.

It seems that the cable ground and electrical ground are at quite different potentials. Had the same issue in my old house too!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

..... plus the blacks on the TV are visibly blacker.

Good one!!! and so it starts (or maybe...) the last time this subject came up, it was like watching the prize fight with popcorn. Sorta' like a "discussion" on speaker wire and interconnects.... Always entertaining, if not educational from many aspects.

Some will claim it's snake oil. Some will offer the only effective solution is a "whole house" system with the "device" at the breaker box. Some will tout other means, methods and mechanisms.

The reality of the situation is that power surges, sudden power losses, or low voltage situations, etc. are not good for your equipment. Whether it's a cheap (but good quality..) or an expensive "isolated power supply", or even the very expensive whole house solution insisted by previous discussions..., the fact of the matter is that anything that works without introducing additional "artifacts" into the 60Hz, 120/140 VAC power that you need is probably a good thing. In rural Florida? It's a downright necessity...

[H]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've seen Surgex and Monster units for$400 and more. I kind of equate these products to cables that the golden ears think there dipped in gold. I still contend that a direct lightening hit will destroy anything electric in your house just like a dirty nuke bomb going off.

Take a $3 power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts. Sell it for $7 in the grocery store. Or put it in a fancy box with a big name. And sell it for $40 or $150. Then a majority will tell you it is important.

Undersize the protector circuit. Then a surge, too small to harm protection already inside electronics, will destroy the protector. The most naive among us will claim, "My protector sacrificed itself to save my computer!" Reality. The electronics saved itself.

The protector disconnected as fast as possible to promote more sales and to avoid a house fire. But sometimes it does not disconnect fast enough. So these scary pictures are seen by most fire departments:

http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol entitled "Surge Protector Fires"
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/lesson-learned/surgeprotectorfire.htm
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339
Well those most easily scammed will deny those pictures or avoid the entire concept.

Then along comes Monster. Monster previously sold speaker cables with polarity. Connect the wire backwards, and Monster said your sound is subverted. And so many even claimed they could hear the difference. So Monster sold those $7 speaker wires for $70.

Monster has a long history of identifying scams. Then selling the same products for even higher profits. If Monster is selling it, then you can bet everyone doing that product is selling myths.

Now the latest thing is to sell the same power strip protector inside an even fancier box by calling it a line conditioner. A $3 power strip with some ten cent protector parts in a more expensive box sells for many $hundreds.

So, back to what a surge protector does. All appliances contain serious protection. Most overhyped 'surges' are made irrelevant by superior protection inside electronics. And even by less protection inside dimmer switches and bathroom GFCIs. How often do you replace that bathroom GFCI daily? Your concern is the rare surge that can overwhelm protection - typically once even seven years.

That means hundreds of thousands of joules. Protection is always (as in every time) always about where that energy dissipates. Either that energy dissipates harmlessly outside the building. If that energy is inside, then it hunts for earth destructively via appliances. Nothing stops that hunt. Either the surge is absorbed outside - never enters the building. Or you have surge damage with or without magic boxes from Monster, et al.

Surge protection from direct lightning strikes has been well proven for over 100 years. Every wire inside every incoming cable must connect as short a possible to single point earth ground. Some wires connect directly - cable TV, satellite dish. Others will not work if hardwired to earth. So telephone and AC electric need a 'whole house' protector to make that earth connection. What does the effective protector do? No protector does protection. An effective protector makes a 'less than 10 foot' connection to surge protection - earth ground. Where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. Not just any ground. Single point. Separate earth grounds also make interior appliance damage easier.

How to identify an ineffective protector. 1) It does not have that always required, dedicated, and short wire to earth. 2) Manufacturer will not even discuss earth ground. That includes all products from Monster, magic line conditioners from Furman, and the so many other manufacturers who are selling the same products.

Responsible companies that sell 'whole house' protectors include Siemens, General Electric, ABB, Square D, Leviton, Keison, Polyphaser, and Intermatic. A Cutler-Hammer 'whole house' protector sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. Above are names that any 'guy' should know as responsible. Monster and other companies selling the same myth are not in that list.

Your telco's switching computer is connected to overhead wires all over town. Therefore (according to a 1950s Bell System Tech Journal paper) it suffers about 100 surges with every thunderstorm. So how often is your entire town without phone service for four days while they replace that computer? Every homeowner must do the same thing. They locate their protectors were every wire enters the building. And up to 50 meters (150 feet) distant from electronics. The distance to earth ground and the separation between protector and electronics - both are important for protection.

You do same in your house. Inspect where the telco wire meets yours. Inside that NID box is a 'whole house' protector. Provided for free because effective protectors cost so little money and are so effective. Why does it work? See the green or gray wire that connects to earth ground. That free telco protector is complete protection if it is earthed to the same electrode that every other wire (cable TV, AC electric) connects to. And 'less than 10 feet'. Only you are responsible for that ground. Even the superior telco protector is useless if you have not installed or upgraded your earthing to both meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical code. Protection is always about where energy dissipates - single point earth ground.

Above is an executive summary of your 'secondary' protection system. Also inspect your 'primary' surge protection system. A picture of what to inspect: http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

No earth ground means no effective protection. Protection is always (see that word) about where energy dissipates. Protectors selling for obscene profits will not even discuss earth ground. Why discuss what would only harm profits? A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not for me. I use a $40 surge protector, but never heard any sound difference with the so called conditioners. I just suck all the dirty juice I can squeeze out of the power company, push it though an old 270 watt Pioneer reciever, and nothing but sweet sound comes out the other end. It's all hype man.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I also use an APC BackUPS unit.... An XS1300, that has a battery backup, enough for 780 watts of draw. I use it mainly for the voltage regulator function it has, to maintain a constant voltage, when the power fluctuates up and down. Got it at Best Buy for $139. Has plug isolation, noise filtration for the outlets, as well as RG8 connections for cable or satellite. The flourecent display is very handy as wel... Wouldn't operate my equipment without it !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i does seem like a familiar subject....

bottom line is this, the good ones do what they say and protect your gear. mine just saved me last week. apparently my voltage/current had a large surge and kept up for some time. i didn't count the minutes but it was a around a few hours where the voltage was above 137V. my furman shut everything down and protected my stuff.

if you are into 2CH then you will seem more results than someone in HT. i suggest getting one. i personally sugesst the same one i have, Furman Sound 20PFI.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have the PureAV PF60 and love it, I would highly recommend it. You can get it in silver or black, I have the black and it is both very nice looking and very well made. If you search you will find excellent deals on these and they compare to or better power conditioners costing much much more.

Here is a nice review with some pics and details. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?raccs&1164306802&read&3&4&

Here are some pics from google image neither are my setup, the top one was originally from a member of this forum, here is a link to the thread http://community.klipsch.com/forums/p/75050/757928.aspx

klipsch%20020xyz.jpg

PF-60-sm.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I also use an APC BackUPS unit.... An XS1300, that has a battery backup, enough for 780 watts of draw. I use it mainly for the voltage regulator function it has, to maintain a constant voltage, when the power fluctuates up and down.

So how often does your power vary so much that incandescent bulbs dim to 70% and 50% intensity? If your voltage is varying that much, then you need an electrician ASAP to fix what may be a serious human safety issue.

Meanwhile, a normal voltage to all electronics is even when incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. Anything a UPS would be must be done better in the power supply of all electronics.

What does that UPS do? Connects electronics directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode. Where is protection? How does that relay magically cure dirty electricity?

What is the output from this 120 volt UPS when in battery backup mode? 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. This power can be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors. And is ideal power to all electronics. Since they are promoting hearsay without numbers, then a UPS manufacturer will call that a pure sine wave, a stepped sine wave, a modified sine wave, or so many other subjective terms. Above are hard numbers. 200 volt square wave is a sum of pure sine waves (as you should remember from high school math).

Where is superior protection? As usual, inside electronics. That UPS has one function. Provides temporary and 'dirtiest' power during a blackout. If you think it has other protective features, then post the manufacture spec numbers that claims that feature. And good luck. Features hyped by subjective retail advertising are, at best, near zero. APC can hype myths to many who all but want to be taken.

If your voltage is varying that much, then you needed an electrician yesterday. How often do your incandescent light seriously dim or brighten? Fix the problem - potentially a human safety issue. And a greater threat to motorized appliances such as the refrigerator. Do not cure symptoms. UPS is only for temporary and dirty power during a blackout.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...