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power conditioners y/n


leftwinger57

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I don't know the answers that preceded this one. I didn't have time to read them all. But, I got my power conditioner when I lived in the inland empire in So. Cal a long time ago. It made an immediate and noticeable improvement in my rig then. Why? Well that area is known for varying line power supply AKA "brown-outs". When the power demands are high the grid accommodates the need by fluctuating supply among the systems users. For the music reproduction this resulted in muddying sounds and variable playback speeds. Put in a power conditioner and the problem is instantly solved and music reproduction is consistent at all times. Now does this mean you need the best and costliest power conditioner? Somehow I doubt it. Also some high end equipment comes with power conditioners built in. I subsequently moved up to Accuphase solid state product and they have power conditioners built into their amps. So my power is redundantly conditioned.

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Also I had some equipment plugged into some $10 "protectors" They blew also... along with whatever was plugged into them.

2nd Triplite...

Had a lightening strike. blew up the tripplite ( it rattled ). Made a call nothing was damaged and they told me cut off the power cord and they will ship me a new unit.

Great customer service

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I have to admit I'm also using an APC Battery Backup unit. The XS 1500. It has built in Automatic Voltage Regulation and I have to say it works. It doesn't put out a pure sinewave but then again none of the battery backups do until you hit the $800 or more mark (at least I haven't been able to find any cheaper ones) and yes it really does regulate the voltage. Naturally when you "load" your outlet by turning on all of your equipment the volts are going to drop a little. Maybe 5 volts. Maybe a little more. The UPC keeps the voltage at 121. All I have on right now is my TV and receiver and cable box so the voltage coming in is at 120. If I turn on my PS3 my usage jumps to 390 watts. If I turn on my 3 light lamp it jumps to over 400 watts. Power coming in drops to 118. I'm still at 121 output though. And as someone else said it really helps during brownouts. It was an unusually hot summer out here so even though my area generally has good power it suffered this past summer. We had brownouts pretty regularly. Well all of my equipment survived and kept on chugging but my cousin lost a TV and DVD player. I had been telling him to get a power conditioner but he didn't listen and lo and behold after one of the brownouts the TV clicked off and tried to come back on but it didn't. Coincidence? I doubt it. Now I'm not going to say that its going to give you better sound. As far as picture it depends on the source. My HDMI sources all look the same with or without the conditioner but my Xbox and Tivo which are both hooked up via component look a little better. They both had lines running through the picture which were very hard to see I admit but I looked at the same recordings and played the same game and the lines.flicker was gone. Will everyone get a better picture or sound? No. And true most power supplies can handle the surges and overvoltage spikes but they all seem to have a hard time when it comes to brownouts. Not to mention the rapid power cycling of the equipment when the power falls off then goes back to normal then falls off just enough to keep the equipment powered up then falling off below the threshold etc. That can't be good. Why put the equipment through that when you can buy a $100- $300 piece of equipment and let it go through the torture. As far as lightning the conditioners all say they will only allow like 50v to pass from a lightning strike. Would I want to test that theory? No. But I honestly have known people that have had strikes near their houses take out the transformer, alarm and power conditioner in the house but all of their equipment hooked up to the conditioner survived. So I guess thats why I stand by them. Do you have to spend $800 on one? No. Price shop. Read reviews. Find the best bang for the buck. I prefer Battery Backups with AVR because as was stated by someone else it gives you time to shut down everything. I have 2 dvrs hooked up. The cable company dvr for hd on demand and ppv and my Tivo for my main recordings even though the cable dvr comes in handy on monday nights when there are 4 things I want to record. Even though I'm sure the power supply is very capable of handling brownouts I doubt the hard drives can. Especially when they're in the middle of recording something and they keep cycling up and down. At least I can stop the recording instead of having it stopped by a brownout then while the dvr is restarting the power cuts out again.....then lets just say the power supply handles all of that and "saves" the other components and finally goes out. Well a lot of consumers are not going to just take the equipment apart and swap out the power supply. They are going to pay someone to fix it or throw it away and buy another, Both of which lead to money that really didn't need to be spent and inconviences. Of course you do have your tech gurus who will swap it out no problem....if they can find the parts and if its economical to do so......I'm not going to rely on the built in power supply to handle anything unless the product says it has built in regulation and even then I'll probably still use power protection. Just my humble opinion. If you spend thousands on a home theater setup why not protect it? Thats almost like buying a new car and leaving it parked under a tree without a car cover. Yes the paint can handle it but its going to wear out faster than the paint on the garaged car or the car that has a cover on it.

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I'm using a Tripp Lite Isobar 8 for one set of components, including the TV, and an Isobar 6 for another set. Peace of mind, plus the blacks on the TV are visibly blacker.

Can't be serious?


I was not imagining anything. It was easy to see. The Tripp Lite unit has noise filters, which seemed to do what a simple power bar/surge would not do. They're designed to filter out electrical noise from other components, like printers.
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It was easy to see. The Tripp Lite unit has noise filters, which seemed to do what a simple power bar/surge would not do. They're designed to filter out electrical noise from other components, like printers.

Did you read any numbers? Tie a knot is a power cord. That also filters out electrical noise from other components. How much? Nobody cares using your reasoning. It filters. That is enough.

From basic electrical knowledge: first component in every power supply is a filter better than Tripplite's. Exists even due to FCC regulations. Why would any need a trivial Tripplite filter when every supply already filters so much better? And for less money.

Line filter is only layer one. Noise is converted to high voltage DC; > 300 volts. Third layer: another filter superior to what is inside a Tripplite. Then another layer: high voltage DC is converted to high voltage radio waves. How many more filters and conversions exist inside every power supply? Tripplite's one filter is 'near zero' filtering. Read the numbers.

Islander - this is not about you. This is about others learning from how easily scams get prompted when numbers are ignored.

If Tripplite does anything useful, then every filter in every power supply already makes the Tripplite unnecessary. At minimum, every supply has at last four superior filters. And numerous electrical conversions. And galvanic isolation. Obviously, every power supply makes a Tripplite filter useless.

Just tie a knot in a power wire. That also filters out noise. And costs much less money.

Or learn from those who have done this stuff even many decades ago. No earth ground means no effective protection - ie the Tripplite. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

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Love it!! [Y]

Westom: Seriously, resurrect the old thread that went through all of this; it's good reading; shows various viewpoints, and one of the best parts of the discussions addresses the earth ground issue which regardless of any UPS or IPS is a necessity for good protection.

Edit: PS, when Tom says tie a knot in it, you can use a "daisy chain" knot or, for you former non-leg ABN MIL types, the same knot you used to "organize" your risers to keep them from getting totally tangled up when stuffing them and the 'chute back into the bag.... The practical advantage to the daisy chain is that it allows you to shorten cords to the shortest length you need to clean up the rats nest behind your "stuff", and you are not making "loops" (a common error) to coil cords. Works with long interconnects, speaker wire, etc. Old trick, actually dates back to WWII... Long forgotten... but alot cheaper than some "solutions" to RF interference...

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Sure is a pretty unit. The price on a new one is very good. I have a Monster HTS3600 and that darned blue light bothers me at night so i keep it coverd. I wonder if the display light can be turned down on the PF60?

Chas

The LCD on the PF60 has several brightness levels but cannot be turned completely OFF. It probably would be distracting near the screen, mine is along a side wall and not any distraction at all.

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A good quality line conditioner in my opinion is a necessity. The entire US grid is about ready to fall apart.

The grid is failing where myths were invented by politicians. And believed by the most naive who are told what to think. In a real world, the grid is sufficient.

A superior line conditioner already exists inside every electronics appliance - as detailed earlier. At risk due to voltage variations are motorized appliances such as your refrigerator and furnace. Did you install line conditioners on appliances at most risk?

If suffering massive voltage variations, then your lights are constantly changing intensity. Therefore you need an electrician ASAP to save your life. You may have a serious wiring defect. Solve the problem. And stop listening to hypster politicians who lied about the grid, Mission Accomplished, and so many other myths.

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A good quality line conditioner in my opinion is a necessity. The entire US grid is about ready to fall apart.

The grid is failing where myths were invented by politicians. And believed by the most naive who are told what to think. In a real world, the grid is sufficient.

A superior line conditioner already exists inside every electronics appliance - as detailed earlier. At risk due to voltage variations are motorized appliances such as your refrigerator and furnace. Did you install line conditioners on appliances at most risk?

If suffering massive voltage variations, then your lights are constantly changing intensity. Therefore you need an electrician ASAP to save your life. You may have a serious wiring defect. Solve the problem. And stop listening to hypster politicians who lied about the grid, Mission Accomplished, and so many other myths.

Well I don't know if its a myth 100%. I mean certain areas of the country do still have blackouts when the grid has been "loaded" by everyone running their a/c during the summer and as I said my area experienced a lot of brownouts this summer because it was the hottest summer in years so even the people who could normally put up with the heat were running their a/c units. So can you answer why that would happen? Are the power companies intentionally causing the blackouts and brownouts bc they are being paid off by the politicians? Or was this summer (and past summers for other areas) just freak accidents?

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Well I don't know if its a myth 100%. I mean certain areas of the country do still have blackouts when the grid has been "loaded" by everyone running their a/c during the summer and as I said my area experienced a lot of brownouts this summer because it was the hottest summer in years so even the people who could normally put up with the heat were running their a/c units. So can you answer why that would happen?

Blackouts are so rare as to be newsworthy. Most are due to equipment failures, weather, etc. For example, one company that will have more blackouts is First Energy. The same company that created the entire NE blackout from Ohio, through Michigan, Ontario, and NY. That cascade was stopped repeatedly by responsible companies in Quebec, New England, and the PJM. That company operates to maximize profits. Therefore will not maintain their equipment. A NJ Governor's report even found First Energy operating their transformers at 110%. A problem directly traceable to an MBA who runs that company to maximize his profits at the expense of service. Where problems exist, find executives who do not come from the work gets done. Business school graduates. Then even standard maintenace is cost controlled.

Meanwhile, which ISO was implementing rolling blackouts on this last hottest summer? Isolated blackouts were mostly due to equipment failures. BBC is quite blunt about this. When storms cause widespread power outages, the BBC reminds us that America still puts power lines above ground. Other nations have power lines safely underground. But that is local distribution - not the grid.

National grid had some bottlenecks such as SW New England, California, etc. But these are more often due to legislation obstructions. Many independent companies that were planning new transmission lines (to profit by fixing these problems) were driven from the market due to a Supreme Court decision that defined for whom those wires benefited. Also why T Boone Pickens pulled out of his wind power enterprise. He could not get new transmission lines constructed.

The grid is quite sufficient. But we may have future infrastructure problems because Americans have become so resistant to infrastructure construction. Not just to electricity. Also to bridges, highways, ports, and rail.

All of which is irrelevant to the poster's ridiculous post about unstable voltages from the grid and about damage to electronics. Both are myths.

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All of which is irrelevant to the poster's ridiculous post about unstable voltages from the grid and about damage to electronics. Both are myths.

All "Bow" to another know it all. OK so surges, lightning strikes, etc. cannot damage electronic equipment. If you believe that I have a bridge or two to sell you!

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OK so surges, lightning strikes, etc. cannot damage electronic equipment. If you believe that I have a bridge or two to sell yo

When did a weak grid (low voltage and insufficient current) suddenly become a surge (high voltage due to excessive current)? That is the point. So many people know only because hearsay tells them how to think. How does low voltage, voltage variation, or a high power microsecond transient all become the same thing? Spin, hearsay, and advertising replaces education, knowledge, and spec numbers. A problem even explained by education numbers for the OECD. Meanwhile, a line conditioner inside every electronic appliance is often superior to anything that might be attached to its power cord. Many line conditioners contain a same circuit found in power strip protectors .... to sell for $hundreds. Obvious when one reads spec numbers rather than hearsay. Myths work because so many only know what they were told to believe. When do you even quote one spec number?

A line conditioner is typically a profit center. In some cases, how to sell power strip protectors for even higher profits. Voltage can vary so much that incandescent lights dim to 50% intensity. And even that variation is made irrelevant by circuits already inside electronics. So what do so many line conditioners do? Enrich its manufacturer. Especially when some post accusations rather than post manufacturer specifications.

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Meanwhile, a line conditioner inside every electronic appliance is often superior to anything that might be attached to its power cord. Many line conditioners contain a same circuit found in power strip protectors .... to sell for $hundreds. Obvious when one reads spec numbers rather than hearsay. Myths work because so many only know what they were told to believe. When do you even quote one spec number?


If every electronic appliance has a line conditioner inside it, would this not be listed as a feature or be mentioned in the specification list? One would think that it would help to sell the unit, with the more expensive units claimed to have better line conditioners in them. And yet, I don't recall seeing anything like that.

As for specs, here are some of the specs for one particular surge protector. Are they specific enough?

SURGE / NOISE SUPPRESSION
AC suppression joule rating 3840
AC suppression response time NM = 0 ns. CM = <1 ns
Protection modes Includes full normal mode (H-N) and common mode (N-G / H-G) line surge suppression
Clamping voltage (RMS) 140
AC suppression surge current rating 97,000 amps (36,000 NM / 61,000 CM)
AC suppression components used Metal oxide varistors, toroidal balanced chokes, ferrite rod-core inductors and VHF capacitors.
Safe thermal fusing Prevents unsafe conditions during extreme extended over-voltages and catastrophic occurrences
UL1499 let through rating 330V - UL Verified
IEEE587 Cat. A ringwave let through Less than 35 volts
EMI / RFI filtering 40-80 dB
Isolated filter banks Unique isolated filter bank design offers additional filtering between each duplex pair of outlets on the strip to prevent electrical noise interference between connected loads. Includes 4 filter banks.
Immunity Conforms to IEE 587 / ANSI C62.41

CERTIFICATIONS
UL1449 3rd Edition (AC Suppression) UL1449 3rd EDITION
UL1283 (EMI Filter) UL1283
UL1363 (Power Tap) UL1363
cUL / CSA (Canada) cUL
Approvals Exceeds IEEE 587 category A&B specifications
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Also, here are the specs on my Adcom Ace 615. I live in a wooded area, and we loose power at least a half dozen times per year, due to branches/wind bringing down a line. I no longer "cringe" when ComEd turns back on the juice.

RF (2) Rear Output, (2) Rear Input
Telephone Line (RJ11) (1) Rear Output, (1) Rear Input
AC Outlets 4 switched, 2 switched with 10 sec. delay, 2 Always On
Detailed Specifications:

Technical Specifications

Features:
2 Always on outlets
4 Switched outlets
2 Switched outlets with 10 second delay
1 12volt trigger input
1 phone input, 1 phone output
2 coax input, 2 coax output

Electrical:
Input power..........................................120VAC, +/-10%, 5-/60Hz
Protection.......................................................15A Circuit Breaker
Internal Power Consumption.........................Less than 5 watts
Control Input..................................................+/-5V to 24V AC/DC
Total Output................................................................................15A
Environmental: Operating Temperature...............0 to +50 C
Storage Temperature...............-40 to +80 C

Filter:
Noise: Normal Mode................-5dB at 5kHz; -38 dB at 300kHz
Common Mode........-3dB at 300kHz; -40 dB at 1 MHz

Surge Protection:
Endurance................................................1,000 surges 6 kV; 3 kA
Clamping.............................................................................172 volts
Response Time........................................................................0 sec.
(Passive protection / always on)
Maximum Applied Pulse (Combination Wave):
Voltage: 6,000 volts
Current: Unlimited due to current limiting
Joules: Unlimited due to current limiting

Mechanical:
Dimensions: 17"(430mm) x 12" (305mm) x 3.5"(89mm)
Weight: 10 lbs. (2.7 kg)
AC Cord: 6 ft. (1.8m) (approx. unpacked)
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Hey I've been researching the power supply issue and so far the only people that acknowledge that the power supplies in their units is superior to outside units are amp manufactures. A lot of amp manufactures put this information not only in the user manual but some even put it on the product info page. In the manual for an Emotiva amp it clearly says using power conditioners is not recommended because the amp has built in filtering etc. Some other amp manufactures even say not to use conditioners at all. Emotiva gives you the choice but it just isn't recommended. Now I've checked manuals for TVs and other consumer electronics but none of them make a mention of that. I have to agree with Chi-Town. If the power supply is superior then manufactures would make it know to consumers (the way the amp manufactures do) because thats a selling point as it potentially saves the customers hundreds if not thousands of dollars. I can't find where exactly I saw it but a few TV manufactures actually recommend some sort of power protection. Imma keep searching to see if I can find that manual again so i can let you all know what manufacture said that. But nonetheless I'm just glad I use power protection bc ironically 2 nights ago here in Memphis we had storms come through with strong winds. Well the power clicked on and off 8 times through the course of the night, And it always happened in pairs which was the weird part. It would go off for 40 seconds, come back on for like 10 seconds and then go back off again for 40 seconds again and then come back on. Now keep in mind I'm watching my Tivo while all of this is going on. I wasn't affected thanks to my battery backup and I'm sure the power supply can handle that but I just feel better knowing my equipment isn't being exposed to mindless power cycles in rapid succession. Its being fed stable power and the unit can run for about 30 minutes if I have everything turned on so if the power doesn't come back on in time I can shut everything off once.....and restore power once the utility power stabilizes.I guess my main thing is stable power at all times....not just most of the time.

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As for specs, here are some of the specs for one particular surge protector. Are they specific enough?

How to identify an ineffective protector? 1) No dedicated wire for the always required short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth ground. 2) Manufacturer avoids all discussion about earthing. Ineffective surge protectors are that easily identified.

Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. Where did that manufacturer discuss energy dissipation? See the number - 3840 joules. That means it uses 1280 joules and never more than 2560 joules to do what? It absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules? Nonsense. Damning numbers.

Don't confuse surge protector with UPS or with line conditioner. All are (should be) completely different. Are located separated to address different anomalies. For surge damage means energy is inside the building hunting for earth ground destructively via appliances. Nothing inside the house averts that hunt. Nothing.

Surge protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. That means no surge protector does surge protection. Yes - a protector is not protection. Effective protector always connects within feet of single point earth ground. Where does massive energy dissipate? Harmlessly outside the building: single point earth ground. No protector does protection. Either it connects massive energy to earth. Or it does nothing while failing inside the building.

Any protector that fails does no protection. Grossly undersizing that circuit gets the naive to recommend the scam. A surge too small to overwhelm protection already inside every appliance can destroy the grossly undersized protector. Then the most naive assume, "My protector sacrificed itself to save my computer." A perfect example of classic junk science reasoning. Appliance protected itself from a tiny surge that easily destroyed the scam protector. Grossly undersized because damage gets the most naive to recommend it.

Surge protection means a protector that costs about $1 per protected appliance. That is located as close as possible to single point ground (ie breaker box). That one protector 'system' protects everything in the house ... including dishwasher, furnace, and the most important appliance during a surge - smoke detector. More responsible companies provide these 'whole house' protectors including General Electric, ABB, Siemens, Intermatic, Leviton, and Square D. A Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. This is how surge protection has been done for over 100 years. Technology is that well proven even for direct lightning strikes.

A minimal 'whole house' protector starts at 50,000 amps. Why? A typical direct lightning strike is 20,000 amps. Either that 20,000 amps is inside the building hunting for earth via appliances. And no protector stops that hunt once energy is inside. Or earth that 20,000 amps outside. Even the protector remains functional. But again, this is how it was done even 100 years ago. And this 100 years of well proven science is unknown to a majority who are reading this. A majority, instead, only know what scam advertising told them to believe.

What is also necessary to make a protector effective? Separation. Your telco's computer suffers about 100 surges with each thunderstorm. And no damage. The earthed protector is also located to be up to 50 meters (150 feet) from electronics. Separation is another reason why the 'whole house' protector is effective.

Protection is always about where that energy dissipates. Always - as in how it was done even 100 years ago. A protector is only are effective as its earth ground. If that protector does not have the always required short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth, then it is best called wasted money. No earth ground means no effective protection.

BTW, your attention should be on earth ground - what does the protection. Not on a protector.

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