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power conditioners y/n


leftwinger57

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I have a Richard Gray 400 conditioner. I got it used and my tube gear really seems to like it. The sound seems more grounded...sorry but I could not think of a better word. I do not hear a big difference but it does seem to knock some hard edges off the sound of some of my gear, especially my Conrad Johnson stuff. I have two friends that swear by their regeneration power supplies but these are way out of my budget.

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HI Westom,

I re-read your piece on the use of surge/pwr pro. I in my past lifetime was an security alarm installer and know all about

telco grounding and where's it's located. Problem is that I don't live in a detached house and have know idea where the phone co. is

picking up it's ground. With saying that, even cold water grounded and telco grounded have fried from lightening. So what's a guy to do,

unplug when a storms approaching or get one of these units. I've heard people talk of excess noise, I have no such problem. The only device in my

set up that's noisey is my cdp. Thanks for the response, I got it but it doesn't help here.

H/T----Tosiba au37----Yamaha rx v665 avr----Denon1940ci cdp----Klipsch 500 set w/ 8in pwrd sub -----Yamaha ysd11 dock

2--channel-----Adcom gfa555 amp---Onkyo p301 pre-----Denon 1940ci cdp---Dual 1219 turntable---Infinitys sm112s

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Now, how really important are they. I've seen Surgex and Monster units for$400 and more.

If we're being honest with ourselves...at that price point, not very important at all.

For $45 or less you can obtain an APC surge protector that also rejects line noise; it comes with a lifetime warranty, and an equipment protection policy of $150,000.

For $250 or less you can obtain an appropriately sized APC UPS system that rejects line noise, regulates, voltage, provides surge protection, and obviously a battery backup; it has a 3 year repair or replace warranty, and also has an equipment protection policy of $150,000.

So what does $400 buy you? From what I can tell, a really fancy looking exterior.

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If we're being honest with ourselves...at that price point, not very important at all.

Correct. Using no money, one can tie a knot in the wire for equivalent filtering. Why would anyone waste $45 to replace a knot? On an APC that claims no protection from destructive surges. That may even make appliance damage easier. Its filter can be replaced by a knot without spedning $45 or $400.

Why does this poster keep posting lies? Not even one spec number is provided. For example, had he bothered to read the fine print, then that $150,000 protection policy is obviously bogus. APC's warranties are chock full of exemptions. Either read before posting. Or learn from other's experience. From Holycow! on 8 Apr 2010:

> Had my computer system "protected" by an APC SurgeArrest, and it failed (my computer

> was fried). APC refused to repair or replace, which means that APC lies when they print on

> their packaging that they will repair or replace your equipment which their surge-stopping

> equipment fails to protect.

One is supposed to learn before posting. Some will continue to preach retail lies. He could simply read the fine print. He does not even do that. APC does not even claim effective protection. Minimal knowledge makes that obvious.

The superior and effective protector even from direct lightning strikes costs about $1 per appliance. Why does he recommend spending 45 times more money? Because retail advertising has told him how to think. Even a knot does filtering.

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On an APC that claims no protection from destructive surges.

"SurgeArrest components such as MOVs and Thermal fuse ensure
instantaneous reaction to lightning strikes and wiring faults. If the
surge components are damaged due to power spike or over voltage, excess
power cannot reach your equipment. Unlike the APC SurgeArrest products,
most surge suppressors continue to let power through even after circuits
have been damaged, leaving your equipment exposed to other damaging
surges."

Seems like they claim some semblance of protection.

http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=P11GTV&tab=features

Why does this poster keep posting lies?

You are responding to my first post on this thread.

APC's warranties are chock full of exemptions.

Of course it is. Would you lay out a blanket financial guarantee of your product without any conditions whatsoever?

From Holycow! on 8 Apr 2010:

Ahh the beauty of heresay over the internet.

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"SurgeArrest components such as MOVs and Thermal fuse ensure instantaneous reaction to lightning strikes and wiring faults. If the surge components are damaged due to power spike or over voltage, excess power cannot reach your equipment. " Seems like they claim some semblance of protection.

At what point is near zero any protection? Of course it will respond instantaneously – while the exact same current is also flowing through the adjacent appliance How electricity works. The same current exists everywhere in that surge path - simultaneously. Everything is responding instantaneously. Does that mean protection? If 500 amps is passing through the protector, then 500 amps is also passing through the amplifier – instantaneously. Where is the protection? Where is this magic component that blocks a surge? Somehow a 2 cm part will stop what 3 miles of sky could not? Obviously they are not preaching to people who ask damning questions. It is called propaganda. No different than what Saddam told his people to believe. The difference is they had to believe it. You have an option to ask damning questions based in science and common sense. Yes it does claim to do something. 345 joules inside a UPS will somehow absorb a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules? It will it absorbed something – near zero - instantaneously. Therefore it DID provide some protection. Near zero is some. At what point do you add common sense? That citation even posted no numbers. So it is probably lying. Then when we add the missing numbers. It is definitively lying. Lying is legal in sales brochures. Sooner or later, every consumer will finally learn that lesson. Now, what does the power strip protector do? Take any meter. Measure the connection. There is only wire between a surge and the appliance. What disconnects during a surge? The protector parts. The appliance is left connected to that surge. Reality again contradicts that sales brochure – that was written to intentionally deceive you. See that protector with a light reporting failure? The protector components were compoletely disconnected. And power still flows to the appliance – contradicting what your citation claims. Grossly undersize a protector. It will instantaneously disconnect protector parts. Leaves excess power connected to appliances.. Fortunately, all appliances already contain serious protection. A surge too small to damage appliances, instead, easily destroyed a grossly undersized (high profit) protector. Then the most naive will convert assumption into fact. "My protector sacrificed itself to save my computer". Reality: the surge was too small to even harm his computer. Destroyed protector promotes more sales – but only among the most naive. Sometimes a protector circuit does not disconnect fast enough. Most every fire department has seen these scary pictures. Even explained by a Fire Marshall: http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554

http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm

http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html

http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol entitled "Surge Protector Fires"

http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/

http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/lesson-learned/surgeprotectorfire.htm

http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339 It is called propaganda. It works on those who want to be scammed. How does that 2 cm part stop what three miles of sky could not? You said it does. Therefore you post the answer. No reply is how you admit to being scammed. How does that 2 cm part stop all that? That APC has the same circuit found in Monster Cable for $400 or in the grocery store protector for $7. Don’t take my word for it. Read the only thing you should have been reading – manufacturer numeric specs.

When will you read (and discuss) hard facts? Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Always. With numbers. Where does APC discuss energy? Honesty (and numbers) would harm profits. They are selling to the most naive – who never demand facts with numbers. APC avoids this reality. Protection is always about where energy dissipates (what you again refuse to discuss). A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

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Ahh the beauty of heresay over the internet.

Which is every one of your posts. How does that 2 cm part inside the APC stop what three miles of sky could not? You made the claim. You cited APC as proof. How does that 2 cm part disconnects and stops what even wooden church steeples cannot stop? The word is scam. Tell someone what to believe - without numbers. And he will preach it as the new miracle product.

Take a $3 power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts. Those who never ask damning questions based in common sense will promote it. How do those ten cent parts stop surges? It doesn't. Lying in sales brochures is legal.

The warranty's fine print says it will not be honored. Why would a $150,000 warranty be honored when their protector does not even claim to do surge protection? The warranty is obviously bogus to anyone who first read it. So why do you keep posting hearsay - and no manufacturer spec numbers? Are you an APC employee? Or just never learned the difference between hard facts and retail propaganda.

How does that 2 cm part stop what three miles of sky could not. Your reputation is attached to your claim whilch also forgot to add numbers. Please explain why you know this when engineers and science for 100 years did not.

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When I started to work for a different security co. their technique to deter lightening was to ty knots in the rj-31 jack cord.I just couldn't stop laughing

at the thought that a few knots would stop anything no less lightening. Knots in cords to this day , I'm still stupifidied that it would do anything but make a mess of your rig or panel.....lw

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When I started to work for a different security co. their technique to deter lightening was to ty knots in the rj-31 jack cord.I just couldn't stop laughing

Now read numbers for fitlers inside power strip protectors. Equivalent filtering. Smarter is to spend no money. Have filtering by tying knots in wires.

Because it claims filtering in sales brochure hype, so many know it must have massive fitering. Near zero filtering from a knot or inside the protector accomplishes same. Increases profits by promoting to the most naive. And near zero surge protection that violates well proven science from even 100 years ago.

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Lets just get right to the point shall we:

Courtesy of How Stuff Works, a Discovery Channel Company.

Wow!. Obviously, if posting from in knowledge, then you said how a 2 cm part stops what three miles of sky could not. Citing HowStuffWorks says - in spades - you have no idea how electricity works.

HowStuffWorks is full of myths and outright lies. A reference to it was quickly removed from Wikipedia just for that reason. So full of myths that these long posts will only discuss mistakes on the first pages on 17 Nov 2003 entitled "Inside a surge protector": http://tinyurl.com/2fy7u

Or again in "Is my surge protector good?" on 8 Oct 2002 at: http://tinyurl.com/3bn64

It takes so little knowledge to ask damning questions. For example, if refrigerators are creating destructive surges as HowSurgeWorks claims, then how many times a day do you troop to hardware stores to replace dimmer switches, digital clocks, smoke detectors, and clock radios? You are not because HowStuffWorks lied. Those surges do not exist. But even worse, you could not think for yourself. Instead you repeatedly cite popular myths. And never once ask simple damning questions.

You post without discussing where energy dissipates. You cannot. Too much knowledge from retail scams. Concepts of how surge protection works from 100 years ago - you still never mention the well proven science.

A fact that says you are recommending without any knowledge. Your own APC citation says that 2 cm part stops what three miles of sky could not. You did not even see that obvious myth. And then you were asked to explain it. You ignored the damning question rather than admit to more APC deception. Like so many who create problems, you cite others without once bothering to ask any damning questions. Without demanding numbers. How does that few hundred joules in an APC UPS absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? Why do you also ignore that question? Because it is based in facts with numbers.

How many times need I ask how your 2 cm part magically stops what three miles of sky could not? You cite HowStuffWorks due to virtually no electrical knowledge. You foolishly recommended protectors that do not even have an always required short connection to earth. How does that 2 cm part stop what three miles of sky could not? Question asked 15 times so that you can ignore it. Where are those APC spec numbers that claim protection from each type of surge. Questions that identify which people are most easily scammed by APC and Monster.

Wow! I did not realize how little electrical knowledge you possess. A fact made so obvious by citing HowStuffWorks. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. But that is science well understood even 100 years ago.

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Citing HowStuffWorks says - in spades - you have no idea how electricity works.

Clearly. Citing a website owned by Discovery (and what I would define as a credible source) that is dedicated to illustrating in easy to understand terms how things work was foolish of me. Obviously they are nothing compared to the knowledge of westom.

HowStuffWorks is full of myths and outright lies.

Obviously. The charlatans.

Link doesn't work. Try again?

Another dead link.

You post without discussing where energy dissipates.

Through the safety ground via the MOVs, if you had bothered to read the article.

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Through the safety ground via the MOVs, if you had bothered to read the article.

Obviously that is not true even from concepts taught in the first engineering class. First the scam defined. Later, how reality works. Due to engineering facts posted here such as 'less than ten feet'. Concept is wire impedance. An effective protector connects hundreds of thousands of joules (numbers not provided in HowStuffWorks) within feet of single point earth ground (also not discussed in HowStuffWorks). Via wire that also has no sharp bends, no splices, is separated from other non-grounding wires, is not inside metallic conduit, etc. Also important requirements not discussed in HowStuffWorks and other urban myth sources.

Wire impedance. For example, let's say a power strip protector is 50 feet of wire from the breaker box and within feet of electronics. It must conduct a trivial 100 amp surge. That wire is less than 0.2 ohms resistance and something like 120 ohms impedance to a surge. How does that tiny 100 amp surge get to earthed when 100 amps times 120 ohms: is less than 12,000 volts? It doesn't. The protector and adjacent electronics at less than 12,000 volts – a surge hunting for some other destructive path to earth. This happens because that energy was permitted inside the building. Earthing one ‘whole house’ protector eliminates all this. But that means you learn from 100 years of well proven science – not from the myths selling a high profit APC.

For example, one IEEE brochure shows a power strip protector earthing a surge 8000 volts through a nearby TV. Protector too close to electronics and too far from earth ground. Effective protectors are within feet of single point earth ground (every one of those four words has engineering significance). Concepts never discussed where scam are promoted such as in HowStuffWorks.

Your telco's computer is threatened by about 100 surges with each thunderstorm. Why do they not have surge damage? All wires first go into underground vaults where a 'whole house' protector connects within feet of earth ground (why does HowStuffWorks not discuss this). Telcos want their protectors up to 50 meters distant from electronics. Wire impedance is also why superior protection is separated from electronics.

What happens if a protector attempts to earth a surge via the safety ground? Surge is induced on all other wires. More wires to find earth destructlvely via appliances. Why does HowStuffWorks not discuss any of this? These concepts were well understood even 100 years ago. Once that energy is inside, then nothing can stop a destructive hunt for earth. Nothing. Either energy dissipates harmlessly outside the buildling. Or no effective protection exist.

Now you contradict your APC citation. Instead claim that a protector connects to earth via safety grounds. Your own APC citation said, "If the surge components are damaged due to power spike or over voltage, excess power cannot reach your equipment. " Which is it? Does a protector work by connecting a surge 12,000 volts to earth via safety ground? Or does it work as APC says by disconnecting from a surge? Why do you own citations even contradict each other? Because they are all myths directed at the most naïve among us. For over 100 years, every facility that cannot have damage did not waste money on that APC / Monster Cable scam. In every case, effective protection is always about a short connection to single point earth ground.

Essential to surge protection is the only thing that does protection - single point earth ground. Same concept pioneered by Dr Ufer so that direct lightning strikes to munitions dumps cause no explosions. No protector does protection. Either the protection makes a short ('low impedance') connection to earth. Of the protector is doing zero protection - ie your APC recommendation.

Why does APC not list protection from each type of surge - in numbers? Why do you still not explain how a 2 cm part stops what three miles of sky could not - as your APC citation said? Why do you (and HowStuffWorks) not discuss single point ground? Or wire impedance? Why do facilities that can never have surge damage also never waste money on your APC recommendations? Why does your HowStuffWorks not provide any numbers? Why does HowStuffWorks not discuss hundreds of thousands of joules or 20,000 amps? Then you might grasp the scam.

Why does every facility that can never have damage spend less money on protectors; more money on earthing? Because no protector does surge protection. APC puts ten cent protector parts in a $3 power strip. Then sells it for $45. It is called a profit center. No wonder Monster is selling the same protector circuit for $150. They all know you will believe myths such as HowStuffWorks. And ignore 100 years of well proven science.

Next post is for those who would learn reality. To have effective protection for tens or 100 times less money.

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Through the safety ground via the MOVs, if you had bothered to read the article.

Decide to stop taking offense. Admit to the scam. Then start learning science – and numbers. One highly regarded source is Polyphaser's application notes. Polyphaser is an industry benchmark known to those who actually know about surge protection. Polyphaser is virtually unknown where knowledge comes from scams. Polyphaser's app notes are at: http://www.polyphaser.com/technical_notes.aspx

Another engineering app note that demonstrates these concepts is: http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/technotes/tncr002.pdf Notice that every wire inside every incoming cable (including buried cables) must make that short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to single point earth ground. That is how it was done even 100 years ago.

I believe you will ignore all this. Your attitude of citing sales brochures, urban myths, and claims made without numbers suggest you only believe the first thing told, never ask damning questions, and get angry rather than admit you have been scammed. How many protection system have you designed so that even direct lightning strikes cause no damage? IOW you are being used as a sounding board so that others can learn. So that others can have superior surge protection for about $1 per protected applaince.

In every case, the responsible sources always define how hundreds of thousands of joules make a low voltage connection to single point earth ground. Even a ground wire with sharp bends means higher impedance and perverted protection (electrical concepts ignored by HowStuffWorks).

Provided previously were scary pictures of plug-in protectors even threatening house fires - because undersizing promotes sales. Even provided is what every homneowner should inspect in their primary surge protection system (above discusses the secondary system). Defined were why all electronics contain protection superior to anything that might be attached to its power cord.

Exposed was a myth of filters inside surge protectors (and magic wire knots). Requested were manufacturer spec numbers that claim that protection - nobody could provide specs because APC et al claims no such protection. Requested was how you know APC's 2 cm part stops surges. After all APC made that claim without spec numbers. No numbers - a first indication that they (and HowStuffWorks) are lying.Expose was another popular myth that blackouts and voltage variations are destructive or eliminate by surge protection. Defines is what all minimally sufficient surge protectors do - earth 50,000 amps without failure. IOW earth even direct lightning strikes so that nobody even knew a surge existed.

Exposed is an obvious myth - the $150,000 warranty that clearly will never be honored. A warranty hyped in big numbers because the most naive will believe it without reading the fine print. So much time devoted to accusations and junk science reasoning. And still nobody is asking about the only thing that always provides surge protection - single point earth ground.

Why do those with technical knowledge spend so much time on earthing? Why is the best surge protection system installed before the footing are even poured? Should anyone be asking to learn facts rather than cite retail propaganda, then others will learn about a science defined over 100 years ago.

Why do munitions dumps, commercial broadcasting stations, telephone exchanges, airports, ships, and even cars suffer direct lightning strikes without damage? In every case, protection is always about the path to earth ground. And still so many will cite obvious junk sciience from APC and HowStuffWorks rather than learn how it was done even 100 years ago. Why does Monster sell the same APC type protector for $150? Why is the same protector circuit selling in grocery stores for $7 - at a profit? Because so many automatically believe what they are told especially when claims are subjective - no facts; no numbers.

Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Repsonsible citations discuss this every time. APC is the same protector defined by this NIST (US government research agency) discussion:

> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by diverting the surges to
> ground. The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.


What has no earth ground and will not even discuss it? APC. No earth ground means no effective protection - APC, Monster, et al. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

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Meh, I'm done arguing.

It's one thing to say APC's marketing is mostly hype. It's a whole other ball of wax to say the whole industry is out to bilk us, and even benign entities like HowStuffWorks/Discovery are out to sucker us into the scam. Heck, even the "mythbusters" at Audioholics never got into busting this one like they do with most things that are objectively full of BS.

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It's one thing to say APC's marketing is mostly hype. It's a whole other ball of wax to say the whole industry is out to bilk us, and even benign entities like HowStuffWorks/Discovery are out to sucker us into the scam.

The industry sector that promotes scams so successfully are names that can afford massive retail advertising. When selling a $3 power strip with ten cent parts for $150, then money buys public opinion (as ongoing on TV this week). Money means technical lies are believed by a majority.

In facilities that can never have damage, an employee may even get fired for installing that APC. When direct lightning strikes cause no damage, then find products from a vast majority of the protection industry. Names rarely known to a public only educated by advertising. Cited was an industry benchmark - Polyphaser. Most who were only educated by retail propaganda never heard of Polyphaser.

APC is recommended only by soundbyte myths and other lies. Provided were paragraph after paragraph of why an APC is ineffective. Why APC does not even claim protection in their numeric specifications. With sources, basic electronic concepts even taugh to first semester engineers, what is done anywhere that surge damage cannot happen, and reams of technical history. A superior solution also costs tens or 100 times less money. To even protect from direct lightning strikes. And still you would deny because it contradicts popular hearsay. Well Saddam had WMDs for the exact same reason.

Responsible companies sell one 'whole house' protector to protect everything. Surge protection means your furnace, clock radio, bathroom GFCI, and refrigerator are also protected. What is most important to protect during a surge? Smoke detector. Again, the one 'whole house' protector even protects that. And for so much less money. But that means you must learn the science. That means you must do something so difficult - admit that retail advertising easily promotes scams.

Responsible companies include General Electric, Square D, ABB, Keison, Clipsal, Siemens, Intermatic, and Leviton to name but a few. An effective Cutler-Hammer (Eaton) 'whole house' protector sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. Those most trained only in retail myths would be hearing about these well proven products for the first time. What does every effective protector connect to? Single point earth ground. But again, what does every responsible poster discuss? Where does energy harmlessly dissipate? A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - which APC must not discuss to protect obscene profits.

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Looks like I might need to eat a little crow here. Happens from time to time.

Upon further research, westom is right...to an extent. Actually even HowStuffWorks doesn't claim surge protectors can defend against a direct lightning strike, as stated "On the other end you have systems costing hundreds or even thousands of
dollars, which will protect against pretty much everything short of
lightning striking nearby."

Of course, that doesn't validate westom's claims that most surge protectors are utterly worthless either; just that they do obviously have limits.

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Of course, that doesn't validate westom's claims that most surge protectors are utterly worthless either; just that they do obviously have limits.

I never said plug-in protectors are utterly worthless. But in a situation where attacks (not questions based in curiosity) exist, then what I am saying can easily become distorted. Plug-in protectors protect from transients that are typically not destructive. The basic device is an inexpensive case with some ten cent protector parts inside. If being sold honestly, then these devices would sell for a few dollars. But they are not being sold honestly. What should sell for dollars is hyped; sold even for hundreds of dollars.

An IEEE Standard (IEEE makes recommendations in Standards) defines a 'whole house' protector. "Even this means is not positive, providing only 99.5-99.9% protection." A plug-in protector might provide another 0.2% protection.

The point. One properly earthed 'whole house' protector is about 99.5% protection costing about $1 per appliance. To obtain an additional 0.2% protection, one might buy a plug-in protector for maybe $45 per appliance. Or Monster has sold them for $150. It is not utterly worthless. It just makes no financial sense. Especially when destructive surges occur typically once every seven years.

A minimally sized 'whole house' protector starts at 50,000 amps. Some undersized ones are 10,000 or 20,000 amps. Those would be insufficient for typically destructive surges. A direct lightning strike to utility wires down the street is, potentially, a direct lightning strike to all household appliances. Other surge sources (ie high voltage lines dropping on local distribution) are also made irrelevant by earthing only one 'whole house' protector. A protector must be sized to earth each such surge. And remain functional. This most effective solution costs about $1 per protected appliance. A protector that fails on any surge provides no effective protection. An effective protector does not stop, absorb, or block surges. Obviously, it must always divert massive energy harmlessly to earth. It does what Ben Franklin demonstrated in 1752.

For over 100 years, protectors were earthed so that even direct lightning strikes cause no damage. Longitudinal transients are why every incoming wire must be earthed before entering a building; either directly or via a protector. So that nothing inside is damaged even by direct lightning strikes. A protector for AC mains costs about $1 per protected appliance. A similar protector for telephones was already installed for free by your telco; even many generations ago.

Final point. Protection was never about the protector. Protection is always defined by single point earth ground. Some protection ‘systems’ exist without any protector. But in every case, that ‘system’ always has earth ground. Every layer of protection is defined by the ‘system component’ that does protection – single point earth ground – where energy harmlessly dissipates.

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Counterpoint:

http://www.ask-the-electrician.com/whole-house-surge-protector.html

"According to Dr. Richard Cohen, a Senior Member of
the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE), “The
importance of tiered protection cannot be underestimated. Lightning and
surge protection experts from IEEE, the National Institute of
Standards and Technology, and the Electric Power Research Institute
have known for years that the combined use of quality protectors at the
building entrance, and appropriate plug-in protectors at the point of
use can virtually eliminate all damage from lightning and surges
. This
knowledge is critical, but has not yet been broadly distributed. For
this reason, the IEEE has designated a special group, which I am
leading, to prepare an Application Guide on residential protection."


Providing protection at the point of
entry requires an electrician-installed point-of-entry surge arrestor
where power enters the residence from the utility. Surge arrestors
limit surge voltage by conducting large surge currents safely to ground.
However, because the voltages that pass through surge arrestors are
sometimes too large to protect electronic equipment, they should be
supplemented by plug-in Transient Voltage Surge Suppressors (TVSSs)
where the equipment is located."

Emphasis added obviously mine. Thoughts?

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