power conditioners y/n

[StephenM]

One other thought:

A protector for AC mains costs about $1 per protected appliance.

one might buy a plug-in protector for maybe $45 per appliance.

It seems to me this analysis is faulty. Yes, a "whole house" protector can be had for $50. However, it also seems that I would have to hire someone to actually install said protector, driving up the cost.

Moreover, that $45 MSRP protector can obviously accomodate more than one device.

[CECAA850]

I had lightning hit the metal flashing on my chimney once while I was home. Talk about scary. I doubt whole house protection would have helped me as the surge never went through my electrical wiring. It did however jump somehow into my cable and phone wiring. It smoked the cable wiring at my TV and melted down an answering machine and phones. It also took out a motion detector light on my garage. The light stayed permanently on until it was replaced.

[westom]

Moreover, that $45 MSRP protector can obviously accomodate more than one device.

Yes, I could have expanded the text about 4 times longer to take into account every little detail. But most plug-in protectors are only for one or two appliances. And these things sell for anywhere from $20 to $150. It still averages out to something like $50 per appliance.

A 'whole house' protector costs less than $50 in Lowes, et al. I did not say 'protection' which is a completely different word. That word 'protection' unfortunately shares too many letters with something completely different - a protector. Too many people do not appreciate the difference.

A 'whole house' protector and necessary earth ground wire is sold in Lowes and Home Depot because most any informed homeowner can install it. If not, then one must hire a professional. Again, details that were not provided because too many other more relevant facts had already created excessively long posts. Many people cannot get past a few paragraphs.

Provided previously were numbers for your IEEE reference. Yes, both plug-in and 'whole house' protectors are recommended. One 'whole house' to eliminate 99.5% of surges. And plug-in protectors for an additional 0.2%.

Meanwhile, in locations that must never have damage, they still use no plug-in protectors. Only earth 'whole house' solutions. Then protection already inside electronics is not overwhelmed. Even 40 years ago, standards for 120 volt electronics were no damage even from 600 volt transients. Today, computers are routinely designed for 2000 and in some cases 15,000 volt transients without damage. Some of that protection was even required in Intel ATX specs. Protection recommended by some is already inside some appliances. But protection already inside every appliance is compromised if the 'whole house' protector is missing.

Another way to view it. Point of use is supplementary protection. If the 'whole house system' is not installed, then 'point of use' protection does nothing effective. Also not discussed - this is the secondary protection 'system'. Homeowners should also inspect the other protection layer - the 'primary' surge protection system.

Numbers - one 'whole house' protector for 99% protection. With that and no plug-in protectors, then the same IEEE Standard also defines another number

:> Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from one stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per
> 6000 years ...

Does one really need to spend $2000 more for a 0.2% additional protection?

And again, my final point defined what is far more important. Single point earth ground. Earth ground can easily be installed wrong by an electrician who earths only as code requires. Electricians are trained in code that only defies human safety. So that the same system can perform transistor safety requires additional care that many electricians are not trained to understand. Earthing is so critically important. Ground must both meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical Code requirements. :Protectors are simple science. Earthing is the art. Earthing gets ignored, in part, because most people completely forget about what they do not see.

For example, what makes Ben Franklin's lightning rods effective? Everyone will argue pointed vs blunt. Minor (even though science has demonstrated that blunt is superior). People will argue over what they see. Effectiveness of a lightning rod is defined mostly by what is buried in earth. Mostly by what people do not see and therefore ignore. Just another example of why protection is mostly about earth ground. If this discussion was 'sized' by what was important, then the protector discussion was dwarfed by so many more posts about earthing.

Protector is a minor aspect of protection. The most important 'system' component in every protection system is the earthing.

[westom]

I had lightning hit the metal flashing on my chimney once while I was home. Talk about scary. I doubt whole house protection would have helped me as the surge never went through my electrical wiring.

Surge damage is the electrical path that a cloud used to connect to earth. In your case, it found an electrical conductor into your building - chimney bricks. Yes, a conductor.

Now what was the path to earth? Once that chimney connected the surge inside the house, then that surge is seeking earth destructively via appliances. So what incoming wires already have properly earthed protection? Telephone and cable TV. That surge was inside hunting for earth via appliances. So a best path to earth can be destructively via telephone and cable TV appliances. Incoming on AC electric. Outgoing via those other wires.

Those who *know* only using observation will assume the surge was incoming on the cable and telephone. Notice a completely different conclusion once we add facts from the well proven science.

Most surges enter on wires that stretch out all over the neighborhood - AC electric. Whereas you may suffer a surge every seven years, the telco CO (switching computer) is threatened by about 100 surges with each storm. It connects to even more wires. IOW, the most important protection system involves earthing surges on the most common incoming source. AC electric and other wires.

A far less often source of surges is your building strike. So less often that most buildings have no lightning rods. Apparently you would be advised to install one. Or to earth a TV antenna attached to that chimney. A lightning rod is only doing the same thing that a 'whole house' protector does. Connect the cloud to earth on a conductive, shorter, and non-destructive path. 'Whole house' protector is earthed for the most common source of surge damage. Lightning rod is earthed for a less common (but just as destructive) surge path.

You had damage because a surge was permitted inside your building. Apparently your house also needs an earthed lightning rod as well as a 'whole house' protector. But again, what provides protection? What was the path taken by an electric current to earth? That path to earth must never be inside the building.

[StephenM]

But most plug-in protectors are only for one or two appliances. And these things sell for anywhere from $20 to $150. It still averages out to something like $50 per appliance.

It can average to $50 per appliance; a $45 APC unit that accommodates my TV, receiver, subwoofer, cable box, DVD player, and Playstation gives me a more palatable price per device protected.

A 'whole house' protector and necessary earth ground wire is sold in Lowes and Home Depot because most any informed homeowner can install it. If not, then one must hire a professional.

I probably have the skills to do so, but lets be realistic here. We're talking about something where a professional touch wouldn't hurt, and the majority of people would likely turn to an electrician. In either case, it takes a time or money cost, versus just plugging in a conventional protector.

Even 40 years ago, standards for 120 volt electronics were no damage even from 600 volt transients. Today, computers are routinely designed for 2000 and in some cases 15,000 volt transients without damage. Some of that protection was even required in Intel ATX specs.

And yet Dr. Richard Cohen of the IEEE still recommends a plug in protector along with a whole house protector. Why? If they are simply not necessary with the addition of a whole house system, why would he still make that suggestion?

Does one really need to spend $2000 more for a 0.2% additional protection?

$2000? No. But I don't see it as a great waste to spend say $100 to protect the most vulnerable and expensive pieces of electronics.

Another way to view it. Point of use is supplementary protection. If the 'whole house system' is not installed, then 'point of use' protection does nothing effective.

Curious. The way I read the quote was that the two methods complement each other, and that one does not take the place of the other.

[westom]

Curious. The way I read the quote was that the two methods complement each other, and that one does not take the place of the other.

Basically, what you read was a soundbyte summary. It means nothing if not combined with so many other facts and fundamental knowledge. For example, in the reply to CECAA850 is reference to longitudinal transient. That concept, so important, says why a plug-in protector by itself does virtually nothing. IOW a plug-in protector addresses imperfections in how every wire connects to single point ground. Protection already inside appliances addresses same. Better earthing means less imperfections - solving the problem at the source.

So why do serious facilities that never have damage also not use plug-in protectors? They make grounds better. Where is the best place to divert more money? Divert money away from plug-in protectors. Instead, upgrade earthing.

Why does Dr Cohen not discuss the difference between protection already inside appliances and the plug-in protector? Because they are, for all practical purposes, same.

You don't need plug-in protection on expensive appliances. Those already have some of the best protection inside the building. If you need plug-in protectors on them, then you need plug-in protectors on everything. Including dimmer switches and the dishwasher. Either you have protection - which means no damage - or you do not. What most needs protection during a surge? Smoke detector. That is the point. Far more useful and so much less expensive is to get earthing done right. Being an electrician does not mean he understands this type of electricity - how to do it right. Electricians are taught mostly about wiring for human safety.

For example, a 200 watt transmitter connects to an antenna. Does that mean the antenna is 100 volts everywhere on that antenna? Of course not. That means one part of the same wire is well over 100 volts. And another section is zero volts. How can this be if it is all the same wire? Another example of electrical concepts that electricians need not know. Concepts that you should know before reading technical articles. And that are so relevant when upgrading earth ground to provide surge protection.

Again, that final point is repeated again. Your every post should be about what is more relevant. How to install and upgrade what makes all protection systems effective - single point earth ground. This in part because you do not demonstrate the necessary background information to even appreciate why earthing is so critical. Why plug-in protectors are so ineffective without an earthed 'whole house' protector. Why plug-in protectors would only be 0.2% of the protection system. And why plug-in protectors are only supplementary protection; not complementary protection.

Repeated is a concept that should be reflected in your every post. No earth ground means no effective protection. Protection is always about where energy dissipates - not about a protector. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

It applies to surge protectors today as it applied over 100 years ago. And it applies to what Franklin demonstrated in 1752 when he did surge protection without protectors. Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Protection is not found in isolated citations or boxes. Necessary to understand what is only supplementary protection in Dr Cohen/s soundbyte summary. In everything you cite about surge protection, either it discusses earth ground explicitly. Or you are expected to already understand ‘that’ most relevant concept. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

[StephenM]

Why does Dr Cohen not discuss the difference between protection already inside appliances and the plug-in protector? Because they are, for all practical purposes, same.

And what kind of question is this? Why would Dr. Cohen mention plug-in protectors at all if every appliance was adequately protected already? He specifically stated a multi-tiered approach is necessary for the best possible protection, and part of that approach was plug-in protectors.There is no real way to misconstrue this.

Tell you what, you keep posting paragraph after paragraph. Why don't you try posting a link to a reputable source comparable with Dr. Cohen or even HowStuffWorks which explains why plug in protectors are a waste of money, and provide absolutely no protection that isn't already built into appliances/computers/etc. I'm not talking about some anonymous internet paper, but something by a verifiable source with appropriate credentials. I want to see something like how Audioholics busts speaker wire. Otherwise it's a lot of hot air and no substance.

[westom]

Why would Dr. Cohen mention plug-in protectors at all if every appliance was adequately protected already?

Nobody said every appliance was adequately protected. How many times will you avoid the relevant facts? Earth ground.

How can I make this any simpler? Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. How do hundreds of joules in an ineffective plug-in protector make hundreds of thousands of joules just magically disappear? You were asked this too many times. You tell me. Show me a summary where hundreds of thousands of joules just magically disappears. You cannot. No plug-in protector claims that protection - not one.

IEEE numbers were provided. A plug-in protector does maybe 0.2% protection. To have 99.5% protection means earthing one 'whole house' protector. It is that simple. A plug-in protector is only supplementary protection; regardless of how you 'feel'. To understand why means learning about a longitudinal transient. Hard facts. But that means learning about impedance and earth ground. Why do you avidly avoid the only thing that does protection - earth ground?

Since you know a plug-in protector can make hundreds of thousands of joules disappear, then explain those scary pictures. Potential house fire when a grossly undersized protector is destroyed by a surge. Where does energy dissipate? Why does one 'whole house' protector do 99.5% protection? If you avoid these questions, then earth ground (the solution) will go away?

What would protect many plug-in protectors? One 'whole house' protector.

Why did you ignore Polyphaser's app notes? Polyphaser also discusses how surge protection is done - and earth ground? http://www.polyphaser.com/technical_notes.aspx

So many responsible sources define the always required solution. For example, Sun Microsystems' "Planning guide for Sun Server room" says:

> Section 6.4.7 Lightning Protection:

> Lightning surges cannot be stopped, but they can be diverted. The plans for the data center should

> be thoroughly reviewed to identify any paths for surge entry into the data center. Surge arrestors can

> be designed into the system to help mitigate the potential for lightning damage within the data center.

> These should divert the power of the surge by providing a path to ground for the surge energy.

Sun also defines protection in terms of earth ground. Clearly they must be lying? So you also ignore them?

How does a 'magic box' protector make hundreds of thousands of joules just magically disappear without earth ground? How many joules in that APC protector? Hundreds? Where is the protection? Those are numbers. Damning numbers.

Or discuss another professional source. Why does the NIST define a protector without earthing ineffective? The NIST (US government research agency) says:

> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by diverting the surges to

> ground. The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.

I defined that APC as ineffective. NST calls it useless. Could the NIST be any blunter?

If asking to learn, then you already read and asked about the widely praised Polyphaser app notes:

http://www.polyphaser.com/technical_notes.aspx

Or from the US Air Force:

> 15. Surge Protection.

> 15.1. Entering or exiting metallic power, intrusion detection, communication antenna, and instrumentation lines

> must have surge protection sized for lightning surges to reduce transient voltages to a harmless level. Install the

> surge protection as soon as practical where the conductor enters the interior of the facility. Devices commonly

> used for this include metal oxide varistors, gas tube arresters, and transzorbs.

Also essential for appliance protection is inspecting the 'primary' protection system. You even ignored that fact. Why? What is your agenda here? When do you ask about the 'primary' surge protection system? Or read what professionals say:

From the IEEE Red Book:

> In actual practice, lightning protection is achieve by the process of interception of lightning produced surges,

> diverting them to ground, and by altering their associated wave shapes.

From the IEEE Emerald Book:

> It is important to ensure that low-impedance grounding and bonding connections exist among the telephone and

> data equipment, the ac power system's electrical safety-grounding system, and the building grounding electrode

> system. ...

> Failure to observe any part of this grounding requirement may result in hazardous potential being developed

> between the telephone (data) equipment and other grounded items

Perchance, when does a trend become obvious?

Or a very first conclusion in Dr Martzloff's IEEE paper. A plug-in (point of connection) protector may even make surge damage easier:

> Conclusion:

> 1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly show objectionable difference in reference voltages. These occur

> even when or perhaps because, surge protective devices are present at the point of connection of appliances.

Why does your APC not claim surge protection even in its numeric specifications? Why does it not discuss each type of surge? Why does APC avoid all discussion of earth ground? If you are not here promoting APC products, then your questions were about what does surge protection. Can I make it any easier? A protector is only as effective as what? Earth ground. What a plug-in protector does not connect to and must avoid discussing to protect obscenely profitable sales.

[StephenM]

Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules.

Some are, and as I've conceeded, those require something more robust than a point of use surge protector. However, smaller surges can still be rather destructive to electronic equipment, especially over time. Such surges may be below the (relatively high) clamping capacity of your whole house protector, but be caught by the point of service protector. Do you prefer if Siemens, another reputable brand you mentioned, explains it?

http://www.sea.siemens.com/us/Products/Residential-Electrical/Product/Surge-Protection/Pages/Surge_Protection_at_Home_Implementing_the_Right_Line_of_Defense.aspx

"The second line of defense is the point of use. Here, homeowners can
reinforce the protection provided by a point-of-entry protection device
by installing surge protectors (strips) that plug into grounded wall
receptacles where sensitive electronic equipment is located. These
devices defend electronic components against surges from outside, and
internally generated transient events (surges) that travel through AC
power lines and phone, data, and coaxial lines. The plug-in protectors
generally have much lower limiting voltages than entry protectors, and
provide better protection for electronic equipment."

Why did you ignore Polyphaser's app notes? Polyphaser also discusses how surge protection is done - and earth ground? http://www.polyphaser.com/technical_notes.aspx

Because unfortunately your link only takes me to http://www.protectiongroup.com/Home which is simply a home page with no pertinent information. Seems to be a recurring habit with you, a lot of dead end links with nothing to back up your blathering.

IEEE numbers were provided.

IEEE numbers with no citation were provided. Conversely I provided a direct quote from a senior IEEE member stating that both whole house surge protectors and point of use surge protectors were recommended.

So once again, I challenge you. Give me a citation from a verifiable, credentialed, third party source saying how plug in surge protectors are nothing but a giant scam. If you can't do this, I have nothing else to say. Goodnight troll.

[Groomlakearea51]

"Blathering"..... [] Haven't heard that one for a while.... [A]

This has, like predicted... become a case of Muhammed vs the Mountain....

[H]

[Groomlakearea51]

I just had a mas flashback.

and it was painful!!! [6] LOL!!!

[H]

[westom]

So once again, I challenge you. Give me a citation from a verifiable, credentialed, third party source saying how plug in surge protectors are nothing but a giant scam. If you can't do this, I have nothing else to say. Goodnight troll.

Troll? More cheapshots that further identify you as an APC promoter. Accusing without basic electrical knowledge says why you are now posting personal attacks. What must you avoid discussing? A short connection to single point ground is essential for protection from all types of surges. Where does energy from all surges big and small harmlessly dissipate? Without protector damage?

Troll? You are refusing to discuss 100 years of well proven science – ie earth ground. You refuse to discuss where energy magically disappears. You will not provide even one APC numeric spec that claims protection from surges. You refuse to discuss anything even related to earth ground. And now a lastest accusation. IEEE Standards – the Red Book, Green Book, Emerald Book – are not reliable and verifiable sources. Well of course not when knowledge comes only from your feelings.

Amazing. You feel small surges (noise) are so harmful when no reliable source will make that claim.

An IEEE Standard says a properly earthed 'whole house' protector does 99.5% protection. What does the APC do for tens or 100 times more money? At best, maybe 0.2% protection – supplementary protection. What is necessary so that supplementary protectors do not create house fires? Why do you ignore those scary pictures? Even a fire marshal said why plug-in protectors can create fire.

Since you are not selling APC products, then quotes from the IEEE Red Book, IEEE Green Book, and IEEE Emerald Book are not credible or verifiable sources? IEEE Standards are not credible? Where are those APC spec numbers that claim protection from each type of surge? Why so much silence ? Oh. Silence to avoid discussing earth ground. Silence also when asked, “Where does all that energy dissipate?” Silence when somehow a 2 cm part inside an APC protector magically stops what three miles of sky could not. Why so much silence? Ignore science. Invent myths and half truths … such as:

smaller surges can still be rather destructive to electronic equipment, especially over time. Such surges may be below the (relatively high) clamping capacity of your whole house protector, but be caught by the point of service protector.

An honest poster could and would list the component harmed by such trivial surges. You do neither.

Smaller transients (also called noise) are converted to electronic power. Noise (by rectification, filtering, etc) is converted to a high voltage (300+ V) radio wave. That high voltage is then converted to a stable, low voltage DC that powers electronics. An industry standard power supply circuit. What happens to your mythical destructive transient? Reality. Converted harmlessly to a stable DC current. Component damaged by noise is another urban myth based only in ‘feelings’ and hearsay.

Informed homeowners worry about surges that destroy undersized power strip protectors. And cause no appliance damage. Larger surges may overwhelm protection already inside every appliance. What can a homeowner do? Spend $thousands for plug-in protectors that only protects from typically non-destructive transients (the 0.2% of protection). Or spend less money for a protector that even earths direct lightning strikes – harmlessly (99.5% protection). The effective solution means nobody even knew a surge existed.. Informed homeowners install only one ‘whole house’ protector. And upgrade a critically most important component in every protection system. Single point earth ground.

Why do you constantly avoid all discussion about earth? That is what APC promoters are supposed to do.

Why do you avoid discussing the ‘primary’ surge protection system? Because every protection layer is defined by one thing – earth ground. ‘Secondary’ protection means earthing a ‘whole house’ protector at the breaker box or behind the meter. Connects even direct lightning strikes harmlessly to earth – and remains functional. Every protection layer is about what you avoid discussing – earth ground. And now post personal attacks to avoid that reality.

The utility installs a ‘primary’ surge protection system. Homeowners are advised to inspect what makes that protection layer so effective: A picture of what to inspect: http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

Avoid damning questions such as, “Why is earthing so critical to surge protection?”. ‘Primary’ protection is another subject that discusses what is always required for protection – earth ground. APC protector has no earthing and will not even claim protection in numbers. So you avoid every request for those APC specifications. Scams such as Saddam’s WMDs and plug-in protectors are easily promoted by these same techniques. How does that 2 cm part stop surges that even 3 miles of sky could not stop?

How to quickly identify a scam protector. 1) It has no wire for the dedicated and short (ie ‘less than 10 foot’) connection to single point ground. 2) Manufacturer avoids all discussion of earth ground – where energy must dissipate. 3) Where are those manufacturer spec numbers?

A protector is not protection. Protection is always about where energy dissipates. No earth ground means no effective protection. Science based in personal feelings or incendiary attacks will disprove over 100 years of well proven science? Subjective hearsay (without numbers) from HowStuffWorks is a credible source? No numbers were the first indication of junk science. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. All those thing you avoid - refuse to discuss - because you are promoting a scam protector.

[Groomlakearea51]

Maybe (seriously...) the discussion is now about apples and oranges.....

The original question posted had to do with conditioners, more so than protection, per. se. There is no argument that whole house, earth ground is the preferred protection scheme.

The issue that 99% of the time, the issue we face is not so much as lightning strikes, etc, but the rapidly fluctuating current voltage drops, surges, "dirty" power, etc. All of which is 160 volts or less, down to 80 volts, sudden power losses, brownouts, etc. While many reputable appliance and audio manufacturers have a protection scheme built in, those systems are generally designed to accomodate the ocassional "issue", and presume steady clean power from the wall....

This scenario is more and more often not the case with the power supplied by the power companies, and is often quite alarming in certain areas. I believe that regardless of whether they are good, bad or indifferent, a line conditioner, or even better, a conditioner that supplies true sine wave, stable (and uninterruptable...) power to sensitive (and expensive...) audio components is a good idea.

Is it demonstrable that the devices are inherently "good". In many instances yes, and factual basis for this assertion is certainly there. Case in point? Servers at the office.... A few years ago after continual non-lightning related "fried" pieces that were connected to the walls (comercial building code, earth ground, spikes and cables into the ground all over the place, etc. etc.), we shifted to 1500+VA battery back-up UPS's with good specs (clamping times, etc. meets all the IEEE or whatever specs). The problems stopped, completely. Computers are no different than expensive audio devices when it comes to these kind of problems.

Joules? the office UPS can handle about 600 and then clamps and requires a circuit breaker to be re-set. Mine? same thing, and since I started using these "devices", I have not had a single problem. Prior to the use of these devices (big ones...), every few months after the "regularly scheduled" local power company "event", a fast-blow fuse would do it's job on an amp or speakers and require replacing.

Lightning strikes notwithstanding, the issue for the common man (that's us...) is the power company voltage fluctuations and crappy power can and will eventually cause damage to pretty much anything other than the most simple appliances.

That is the issue I believe that is the point of the discussion for many Forum members.

Tom: In good faith, while I see, understand and value your points, the power between the wall and the amp still can be a problem for the reasons I cite.

I'm happy with my batteries.... I apparently need them in this locale....

[H]

[westom]

The original question posted had to do with conditioners, more so than protection, per. se. There is no argument that whole house, earth ground is the preferred protection scheme.

The issue that 99% of the time, the issue we face is not so much as lightning strikes, etc, but the rapidly fluctuating current voltage drops, surges, "dirty" power, etc. All of which is 160 volts or less, down to 80 volts, sudden power losses, brownouts, etc. While many reputable appliance and audio manufacturers have a protection scheme built in, those systems are generally designed to accomodate the ocassional "issue", and presume steady clean power from the wall....

Your question was answered about ten days ago - in a first post. Your worry about utility power is misplaced - a myth mostly promoted by those who invent fears - then sell obscenely profitaable cures to solve the myth.

So how often does your power vary so much that incandescent bulbs dim to 70% and 50% intensity? If your voltage is varying that much, then you need an electrician ASAP to fix what may be a serious human safety issue.

Meanwhile, a normal voltage to all electronics is even when incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. Anything a UPS would [do] must be done better in the power supply of all electronics.

What does that UPS do? Connects electronics directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode. Where is protection? How does that relay magically cure dirty electricity?

What is the output from this 120 volt UPS when in battery backup mode? 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. This power can be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors. And is ideal power to all electronics. Since they are promoting hearsay without numbers, then a UPS manufacturer will call that a pure sine wave, a stepped sine wave, a modified sine wave, or so many other subjective terms. Above are hard numbers. 200 volt square wave is a sum of pure sine waves (as you should remember from high school math).

If you have bad utility power, then what appliance must be protected? Motorized appliances such as the refrigerator, dishwasher, and furnace. Voltage variations exceeding 5% may be harmful to those appliances. All electronics are perfectly happy even when incandescent bulbs dim to 50%. How often are you light bulb dimming that much?

Another point. If your lights are dimming that much, then you don't need a line conditioner. You need an electrician to fix a possible human safety threat. So serious that you needed that electrician yesterday. Completely irresponsible are those who would recommend a line conditioner rather than eliminate a human safety threat.

How often is your voltage varying up to 160 volts? Well, if voltage increases from 120 to 127 volts, then your light bulbs are burning out twice as fast. If voltage is 160 volts, then light bulbs are burning out more than 40 times faster. Meanwhile, electronics even 40 years ago were required to withstand transients up to 600 volts without damage. Today, those standards are even higher. Where is all this damage from utility lines? Invented in advertising to sell unnecessary equipment for massive profits. Invented to create fear.

Are your light bulbs changing intensity? How fast are bulbs burning out? How many motorized appliances do you have that need line conditioners?

[jjennings2510]

Maybe (seriously...) the discussion is now about apples and oranges.....

The original question posted had to do with conditioners, more so than protection, per. se. There is no argument that whole house, earth ground is the preferred protection scheme.

The issue that 99% of the time, the issue we face is not so much as lightning strikes, etc, but the rapidly fluctuating current voltage drops, surges, "dirty" power, etc. All of which is 160 volts or less, down to 80 volts, sudden power losses, brownouts, etc. While many reputable appliance and audio manufacturers have a protection scheme built in, those systems are generally designed to accomodate the ocassional "issue", and presume steady clean power from the wall....

This scenario is more and more often not the case with the power supplied by the power companies, and is often quite alarming in certain areas. I believe that regardless of whether they are good, bad or indifferent, a line conditioner, or even better, a conditioner that supplies true sine wave, stable (and uninterruptable...) power to sensitive (and expensive...) audio components is a good idea.

Is it demonstrable that the devices are inherently "good". In many instances yes, and factual basis for this assertion is certainly there. Case in point? Servers at the office.... A few years ago after continual non-lightning related "fried" pieces that were connected to the walls (comercial building code, earth ground, spikes and cables into the ground all over the place, etc. etc.), we shifted to 1500+VA battery back-up UPS's with good specs (clamping times, etc. meets all the IEEE or whatever specs). The problems stopped, completely. Computers are no different than expensive audio devices when it comes to these kind of problems.

Joules? the office UPS can handle about 600 and then clamps and requires a circuit breaker to be re-set. Mine? same thing, and since I started using these "devices", I have not had a single problem. Prior to the use of these devices (big ones...), every few months after the "regularly scheduled" local power company "event", a fast-blow fuse would do it's job on an amp or speakers and require replacing.

Lightning strikes notwithstanding, the issue for the common man (that's us...) is the power company voltage fluctuations and crappy power can and will eventually cause damage to pretty much anything other than the most simple appliances.

That is the issue I believe that is the point of the discussion for many Forum members.

Tom: In good faith, while I see, understand and value your points, the power between the wall and the amp still can be a problem for the reasons I cite.

I'm happy with my batteries.... I apparently need them in this locale....

Agreed! As I said earlier this past summer we had a ton of brownouts that killed my cousins tv. I had a battery backup on my equipment and it never went out....not once. I mean I'll happily admit my power is normally pretty stable......so stable in fact that I wondered if I wasted my money on the ups units. But the summer reaffirmed that my purchase was a great idea and last week I was reassured again by the power constantly going in and out rapidly. But idk how we got on this subject of research etc.

[pocket.change]

Yes...

Living in Houston, dealing with weather and a history of my tv being toasted by lightning and a PE friend suggesting it would be positive to use something to smooth the occasional trama that occurs from the typical sources... you bet I've got a Powervar 12 (in fact I have 2). I'm not exactly sure what they do but my Panasonic monitor and all of the other gear plugged into these things have never had an issue. The A/C on the other hand has been smoked along with the washing machine from transformer/lightning hits. Last time this occurred was a couple of years back, when the transformer (on a pole across the street) was struck (boy, talk about a bang) and the insurance guy thanked me for having the Powervar units in place as he presented me with a check for repairs.

I would suggest checking your ground rod if you havn't in the last few years. As for the typical protection strip, if yours has been in place for a period of time, I suggest you open it for a visual inspection to insure it has not fried and continues to forward the impression of providing whatever service its reputed design suggested. Yes, they sometime function in spite of being toasted!

Thank You

[westom]

I'm not exactly sure what they do but my Panasonic monitor and all of the other gear plugged into these things have never had an issue. The A/C on the other hand has been smoked along with the washing machine from transformer/lightning hits.

Read numeric specs for that Powervar. Where does it claim protection? Yes, that means posting protection numbers for each type of surge.

You let energy inside the building. That energy hunts for earth via some appliance. How many other appliances not on that Powervar were not destroyed? Refrigerator. Bathroom GFCI. Telephones. What protected all those appliances? Invisible protectors? Yes, invisible protectors did what the Powervar did.

A surge was inside and hunting. Damaged appliances were the best connections to earth ground. A surge is a current source. That means voltage increased as necessary to blow through those appliances. A surge must obtain earth. Nothing stops the hunt. Voltage increases as necessary. Nothing - not even the Powervar - can stop the hunt. Where are Powervar protection numbers?

Either you connect energy harmlessly to earth outside the building. Or that energy is inside hunting for earth destructively via appliances. Today it destroys the air conditioner. Remove the air conditioner. Years later, it must find earth again. No air conditioner? So it takes out a refrigerator or Powervar. What is the new "better path to earth"? It will find a destructive path to earth if you do not earth a 'whole house' protector. One 'whole house' protector earths even direct lighting strikes - without damage. But only you make that choice.

Either your 'whole house' protector is within feet of single point ground. Or only protection is what comes standard in every appliance. Yes, what is already inside appliances is superior to what a Powervar does. Again, what do its spec numbers say?

Either energy dissipates harmlessly outside your building. Or a surge voltage increases as necessary to blow through protection that is already inside the appliance. Your choice.

Surge does not destroy every appliance. It chooses better connections to earth a few appliances. Nothing on an appliance power cord will affect that selection. .

To claim a Powervar did anything useful means all other unprotected appliances were damaged. Every one. Reality. The air conditioner saved your other appliances. That made the connection to earth. Powervar did what its spec numbers say - nothing.

[leftwinger57]

TO ALL OUT THERE,

I can't believe this debate I started 2 weeks ago. It actually reminds me of joining the Dead forum and opening with a hello than proceeded to bash

the band I like because they could be so damn right dissapointingtThen on the very next night they would give the performance to blow your mind. Looking at the results it's split pretty down the middle on whether the surge/ pro does A.work and B.if it does work how well. So clearly, it's up to the individule owner to decide for themselves and then live w/ the decision. For me if I could afford one I think I'm going to get one. Furmans seem popular but some of the other models have led read-outs if your into looking at that kind of stuff.For me it would never be a substitute for the warm blue glow of a MAC 2100 (i know it's not supposed to be) Thanks for all the responses, all the specs and models to choose from....LW

[westom]

Furmans seem popular but some of the other models have led read-outs if your into looking at that kind of stuff.

Your original post asked about surge protection. Facts, numbers, and 100 years of well proven science says a product that costs tens or 100 times less money even protects from lightning strikes. And that protector remains functional. A majority did not say that. And a majority also proved Saddam had WMDs.

Consensus is a worst way to select something. Only hard facts and manufacturer spec numbers are relevant. If you did not want to protect from surges, then which electrical anomaly did you want to solve? The LED display says nothing about any problematic anomaly. But it does get the majority to also believe Saddam had WMDs. Hard facts and numbers is an underlying point throughout this entire thread.

Furman is popular by simply claiming things in advertising that it does not do. And that is legal. As it was legal when cigarettes were advertised in the 1950s and 1960 to increase your health. Only place a manufacturer cannot spin and lie is in specification numbers. Many Furman products are nothing more than power strip protectors in a fancier box. Read its spec numbers. Similar numbers are in $7 protector sold in the grocery store. Same numbers that a majority will ignore to recommend it. Consensus is never a valid way to select a product. The underlying facts and numbers - the reasons why - should be your only deciding fact.