La Scala upgrades, owners help me choose.

[Mrtie]

Hi

Mostly a lurker here but I have a pair of 1988 la scalas, that while I enjoy them, I feel they could be more then they are. I've been doing a lot of reading here and elsewhere on the net about upgrades and I'm thinking of taking the plunge. I have around a grand to spend and I'm thinking about doing some or all of the following.

1. ALK universal DIY kit

2. Fastrac midrange horn

3. Crites tweeters

4.Bass reflex mod

Aside from that I plan on doing a little wood putty/sanding and fresh coat of black on my la scalas as they are a bit rough on the outside as well. So basically I'd love to here from some owners, your thoughts on any of the following mods,and what you feel made the most difference. If it helps I am powering them with a Hlly MK III pre and a 6T9 power amp based of the sparetimegizmo schematic. I enjoy them quite a bit as they are but I could certianly enjoy a bit more low end and my highs tend to sound sharp almost harsh at time. With the aging AL networks in them I know i'm not doing myself any favors.

Thanks

Kevin

[Coytee]

Welcome.

I've owned some LaScalas since 1979. They came with AA's. I've since put some of Al's ES networks in them. I have not heard the fastrac nor Crites tweeters. I've also never heard the bass reflex mod.

I HAVE however, heard the JubeScala. I would personally put that at the very top of my list as the most significant upgrade in sound to the LaScala. By extension, given your specific choices, I would therefore choose #2 first (though I don't know how this blends with your crossover situation)

The JubeScala (which is not the Fastrac) is more than your stated budget. Roughly $1,500 for the smaller K510 horn and roughly $2K for the much larger K402 horn. Then you have an active crossover and possibly another amp to fool around with.

I would make the suggestion to you to try to hear a JubeScala if you can. (where are you?) I'm in Knoxville TN and if you are anywhere near me, I can setup a JubeScala with the larger K402 horn for you to hear, compared to the base LaScala (with the ES networks).

I personally think once you hear something like this....you will be happy keeping your pennies saved for another 4-6 months so you could do something like this.

Good luck in what ever you do!

[DizRotus]

Yes, do all of those. As to what will produce the most noticeable improvement, my experience is limited to the DJK bass reflex mod and Crites tweeters.

Nevertheless, I believe the new midrange horn and crossover upgrade would, together, be the biggest improvement. Next would be the bass reflex mod and finally the Crites tweeter. The change from the Crites tweeter would be the most subtle. Some love it; others prefer the K-77.

Good luck, enjoy and please share the results.

[Mrtie]

I'm way up in michigan and I had ponder going jub scala or maybe even a azura/oris horn setup with a fostex full range, but again then the budget becomes nearly double once you add in active crossover and another amp. I believe any of those options would be amazing but throwing a grand into a set of speakers I picked up on the cheap is already approaching a level of crazy I'm not I nor my signicant other is ready to handle [H] also with either of those optoins worry about my listening room, my spaeker are in the far corners around 7-8 feet apart, toed in and I listen around 10-11 feet back, not sure if going jub or front loaded horn would suit a listening space that small.

[Coytee]

Well, I'm 3 turns off of I-75 so but for the modest straightaway through Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky and part of TN....I'm right down the street from you! []

Your budget comments are well taken and understood. I would make this comment back: Going with the JubeScala is going with a 100% Klipsch engineered solution. Everything has been worked out in their chamber. You would be 100% Klipsch. Costs can certainly be a concern.

Given the experience I have had by going from 3-way Khorns to 2-way Jubilee's, the JubScala solution might actually better fit your listening position of 10-11 feet back than the others as well.

I'm not trying to brow beat you... I simply try to put the factors on the table and let someone make as educated decision as they can. Here's my point. A 2-way speaker might sound better to you at 10/11 feet away, than a 3-way. I once had my LaScalas outdoors...well, one of them... and discovered there was a point about 25' away from them where they sounded distinctly better than standing closer to them. I later realized this with my Khorns as well. I actually measured it with my Khorns and found the distance there to be 30'.

With the Jubilee's, I can be about 10' away from them and have this better coherency. It took me a while and a brow beat by Ben to understand that it wasn't the fact that I was using an aligned signal that was making this improvement.... (I later proved this by changing the delay in my active crossover)... no, it was the fact that I dropped a crossover point and only had two drivers mixing their sound instead of three drivers.

What this showed me and I've tried to share with people ever since is.... the 2-way JubeScala will probably sound better to you at 10' away than the 3-way modified LaScala (which will probably sound better to you than the stock 3-way). So for my money, I'd contend that you will probably love any of the changes you listed with the midrange swap being my guess as to the biggest bang for the buck (of those choices).

Setting that 3-way speaker next to a 2-way JubeScala, I contend that you would then find the JubeScala to have this better coherency (while at your sitting position) than the 3-way.

I don't understand your comment about a front loaded horn being suitable for a space that small.... the stock LaScala is all front loaded as is the Fastrac/Crites version as well as the JubeScala.

Heck, when I was in college, I had my stock LaScalas in my dorm...... [] True story!

[Johnny's Jill]

Normally I would say do the fastracs first. However this statement steers me to suggest you start with the ALK's

With the aging AL networks in them I know i'm not doing myself any favors.

Ditch the AL crossovers.

I have heard all of the mods you have listed and think they are all worthy improvements. I have not yet heard Jubescala, but agree active is nice but $$$.

Craig.

[J.4knee]

I've had my 84 LS since I bought them in 84. Having built and installed ALK kits inplace of AL's, Crites Tweeters and changed out sqawkers (Altec 511B). I'd say it is a toss up both the crossover and Sqawker change out have the most dramatic effect.

If I were doing things over from scratch I'd probalby opt to go active and install K510/K69 in the LS top. Then go from there. I'll likely go that route at some point. As for the Bass Reflex mod I'll probalby opt to integrate a sub. I've heard the LS with the KW120's and KA1000 and it is a match made in heaven IMO.

[Mrtie]

Coytee

Very interesing points , and sorry for being unclear I simply meant large "Le Cléac’h expansion" style horns, along with a fullrange driver in 2-way operation, on top had been another idea. The idea of the k510 I have to say intrigues me a bit more simply becuase it can be modded to fit inside the topbox of the scalas. Curious as to how different the k402 is for listening then the 501.

[Coytee]

Curious as to how different the k402 is for listening then the 501.

I presume you mean 510... if not, pardon the upcoming.

More than a handful have heard them both. My personal opinion is when you are on axis or essentially in the pattern of the 510 they sound more alike than not. (the 510 is indeed "the little horn that could"). It's when you get off axis that I think the 402 starts to flex its muscles. They had both at a Klipsch gathering in Indianapolis once. Room (banquet) acoustics were horrific. They had two pair of Jubilee's in the same room. One pair with the 402 and one pair with the 510's (which by the way, were won in a raffle by Bob in Bay City Michigan....so if you are close to Bay City......)

Anyways, because I already had the Jubilee's at home I didn't want to make the crowd larger as they went back/forth listening to the two variants. I just happened to grab a table that was between the two systems. What I heard here was quite accidental. When the 510's were playing, the sound was fine & dandy. I was OUTSIDE the view of the throat of the horn so I was off axis but I don't know how much. When the system changed and the 402's played, it seemed as though the 402's had an entire octave playing on top. Meaning, they simply controlled the sound better while off axis than the 510 did.

I might add...I DID go with the crowd once/twice to hear both so I before I sat down I heard them both on axis and was quite impressed with the 510's. Stuffing one of them into a center channel LaScala is exactly what I'm going to do, unless I go with an AT screen and put a 402 on top of the LaScala. I've got pros/cons for going either way.

If you are near Bay City....or care to take the effort to get there, I'd bet you a nice lunch that Bob would love to share his Jubilee's. It won't be the same as the JubeScala but, it will be the 510's playing (with a passive xover).

Above is all my opinion. I do know of one other person who stated he didn't like the 510's as much as the 402's....(well, duh!) It sure is nice being able to hid them inside the top of your LaScala though [Y] I also can't reiterate the improvement my main system had going from 3-way to a 2-way. That in itself, was quite the eye opening experience for me.

[Mrtie]

Coytee

Man are you trying to get me thrown in the dog house? Yeah I meant the 510, early morning typo. I only live about 15 miles from Bay City. So how does one contact Bob so I can seal my fate? [] already thinking I can build another 6T9 amp and get a nice used DX38 and save up for the rest for the 510s. Torn about this whole thing, I guess I really need to hear them.

[Coytee]

I've sent him an email. We'll see if he magically shows up.

To answer your question, yes....I am trying to get you into the doghouse. When I'm one of (say) 20 people that have the 402 in their rooms, my wife can give me a certain amount of grief. If that number goes to 50 then I can show her how much more 'common' it is... and she shouldn't be so negative on huge plug ugly speakers in her living room.

Yes, I'm sticking to that story.

[PrestonTom]

Kevin, it looks like you are going to have a project on your hands, an exciting one.

I would also recommend a K-510 horn. This is a constant dispersion horn (CD). which means the there is a good control of the dispersion and the on-axis and off-axis respsonse will be comparable. This also means that you need some form of CD compensation, which is not a big deal. However there are two implications, one is that the ALK offerings will not work. The other is that it will be easier to set up using an electronic crossover. Electronic crossovers can range from a Behringer 2496 DCX for $300 (new, and this is actually not too bad sounding given the cost) to a Electrovoice unit which can range from 800-1200 used. Either of these units would also allow for a "time alignment" which is a big plus. There are many advantages with electronic crossovers (this topic alsone is worth a seperate thread)

Back to the CD horn, the K-510 might be a bit pricey and they are hard to find on the used market. However they do sound very, very good (I use them on my Jubilee set up). Another option on a CD horn which might be more affordable are from Electrovoice (the HP series). And now for the shameless plug ..... I happen to have several extra Electrovoice HP640 horns cluttering up my basement. I need to find them a good home (PM me if interested). They also come up occassionally on eBay.

The take home message is to seriously consider using a CD horn (the tractrix horns mentioned above are not CD). When combined with the vented box mod, that would be a killer system (it could even be done as a two-way configuration).

Good luck with your project!

[Coytee]

Just to try to be of some honest help... for a change [bs]

You seem to be close to Bob (and he has no idea I'm writing this until he reads it here).

I've got an extra Dx38 laying about. If you & Bob can make something happen where perhaps you drag a LaScala bin to his place, I'd be more than happy to ship my Dx to you so you could give it a whirl.

It even has the JubeScala settings already programmed into it. Literally a plug/play situation other than the reality that it uses XLR inputs and he's probably setup with RCA's.

Regardless... I'd be more than happy to ship it out for an audition. I'll cover shipping to you and you cover shipping back to me.

[jhoak]

Moving away from the idea of a JubScala for a moment...

I've done just about all of the listed upgrades or near derivitives to my La Scalas. On the advise of the forum members I ditched the AL crossovers right off. I don't recall the exact order of the upgrades but I think the biggest "overall" improvement came from the Fastrac horns.

I tried the port modification but wasn't all that jazzed about the outcome. The biggest problem with that mod was not the mod but my room placement. My La Scalas sit just a few inches from the wall and I ported (slot) them out the back. I think had I been able to port them to the front or at least pulled them out in to the room I would have been more pleased. In the end I sealed them back up and run them with a subwwofer on some music.

For crossovers I'm currently running ALK AP12-500s and DIY AP15-6000s. Based on email conversations with Mr. Klappenberger what I'm hearing is the equal to or just a tiny bit better than his universals. I have run an assortment of crossovers in the last couple of years and what I currently have installed are the best I've used. That said I am saving my extra dimes and nickels hoping to at some point move to a set of ES networks. Someday...

I really can't say much about the Crites tweeters. My La Scalas arrived with blown tweeters. I had a pair of the CT125s on hand that I had bought for a pair of Heresys. I never got to hear the La Scalas with K-77s to make a comparison. I do think that the CT125s might have a bit less output than K-77s but I have no "first hand" basis for comparison. I have since moved to a pair of Selenium D220Ti drivers on HM17-25 horns. I think they sound very nice but are a little bit on the "hot" side so I have them attenuated 3dB at the crossovers.

I guess each and every change, upgrade or modification had some impact. Some were major improvements and others not so much. I think the real beauty of modding La Scalas is that one can easily taylor them to the sound that your ears like. Mine are a little bit forward in the midrange and a tiny bit hot on the top end. That's the way my 52 year old badly abused ears like them. Certainly not everyone's "cup of tea" though.

For the record my La Scalas have: Crites CW1526C woofers, Gothover Fastrac horns, K-55M squawker drivers, Selenium D220Ti tweeter drivers on HM17-25 horns, AP12-500 / AP15-6000 crossovers and all 14Ga wiring. They're being driven by an Onkyo / Integra P-306RS preamp & M-506RS amplifier with an assortment of sources.

[Mrtie]

Nice feedback, thanks for the info. I am still thinking I'll go with most of my current plan, but I'd be liar if the jubscala didn't intrigue me, I hope I can get in touch with Bob and have a listen.

[BobRiff]

E-mail sent.

BTW Richard, I'm using the passive crossovers that Roy built for these. (I've never opened the speakers up to look at them, but I know the were basically just "bread-boarded" on pieces of plywood at the Pilgrimage).

Bob

[Coytee]

Yep, I'm aware that you're using a passive. That's one reason I offered to send up my Dx.

[Unity_coupled]

Just wanted to chime in...

I just installed CT125s in my La Scalas (recapped AA). They sound great and eliminate that 6KHz peak found in the K-77. Can't wait to get my tube amps back from the shop.

[tromprof]

These are so many different ways to change these speakers. I think it is better to start small and see if you like the change. When I get a chance (i.e. can spare the $) I will do to my La Scalas what I did to my K-horns. I first put in a new Crites A crossover and then put in his tweeters as well. More recently I changed the crossover to his A/4500 crossover (and put the A in the La Scalas) and replaced the horn to driver gaskets. All of these were easy improvements that left the speakers still sounding like K-horns but with noticeable improvements. Though not cheap, these smaller changes weren't outrageous either. One major upgrade I am doing to the La Scalas is building a horn loaded sub woofer. As nice as the La Scalas are they are lacking in the bass department. Tinkering with these speakers is fun. [8-|]

[Mrtie]

Ok so I have now heard the "Mighty Jubilee"™ and my thoughts are ever the more confused. First thanks a bunch for Bob for being so gracious as to let me come over and torture him with my crazy music for an hour or two [H], and thank you Coytee for getting us together on this. My impressions are the following, at moderate listening levels, the most shocking thing to me was how similiar the Jubilees sounded to my la scalas more then anything else, it's heritage dna through and through now I know for a fact you crazy folks out there with them as mains in an all heritage HT setup are very lucky folks indeed. When the volume rises though, they offer as what can only be decribed as MORE, more bass, more coherent highs, better transition from midrange to high(duh 1 driver!). They sound very very good but the problem is this, I feel as if what I was most in love with were the bassbins not the k510, the authority and pressence of those bin's adds a huge sonic difference to the overall presentation of the music. The K510 great, certianly better then my current current speakers, but the differences at least to my ears and unless I was at quite loud volumes was somewhat smaller then I had expected, it is a definate improvement but perhaps not one that I am yet willing to pay in the order of $2000-2600 to enjoy.Thats said I'd love to own a pair of full on jubilee's one day as an entire package they are the best speakers I have personally heard, though I certianly think having a larger listening room then I currently have would be a boon for ownership as well. There are of course some key differences between Bob's setup and other Jub owners, he has a passive network which was built by Roy, he runs SS, I run tubes, I may bring some tubes his way one of these days to test out, though he tells me another expensive diversion in audio is something doesn't need []. Overall I think I'm going to do the networks and bass bin mod to my la scalas, hold onto the rest of my money and see how I feel about all of this, the jubscala sounds like it would be great but ATM it just seems a bit out of reach bang for buck for my taste. Don't let this post discourage any future readers, audio is personal thing and if I where a man of more disposable income it might be an avenue I'd try. I will update with my impressions of my mod's pictures etc as time goes on. Thanks for everyones help.