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Which camp are you in ??? And why are you there ???


joessportster

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I started out with a 5.1 Klipsch reference system with receivers, then solid state amps, then more recently quality PP tube gear for the past few years. At the beginning, my musical preference was for loud music, movies & concerts in surround sound. As the years past, I tried to improve the quality of equipment as my musical tastes changed to much more detailed and "mellow" music. Now, I seldom use surround sound and listen mostly to only music with the RF-7's and Peach/VRD's, which have kept me pretty happy until recently.

Becoming interested in single driver speakers, which I had not previously heard, I listened to and purchased a pair of Cain & Cain Super Abby's and Bailey Sub. (I've not even had to to set them up properly, but can already tell that they will be taking the place of the RF-7's). While the Abby's of course do sound good with the VRD's, I'm now curious to hear how a low power amp will sound with the Abby's, which of course are made to work with low power amps. So, for now I'll be holding on to the 7's and VRD's, but there may come a day real soon where they need to be moved to make room for new gear.

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I think this thread is heading in the wrong direction. I was not speaking set vs pp I am speaking power but as bryan so aptly said I have been up and down the road a few times and frankly so much so that I get bored real easy and frustrated even easier. I am at a point in life now with the wife and kids I want to get off the merry go round and settle with a very minimalist system that can play the music I love. Bryan thanks for your thoughts as usual you are a light in the dark.... Also thanks for the response to Steve. I get aggrivated very easily by silly posts that seem to have no purpose other than to antagonize someone. (you dispatched him much better than I would have) Fo me I have love for both high and low power systems and after a long discussion with the wife and some goal setting things will be settleing down in the house Joe

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I think this thread is heading in the wrong direction.

Unfortunately, that's almost always the case with threads like this one. I'll be watching closely to see if a civilized conversation can actually be carried out on this topic. So far, I'm thinking no.

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I get aggrivated very easily by silly posts that seem to have no purpose other than to antagonize someone.

This may surprise you but every question that I proposed is on the level - nothing emotive or rhetorical was intended (as is usual for my posts, since irony and other forms of rhetoric are much too easily misunderstood and can lead to flame wars).

I would still welcome real answers to any of my questions. The questions are on the level. I only hope any proposed answers might be also. I was so severely disappointed with my 300Bs that I could not believe that anyone would buy them. The interesting thing was that I found no negative posts on these units before investing in them.

Only one argument that could make any sense as to a cause: output impedance of the Dx38 is too low to couple properly to the 300Bs, but I've got some real issues with that if true.

Chris

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] I am bi-amping Crown D-75As (same topology as mdeneen's D-45 amp), using a Dx38 to time-align, and TADs on the top end of my two-way mains.

I am in the same camp as Cask, but no TAD drivers and I use Crown D-75 amps, there's only a slight difference in the amps. Also a Little difference in speakers but very close to the same amplification.

I may (one day) try a different amp, mine are old and on occasion have a slight hum in between songs. But it would still be the same configuration with 4 channels and the DX 38, with the same 2 way speakers.

For the second part of that question the answer is easy, it's the best sound I have ever had, some may have a problem with size or even the sound but we really like it and that's all that really counts. If I had money to play with I would try different pre-amps and amps to find something possible better but I tend to have more projects than money most of the time. [:S]

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Nothing against SET for those who do like them....within their capabilities SET can be very enjoyable and worthwhile. Given the success I have had with these two setups I have no reason to go SET.

What SET amps have you owned in the past?

I haven't owned any SET amps - but I did listen to several SET setups during my "investigative" period when I began checking out tube systems.

I was continually told two things during my numerous "one-on-one" meetings and discussions with various forum members: Klipsch LOVE tubes - and Klipsch like smaller wattage amplifiers that are in a "sonic sweet spot" at power levels below one watt. So naturally I made it a point to look at single ended gears (2A3 and 300B). There's a LOT to like in single ended gear, and these setups were SWEET with acoustic material and modest volume. I just could not live with the wattage limitations of a 2A3, for example....I listen to too much rock and other amplified music to be happy with a three watt system. If my primary music selections were made up of acoustic jazz, choir/vocal, or chamber music and not much else, I would probably have an SET system.

I came REALLY close to going 300B....but then I ventured into the MC30 projects and left the 300B to the side in case my MC30 projects didn't pan out as planned. The Sonicap Platinum loaded MC30s (once fully broken in and tweaked) kept me from worrying about 300B - I got the sound I was looking for here and didn't push any further.

That said, I would NEVER tell people that SET isn't worth investigating. I would recommend that anyone interested in Klipsch/tubes do so, if for no other reason than to try all of the valid possibilities. For some listeners with the right listening habits they can be a great choice (and if you can do two systems it's a VERY nice option). For ME, a SET system would be a "fifteen percent" solution where the other systems would get used 85% of the time. So for MY habits, not the most practical choice.

If I ever get bored and just want to play around with an alternate rig, single ended would be where I would go. I find the high powered triodes particularly alluring - 300B as well as 845 or 211 would be VERY fun to play with, and I'm sure I could have fun rolling various smaller wattage outputs too. So I don't discount the potential of single ended....it's just that most solutions in this realm aren't as practical for MY use. I also am well aware that a single ended amp would be very useful in a biamp solution, but that's a deeper rabbit hole that I have elected to not persue.

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I am in the PP camp right now, with a Audio Space Galaxy 300... 21 wpc integrated with 4: 300Bs in PP.

I am real enjoying the sound and find this amp to cover the most bases of any amp I have tried with my KHorns.

With that said, the VERY best I have ever heard my system sound was when I was driving it with a pair of DRD45s.

Unfortunatley, I keep looking for that extra OOMPH that the 2 wpc Welbornes could not muster.

By far the most dynamic that the KHorns have sounded was with an Audio Space Galaxy 88, 4: KT88s in PP...

I can see why so many love this configuration, ie. Macs, VRDs, etc.

Like I said the 300B in PP seems to be a good all rounder for me, but I think if finances were not a concern, I would also

have both a 45 SET and a KT88 sitting on the rack as well [Y]

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Nothing against SET for those who do like them....within their capabilities SET can be very enjoyable and worthwhile. Given the success I have had with these two setups I have no reason to go SET.

What SET amps have you owned in the past?

I haven't owned any SET amps - but I did listen to several SET setups during my "investigative" period when I began checking out tube systems.

I was continually told two things during my numerous "one-on-one" meetings and discussions with various forum members: Klipsch LOVE tubes - and Klipsch like smaller wattage amplifiers that are in a "sonic sweet spot" at power levels below one watt. So naturally I made it a point to look at single ended gears (2A3 and 300B). There's a LOT to like in single ended gear, and these setups were SWEET with acoustic material and modest volume. I just could not live with the wattage limitations of a 2A3, for example....I listen to too much rock and other amplified music to be happy with a three watt system. If my primary music selections were made up of acoustic jazz, choir/vocal, or chamber music and not much else, I would probably have an SET system.

I came REALLY close to going 300B....but then I ventured into the MC30 projects and left the 300B to the side in case my MC30 projects didn't pan out as planned. The Sonicap Platinum loaded MC30s (once fully broken in and tweaked) kept me from worrying about 300B - I got the sound I was looking for here and didn't push any further.

That said, I would NEVER tell people that SET isn't worth investigating. I would recommend that anyone interested in Klipsch/tubes do so, if for no other reason than to try all of the valid possibilities. For some listeners with the right listening habits they can be a great choice (and if you can do two systems it's a VERY nice option). For ME, a SET system would be a "fifteen percent" solution where the other systems would get used 85% of the time. So for MY habits, not the most practical choice.

If I ever get bored and just want to play around with an alternate rig, single ended would be where I would go. I find the high powered triodes particularly alluring - 300B as well as 845 or 211 would be VERY fun to play with, and I'm sure I could have fun rolling various smaller wattage outputs too. So I don't discount the potential of single ended....it's just that most solutions in this realm aren't as practical for MY use. I also am well aware that a single ended amp would be very useful in a biamp solution, but that's a deeper rabbit hole that I have elected to not persue.

OLD time radio top had a 3-"inch speaker to move no biggie becuase NO bass demanded

Now digital amps technlogical LO power or HIGH wattage. LO power is okay but sounds like LO PWER![:)] digital orglass tube same difference

SO >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the solution>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to problem>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(like geometry class)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

HI power for when you it and -- --- ---- LO opwer when you want it JUST TURN DOWN THE VOLUME NOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But cannot TURN UPnob enough on LOamp because its' maxed out already freddy

I reset my case [Y]

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I have always enjoyed these threads and hopefully this can remain as civil as it has thus far. Personally I have heard many set amps and found them to be wonderful at what they do best and not so wonderful at what they dont. For the music that I listen to, which is mostly acoustic whether that be orchestral or jazz or other - I can say it doesnt include a lot of drum machines or computer generated sound - the type A pp amps at about 35 watts are a perfect combination of the smoothness of set as well as providing the gonads to blast it every now and then.

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Cask05. My remark that you quote was not directed at you. It was at the ssteve guy and I see he's still at it. My only answer to your problem with the 300b could be a couple things. System synergy (it does exist, beleive it or not), Or the 300b may not be to your liking for instance I have not heard a straight up 300b set that I liked. I like some set amps and some I can't get out of the system fast enough. Suffice to say your 1mentioned bad experience doesn't equate to all amps !!!! Joe

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For those of us more technically minded, what are the reasons on paper for the advantages to SET? I understand what people are referring to about the smooth mids of SET, so I'm curious what the SET crowd would say is the reason for that sound. The natural progression would be to then implement that advantage into other topologies. Have any of you SET guys played with any Class D amps?

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I'm very happy with my Class D amps. They've got all the headroom I'd ever need, very good low-level detail retrieval, and, although I've not heard any high-end tube setups, the Class D amps are reputed to have a "tubey" sound. The distortion numbers are also very low.

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For those of us more technically minded, what are the reasons on paper for the advantages to SET?

Well, they are Class A. You can get away with using these low power amps with efficient speakers because they clip more gracefully and gradually than PP or most solid state designs. This is a good thing for these amps because you will be running them into clipping frequently, even with high efficiency loudspeakers.

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Which camp am I in?

I currently reside in Crown's Camp with two K2's.

I have been in the camp of:

McIntosh MC-30's, MC-2102, Wright 2A3's, Quad II's, Viva 300B SET, Jolida 502B, Transcendent SE-OTL

When playing at "evening news" volume, I found the tubed amps more alike than not. Obviously, when the volume was turned up, something like the MC 30's or the MC-2102 had more power than the smaller amps.

Sonically, I felt the OTL amp garnered the most "that sounds so real" comments from others while in the dining room eating dinner. The one that I think had the best spatial cues (limited to only the amps mentioned) was the Viva 300B SET. It was pretty cool "seeing" two backup singers shoulder to shoulder.

Alas.... for the money involved.... I did not want to keep the McIntosh amps. Just not worth the money for the sound (to me). The 2A3's, 300B, Se-OTL didn't have enough blood & guts for when I turn things up so they're gone.

My perfect amp would be something like the 300B or the SE-OTL's I had, but.... with 100 watts/channel behind them!!!

Since that's not going to happen, I'm perfectly content with the K2's WITH their variable gains. I can put them at 30/50% gain which causes me to use more juice from my Peach and everything has a very good sound and virtually zero background noise (not something I recall I was able to say with the tube amps but, my memory is vague on that aspect). If/when I want to really step into things, I can merely move the gains on the Crowns up to an appropriate place and have all the volume I want with some headroom to spare. (this is usually done with me milling about the house and not sitting in same room)

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Well, they are Class A. You can get away with using these low power amps with efficient speakers because they clip more gracefully and gradually than PP or most solid state designs. This is a good thing for these amps because you will be running them into clipping frequently, even with high efficiency loudspeakers.

Well this begs for the question....wouldn't one not want to hit clipping at all... let alone frequently? I've heard tons of SET amps and what they do well they do very well. What they don't do well is very much the deal breaker for me. I like to listen to just about every genre of music imaginable and just can not stand to have an amp that just does horrible at one musical type and is spectacular at another. It's just to limiting. I'd just as soon have an amp that does all things respectable.

To take this subject further...I really do not completely fault the mushy sound of SET with complex music to just be a power thing. SET amps have an inherent problem tracking busy complex passage within music (impedance tracking). Higher power SET amps have the same character when presented with complex passages as there lower powered little brothers but to a slightly lesser degree. To me when presented with complex passage these amps just turn to mush loosing the inner detail of the music, every thing just kind of runs together. So what they excel at with Jazz and Acoustic music quickly is gone when the demand for extreme impedance complexity is presented. I know I for one get real bored listening to the same music type all the time. I run a lossless music server with 8000 tracks of every genre of music imaginable.... I let it randomly play so I just never know what will play next!

Craig

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I have the sense that some folks involved in this thread have the impression that push-pull amps are the panacea for a "sounds good with all music" scenario. That simply is not true as they have their own set of ills which can noticeably affect the sound. There is simply no one amplifier design (whether tube or solid state) which will sound good with everything. If one is fortunate enough to find an amp/speaker combination which they find pleasing most of the time, they should consider themselves lucky!
A case in point is one of my audiophile buddies who has used his Krell "arc-welder" with his B&W 801s for years with good overall satisfaction. Recently, he acquired a pair of Acoustat Model 4s which he's using with some crappy Yamaha solid state gear from the early 90s. Guess what? The sound quality of that combination blows away the other system with virtually all of the music we compared them with, regardless of the level at which we listened. So, what's the answer?

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I have the sense that some folks involved in this thread have the impression that push-pull amps are the panacea for a "sounds good with all music" scenario.

Yes, and all of the high fidelity amplifier manufacturers in the 1950s and early 1960s must have thought that too, because none, absolutely none of them were still manufacturing single-ended power amplifiers back then. You could find lots of single-ended power amps back then in cheap radios and in low end guitar amps, but none that I ever saw were SETs, they all used pentode output tubes. Back then the "hi-fi nuts" found that the added power and lower distortion of PP sounded better, so that topology became the standard.

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