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Which camp are you in ??? And why are you there ???


joessportster

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For those of us more technically minded, what are the reasons on paper for the advantages to SET? I understand what people are referring to about the smooth mids of SET, so I'm curious what the SET crowd would say is the reason for that sound. The natural progression would be to then implement that advantage into other topologies. Have any of you SET guys played with any Class D amps?

3 things come to mind:

1. No feedback (usually). This eliminates the type of distortion caused by the feedback loop lagging the output.

Wrong properly implemented feedback lowers distortion.... look at the distortion specs of your SET amps usually on the 5%+ range is the norm... then look at the distortion spec of any well thought of PP amp... they handily trouce any SET amp in that regard! The bad rep on feedback was from engineeers applying way to much to get the distortion, bandwidth and dampening factor as high as possible during the Spec/power wars. Careful small amounts of properly tuned feedback is not an huge issue. Like everything trade off are made. But your blanket assessments are just not true.

Oh and many zero feedback PP designs exists and have for many years. I personally like just a bit of feedback.

No, I was correct. I said it lowered a certain type of distortion, not total distortion. And I agree that it should not be a huge issue if implemented, and pretty much said as much after #3.

2. Simple circuitry. There are a total of 7 components between my CDP and my ear (selector, volume, driver, coupling cap, power tube, OPT, single speaker driver).

Simple is fine until its too simple to do the job.....

When my SET gets too simple I'll let you know.

3. Class A. This eliminates switching distortion found in Push Pull designs.

CLASS A is not a SET only thing Class A can be achieved with PP designs no problem at all. VRD's for instant have around 15 solid class A watts before they start to reach into the A/B mode. Just about every PP amplifier has some amount of Class A operation.

OK, but the vast majority of PP amps in the world today are class A/AB (95%+ I would guess), so when someone mentions PP it is safe to assume they are referring to a A/AB amplifier.

None of these are possible (I don't believe) or at least not practicle, in a PP design. And I don't believe any of these are huge issues with topologies that have to deal with them.

See above wrong.... oh and many very simple PP designs exist. Problem is PP is hard to do right in an overly simple manor

I currently have SET with either single driver speakers or KHorns. That is not to say that SET is the only way, or even necessarily the best way, to make a good amplifier. SET is probaly not quite as good as you would think if you read what's on the internet, and is certainly no where nearly as bad as you would think if you read through this thread. It does simpler music and vocals exceptionally well, and it plays the classic rock I listen to well and as loud as I want (95 db+).

If you primarialy listen to loud music, or if your room is large, or if what SET offers does not turn you on, I would suggest another type of amp. But if you're like me and mostly use you rig to relax and chill at the end or beginning of the day, SET may just work for you.

See my comments above in bold

My bold comments below your bold comments

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Like I said in an earlier post, there are many ways to make a good amp. It's interesting to me that people who don't prefer SET amps seem to attempt to make them seem wrong for some reason. There are people on this forum that drive KHorns with hundreds of SS watts. While I don't see why, and I certainly don't believe it's the best way to drive 104 db speakers, I respect the fact that they like what they have and I do realize that we all have different likes and dislikes.

That's kind of a funny take on things if you ask me. I really do not see but a few folks in here talking bad about SET amps. I do see a number of folks stating why they do not prefer to use them but also stating that they do certain things extremely well. I myself think SET guys have some kind of inferiority complex and get their panties in a twist every time some one does not bow to the all mighty SET gods. Touchy bunch if you ask me and many of the more vocal types can be pretty darn nasty in my experience

Craig

" To take this subject further...I really do not completely fault the mushy sound of SET with complex music..."

" but modern amplifiers are very good indeed. SET power amplifiers are not examples of good, modern design."

It's probably because some of the posts come across as if what's being stated is fact and not opinion.

If I were to write something like "I really don't fault the high power of PP amplifiers as the reason the soundstage is so imprecise and you can't tell if it's a man or a woman singing..." I'd probably get like responses. Same thing with posts where SS guys talk about flabby bottom end and rolled off highs with tube amps, as if that were fact.

I'm more inclined to say I had this amp in this setup, and I prefer this other amp. In this case, I had an EL34 PP amp and a 150 watt SS amp (owned each and listened for several weeks), and I prefer several SE amps (pentode, tetrode, and triode) driving KHorns. But all sounded very good. I would expect that some people would prefer the PP, and some would prefer the SS. I do not hear mushy, I hear smooth. And just because SE amps were the standard in the 20s and 30 and not the "modern" 40s and 50s like PP does not mean they are inferior.

" I've heard tons of SET amps and what they do well they do very well. What they don't do well is very much the deal breaker for me." That's a beautiful statement, and if the posts went more like that the responses would be more gentle.

Peace

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It's interesting to me that people who don't prefer SET amps seem to attempt to make them seem wrong for some reason

That's because someone started a thread asking if one is in the SET or PP camp, and why. There are problems with SETs which limit the types of music that can be successfully reproduced through it (the "why" part) and that's why I am not in that camp.

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Boy are you are really trying to be devils advocate X5

Well it seems to me that nobody denies the limitations of SET, but what I don't understand is the implication that no other design can do what SET does well, while also improving on its limitations.

For example, I have heard one amplifier in particular with "SET-like" smoooooth midrange while also having lots of balls in the LF. I think it should be possible to quantify why the midrange sounds the same. Or really I have my own theories, but I'd like to hear from SET designers what they think they're achieving when they've chosen SET. Or to put it another way, why is SET the best tool for the job? All I've gotten so far is how SET is used, but not what it accomplishes.<\p>

And I hope my comment about driving the speaker directly from the CDP doesn't get overlooked because it drives exactly to the functional purpose of an amplifier. What is the ideal world amplifier that SET designers are using as the goal for their creations? Is it only no xover distortion and no feedback artifacts? Is a flat tonal balance a good thing? Should the tonal balance change when driving different speakers? Is it good to have a linear gain response? How much voltage swing does the amplifier need? Should clipping be avoided?

Is there more info on this feedback lagging the output thing? How is it being measured?

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It's interesting to me that people who don't prefer SET amps seem to attempt to make them seem wrong for some reason

That's because someone started a thread asking if one is in the SET or PP camp, and why. There are problems with SETs which limit the types of music that can be successfully reproduced through it (the "which" part) and that's why I am not in that camp.

I can understand that you don't prefer SET and the reasons why.

I am in the SET camp because I have found that a SET amp gives me most of what I want out of my system. There are things I get from SET that PP or SS just did not deliver. Pretty simple.

So you are OK with the 'problems' with PP which limit the types of music that can be "successfully" reproduced through it? i.e.: Vocals/midrange, if SET is the standard.

My point is that SET will "successfully" reproduce any music, just as PP will. SET is one of many ways to make an excellent amplifier. That's all I'm saying. I fully recognize that most people would not like it more than PP. But more people would probably like a hi watt SS amp more than PP, doeasn't make it better to me or you. It depends on what you're looking for.

I just take issue when you use terms like "problems" that imply a SET amp is inherently inferior to a PP amp no matter the environment it's being used in. I can tell you that the SET amp that I own is superior to me to the PP and SS amps I own. To be honest, if someone were to post about the problems of other types of amplifiers that I disagreed with I'd take issue with that as well. Opinions are opinions, and facts are facts. I make it a point to state my opinions as opinions. "There are problems with SETs which limit the types of music that can be successfully reproduced through it" is not a fact. It is your opinion.

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For those of us more technically minded, what are the reasons on paper for the advantages to SET? I understand what people are referring to about the smooth mids of SET, so I'm curious what the SET crowd would say is the reason for that sound. The natural progression would be to then implement that advantage into other topologies. Have any of you SET guys played with any Class D amps?

3 things come to mind:

1. No feedback (usually). This eliminates the type of distortion caused by the feedback loop lagging the output.

Wrong properly implemented feedback lowers distortion.... look at the distortion specs of your SET amps usually on the 5%+ range is the norm... then look at the distortion spec of any well thought of PP amp... they handily trouce any SET amp in that regard! The bad rep on feedback was from engineeers applying way to much to get the distortion, bandwidth and dampening factor as high as possible during the Spec/power wars. Careful small amounts of properly tuned feedback is not an huge issue. Like everything trade off are made. But your blanket assessments are just not true.

Oh and many zero feedback PP designs exists and have for many years. I personally like just a bit of feedback.

No, I was correct. I said it lowered a certain type of distortion, not total distortion. And I agree that it should not be a huge issue if implemented, and pretty much said as much after #3.

Ummm no you're still wrong or at least painting with broad strokes. Since the dostortion you are referring to is pretty much so small in a properly designed and implemented amplifer utilizing feedback it is really not measurable to any real world degree. "I've never heard a listener say "Hey I just heard that feedback lag" This is just one of those nit picky arguements the SET camp love to use to pump there chest about. I've seen it a many times.....an amp designer will spend endless amounts of time tinkering with a zero feedback amplifier and get it sounding wonderful. Then sloppily take this design that is optimized for zero feedback and throws feedback in it and says "look it sounds like garbage". Heck some of them even implement a switch to help sell there story. It would take one hell of a switch to achieve the changes required for both design optimizations.

The fact of the matter is its easy to measure 5% distortion or more in most zero feedback SET designs. In a well designed PP amp you can take every imaginable type of distortion and add them up and not reach 1% at full power and usually in the nearly unmeasureable range at 1-5 watts...

This are not opinions these are absolute facts although the numbers will vary from one designers amp to the next....

2. Simple circuitry. There are a total of 7 components between my CDP and my ear (selector, volume, driver, coupling cap, power tube, OPT, single speaker driver).

Simple is fine until its too simple to do the job.....

When my SET gets too simple I'll let you know.

Hey no one is saying you do not love your SET amps and no one is saying you should change....see me earlier panties in a twist comment. You like what you hear and that is fine with me but don;t be dillusional about what it is you're hearing.

3. Class A. This eliminates switching distortion found in Push Pull designs.

CLASS A is not a SET only thing Class A can be achieved with PP designs no problem at all. VRD's for instant have around 15 solid class A watts before they start to reach into the A/B mode. Just about every PP amplifier has some amount of Class A operation.

OK, but the vast majority of PP amps in the world today are class A/AB (95%+ I would guess), so when someone mentions PP it is safe to assume they are referring to a A/AB amplifier.

You know this is one of the huge problems I have with the SET camp... They will spend thousands of dollers and SET amps then compare it to an entry level PP design... spend dallor for doller and see where you get you may still love SET but I think your opinion opf PP will change. In reality If you want the pinacle of PP because of its more complex to properly implement you should have to spend more then you would on a SET amp. This is almost never the case.

If a PP amp has say 15 watts of class A operation the cold hard facts are that with our speakers the user will rarely reach outside that class A window of operation and at a very low distortion figure to boot.

None of these are possible (I don't believe) or at least not practicle, in a PP design. And I don't believe any of these are huge issues with topologies that have to deal with them.

See above wrong.... oh and many very simple PP designs exist. Problem is PP is hard to do right in an overly simple manor

I currently have SET with either single driver speakers or KHorns. That is not to say that SET is the only way, or even necessarily the best way, to make a good amplifier. SET is probaly not quite as good as you would think if you read what's on the internet, and is certainly no where nearly as bad as you would think if you read through this thread. It does simpler music and vocals exceptionally well, and it plays the classic rock I listen to well and as loud as I want (95 db+).

If you primarialy listen to loud music, or if your room is large, or if what SET offers does not turn you on, I would suggest another type of amp. But if you're like me and mostly use you rig to relax and chill at the end or beginning of the day, SET may just work for you.

See my comments above in bold

My bold comments below your bold comments

See my replies in Bold Italic.

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tri-amp tube system using a tube crossover. 100W for the lows, 50W for the mids, 20Ws for the highs. all the amps made by the same manufacturer, and are models in successsion within the line.

you might want to try bi-amping, keeping your SET for mids/highs, and using another amp for the lows.

I have also seen and played around with using impedeance multiplication concepts in between a SET amp and efficient speakers. Google "zero autoformer" for detail testimonials about folks who have tried this and liked the results.

if you need more info about autoformers, send me an email. btw, your email seems to be bouncing back.

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I just take issue when you use terms like "problems" that imply a SET amp is inherently inferior to a PP amp no matter the environment it's being used in. I can tell you that the SET amp that I own is superior to me to the PP and SS amps I own. To be honest, if someone were to post about the problems of other types of amplifiers that I disagreed with I'd take issue with that as well. Opinions are opinions, and facts are facts. I make it a point to state my opinions as opinions. "There are problems with SETs which limit the types of music that can be successfully reproduced through it" is not a fact. It is your opinion.

Are you trying to tell me that playing pipe organ music through a 3 watt amplifier won't reveal it's limitations? One cannot approach realistic reproduction of this type of music with such limited power. That is not an opinion, it's a fact. For softer music such an amp would probably work OK with efficient speakers, and that's my opinion.

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I would love to get some of you guys in a level matched blind listening scenario! You wouldn't believe the conclusions that you would reach, some of which would shatter your current notions. And, to answer Dr. Who's question earlier, yes it is very possible to achieve the midrange/top end smoothness of a triode while maintaining the bottom end of tetrode/pentode designs. I often accomplish that for folks with SEP designs and judicious use of voltage feedback at the output stage only, among other things. Drop me an e-mail if you want to discuss the electronics behind this- the forum isn't the place for long tutorials. If you do, I'll try to answer within 7-10 days as time permits.

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Well I personally think the SET crowd need to just come to the realization that what it is they enjoy about there SET amps is the type of distortion they produce. They enjoyed the more laid back euphoric presentation from the added harmonics... although they will be hard pressed to go to a live jazz, vocal or acoustic event and reproduce what they hear in the listening room but that's just fine with me. If you enjoy it that's what this is all about anyway.

But to try to state they are technically better in any way is just not the proper or reasonable approach. Because they are not. Heck I personally would use a quality SS amp first...Did I just say that ^%$^&_)(

I think you guys need to have some stylish Polo shirts made with "I love my SET amp and its 5% distortion It sounds like nothing else!"

Sorry folks I always get carried away in these crazy threads.

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But to try to state they are technically better in any way is just not the proper or reasonable approach. Because they are not. Heck I personally would use a quality SS amp first...Did I just say that ^%$^&_)(

OMG!!!!

[:D]
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From someone who knows 0 about tube amps and pre-amps, me, so I have no reason to have an opinion on any model I have a question ?

I read these threads but do not have any tubes, yet, but I have heard a few from the very tiny and cheap models to some that cost as much as a new car.

From every thing I have read just about every tube amp and Pre-amp has a somewhat different sound, and even just switching tubes can change the sound.

There must be at least hundreds of models with all different spec's and power output ratings, how come it appears that no one really gets there under ware in a knot with others opinions EXCEPT with SET VS everything else ?

I don't understand.........almost everything else including wires ( yes I said it ) can be settled with the Ole " well I just like the way they sound " or " I hear a difference " argument, but not this.

If one design is that much better you would think a fair percent of a large group would agree as it usually does with most general opinions about audio.

Since I am posting to something I know nothing about let me also say.[:o].......It seems a little silly to try to convince other people of facts or your interpretation of them, when you REALLY don't know the person your talking to....( they may know more than you ). A few people here have for many years made a living working on and designing new amps, pre-amps, crossovers of all designs just to name a few things, not even considering the people working for large audio related companies.

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