Reel to reel tape decks

[SSnyder]

2 tracks = half track early configraton 1950's prerecoded tapes pretty good costly

4 tracks = quartre track later configraton 1960s prerecrded tapes fare to lousey still not cheap

2 & 4 not compatable

15 inch per second >>>>>> no comercal perrecorded tapes

7 1/?2 inch per second >>>>>> best prerecorded tapes

3 & 3/4 inch per second >>>>>> most prerecorde tapes lousey

ReVox not Revox any two ajacent speed 15/16 1& 7/8 3and 3?4 7 and1/2 or 15

capacitoars and resisters in 1960's and 1970s'maybe end of lifespan WARNING

ReVox a77 netorius bad brake bands

REPEAT>>>>NO COMERCAL PRERECORD OPEN RELL WILL SOUND AS GOOD AS LP

[Ki Choi]

REPEAT>>>>NO COMERCAL PRERECORD OPEN RELL WILL SOUND AS GOOD AS LP

Hi Steve:

With all due respect, I disagree with you. There are many gems to be found in commercially prerecorded tapes that sound as good (or better) than the same recordings released on LPs.

Frank Sinatra's Live at Sands and Harry Belafonte's At Carnegie Hall come to mind... These are four track tapes. The Frank Sinatra is at only 3.75 ips speed even...and yet they are stunningly good.

Ki

[JL Sargent]

I would love to hear something tolerable at 3.75 ips. That hasn't happened yet. I certainly am no "golden ear" either.

I do not even mess with commercial tapes after trying a few disappointments. I like to record vinyl to 15 ips on Ampex Grand Master 456 or Quantegy. Mixed collections of rock, jazz, whatever the party calls for.[Y] I usually can tell immediately if the tape speed is slow on my recordings. The music is just not as dynamic + more noise IMHO. Listening to some AL Green on tape at the present.

[SSnyder]

Frank Sinatra's Live at Sands and Harry Belafonte's At Carnegie Hall come to mind... These are four track tapes. The Frank Sinatra is at only 3.75 ips speed even...and yet they are stunningly good.

Ki

aybe the "The accepttion that prooves the rule" as they say oops got to go

[LarryC]

2 & 4 not compatable

Overall, I agree. However, the track arrangement allows you to play a 2-track stereo tape on a 4-track stereo machine. You'll still get channel A and B, mono A or B only, or stereo. I have one half-track stereo prerecorded tape, and I can play it on a 1/4-track machine. However, the tape head's tracks only pick up about half of the quarter track's narrower track width on the tape, so the noise level is higher and it's probably not as good. You cannot play 4 recorded tracks, either stereo or mono, on a half-track head.

That may be about it, though; mixing 2- and 4-track presents complicated issues, mostly unsatisfactory, in recording and playback.

[LarryC]

I guess I am correct that the Revox has higher speeds and will take the 10" reels.

Check out the speeds of the one you choose. We saw one recorder on the forum that had an unbelievably useless 15/16 ips (!), probably made for background music. Don't get that speed combo!

IMO, it should have 7.5 and 3.75 ips, although it seems 15 and 7.5 would be OK, based on the conversation here. By far, 7.5 ips tapes seem the most common, but there are infrequent pre-recorded 3.75 ips tapes you might want to be able to play.

The other thing you MUST check out is whether is has 4-track stereo record AND playback heads! People would get all kinds of combos for their individual purposes and odd reasons, llike 4-track playback but 2-track record or whatever.

I think some decks had enought space, switching, and electronics for two playback heads along with the erase and record heads. For example, quarter-track and half-track playbacks. I guess that would be OK as long as the record head is quarter-track.

It really pays to check out those things.

EDIT: the Ebay ad for the Revox A-77 that Mike Lindsey posted, http://cgi.ebay.com/Mint-REVOX-STUDER-A77-4-Track-Stereo-taperecorder-/290506505358?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item43a3897c8e, has its facts down nicely: 7.5/3.34 ips, and 4-track.

[JL Sargent]

Anything less than 15 ips is inferior, period.

Not cheap but there are new high fidelity RTR recordings available today from the tape project. They are recorded 15 ips 1/4" tape on 1/2 track. Listen to a master recording in 15 ips and never go back. The link below is a review of "tape project" offerings.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue46/tape_project.htm

http://www.tapeproject.com/

Tape speed info from Wikipedia:

Tape speeds

In general, the faster the speed the better the sound quality. In
addition to faithfully recording higher frequencies and increasing the
magnetic signal strength and therefore the signal-to-noise ratio
(S/N), higher tape speeds spread the signal longitudinally over more
tape area, reducing the effects of defects in or damage to the medium.
Slower speeds conserve tape and are useful in applications where sound
quality is not critical.

• 15/16ths of an inch per second (in/s) or 2.38 cm/s — used for very long-duration recordings (e.g. recording a radio station's entire output in case of complaints, aka "logging")
• 1? in/s or 4.76 cm/s — usually the slowest domestic speed, best for long duration speech recordings
• 3¾ in/s or 9.52 cm/s — common domestic speed, used on most
  single-speed domestic machines, reasonable quality for speech and
  off-air radio recordings
• 7½ in/s or 19.05 cm/s — highest domestic speed, also slowest
  professional; used by most radio stations for "dubs", copies of
  commercial announcements; Through the early-mid '90s many stations could
  not handle 15 IPS.
• 15 in/s or 38.1 cm/s — professional music recording and radio programming
• 30 in/s or 76.2 cm/s — used where the best possible treble response is demanded, e.g., many classical music recordings

Speed units of inches per second
or in/s are also abbreviated IPS. 3¾ in/s and 7½ in/s are the speeds
that were used for (the vast majority of) consumer market releases of
commercial recordings on reel-to-reel tape. 3¾ in/s is also the speed
used in 8-track cartridges. 1? in/s is also the speed used in Compact cassettes.)

In some early prototype linear video tape recording systems developed in the early 1950s from companies such as Bing Crosby Enterprises, RCA, and the BBC's VERA,
the reel speed was extremely high, over 200 in/s, to adequately capture
the large amount of image information. The need for a high linear tape
speed was made unnecessary with the introduction of the now-obsolete
professional Quadruplex
system from 1956, which segmented the fields of a television image by
recording (and reproducing) several tracks at a high-speed across the
width of the tape per field of video by way of a spinning headwheel with
4 separate video heads mounted on its edge (a technique called transverse scanning), allowing for the linear tape speed to be much slower. Transverse scanning was superseded by the later technology of helical scanning, which could record one whole field of video per helically-recorded track, recorded at an angle across the width of the tape.

[JJkizak]

Useless information: According to my very old Ampex pro catalog/manual after 50 plays of a tape the high end frequency response looses 3 to 10 db on a very good machine. Also one 50 micron particle of cigarette smoke can loose you 3 to 10db on the high end. They also had a special 2" wow and flutter test tape for $300.00 that was the industry standard which was accidentally recorded almost perfect. (plus /minus 1db)

JJK

[JL Sargent]

I didn't know that about cigarette smoke, so smokers have yet another good reason to QUIT!

On the 50 plays, who can listen to ANYTHING that many times?

[SSnyder]

Not cheap but there are new high fidelity RTR recordings available today from the tape project. They are recorded 15 ips 1/4" tape on 1/2 track. Listen to a master recording in 15 ips and never go back. The link below is a review of "tape project" offerings.

hey're only THREE HUNDERD DOLLARS atape each!

[JL Sargent]

Just quit the smoking. There will be lots of $300s to spend on tapes. []

[RickFL]

Here is another idea. As reel tape is almost extinct and expensive try a DAT recorder. I

have one i use as it produces a digital quality recording on analog tape with hours of recording

time and the tapes(i use long length computer data type) which one can commonly

find at a reasonable price.

4 hours of recording time in long mode(with a 120 tape) with no noticible loss. In this mode highs are limited

to 17,000 hz which is all my Khorns can cover . In regular mode 20-20,000hz with two hours

of recording time.

[crd97086]

Well, ya'll, digital is where it is at. You order audiophiles haven't realized what digital can do. It is fantastic. CDs and a Marantz SA-11S2 are wonderful. I tried vinyl now being sold to my generation, and it doesn't have anything on digital. Why would you, or anyone, settle for a sound ceiling of 15 Khz? All this talk of older people, those over 45, not having good comprehension of a pile of you know what. Once again the media is selling and too many people are buying.

[joshnich]

Cant be sure, but its probably a good bet that most of folks here who are into analog didnt get there because they heard about it on CNN. Be my bet that they are into analog because they like the way it sounds. Just a guess.

[Travis In Austin]

I really have not decided to go this direction, but, taking into consideration that I know nothing about these critters. If you guy had to put a list to gether of say the top 3 or 4, 2 channel decks. Top price for a good functioning rebuilt unit, quality unit, say $500 to $750. Am I in the ballpark or all wet.

I have probably asked the question before but forgot, old age is hell.

Thanks

Cigarbum

Cigarbum,

From reading through this thread it sounds like you should start with a 4 track machine rather than a 2 track deck, simply because there is so much more in the way of prerecorded tapes in 4 track. You can play around with that deck and if you are pretty certain that you want to do some serious recording you can look for a two track deck.

In terms of the best of the best 4 track consumer deck Revox is going to be on that list, and Tandberg 10XD,the Tandberg is 3 speed,3.75, 7.5 and 15 ips, 4 track, and special record bias that allows a dynamic range approaching 90 db in the mid frequency. On a Tandberg you have to make sure they will stand behind it, there are no parts, and and just a handfull of people that can work on them. Soundsmith in NY will refurburish your unit for you but you will pay a ton for this. The Technics RS series decks are great, but the prices are sky high and are not worth the money given the limited playback quality (in my opinion). So unless you can steal one for four or five hundred, in great shape, I would avoid these two. With the Revox you want to make sure that it is in good working order, and the person selling will back them up. Stay away from Ebay sale where they are not going to allow you to return it.

Someone made a very good suggestion and that is the Otari MX 5050B-II, but you want to be sure it is the 4 head model. This gives you the best of both worlds, you can play back 4 track pre-recorded reels, and you can RECORD and play back 2 track tapes. Has all 3 speeds, 3.75, 7.5 and 15 IPS so you can figure out for yourself that the difference between 7.5 and 15 isn't really worrying about, and that there is no noticable hiss when you have a S/N ratio on these "modern" decks of over 70db. But, as also suggested, beware on these decks. The std. 3 head configuration will only allow you to record and play two track tapes. These decks were mostly used in professional settings and universities where they were used and abused almost to death. They are bought at auction and resold on ebay all the time. Again, if they won't stand behind it, I would pass. There is a guy in Florida who refurbishes a lot of Otari on Ebay, I have heard mixed reviews. If you see something specific, regardless of the brand, post it here and we can get you some quick feedback.

You may want to consider something like a Pioneer Rt 1011, it is an great, bullet proof deck, and not too much money to get your feet wet to see if you want to play around more with this. They are in the 150 to 250 range, will play 10" tapes, 4 track, 3.75 and 7.5 speeds. They are well built and never seem to fail. Teac 1000 and 2000 are great decks that are also bullet proof.

If you can find a nice Revox I am sure you will be happy with it, but you have other choices that are well within your budget.

Travis

[Travis In Austin]

Useless information: According to my very old Ampex pro catalog/manual after 50 plays of a tape the high end frequency response looses 3 to 10 db on a very good machine. Also one 50 micron particle of cigarette smoke can loose you 3 to 10db on the high end. They also had a special 2" wow and flutter test tape for $300.00 that was the industry standard which was accidentally recorded almost perfect. (plus /minus 1db)

JJK

JJ,

Recheck that manual, I don't think an Ampex manual will say anything about loss of anything at 50 plays. Maybe 5000 plays, but not 50, I could be wrong, but I have a lot of Ampex manuals and I have never read anything about loss frequency response by playback. As to the smoke particle, that is absolutly true, but a fingerprint, which is a fraction of that width can cause loss. But it is pretty easy to keep tape both smoke and fingerprint free. The attached article, at P. 22 discusses this along with all of the issues assocaited with tape storage, care, etc.

Travis

AP_NMLdoc_magtape_S_H.pdf

[Travis In Austin]

That's the nostalgia part I mentioned. Takes us back to our youth when we all wanted R2R machines.

When we all wanted R2R machines and Klipsch speakers. Nostalgia, kind of like Cornwalls and Heresys.[] Quality never goes out of style.

[JJkizak]

Dwilawyer:

The catalog is long gone. It wasn't a manual but a 3/4" thick iindustrial info book of some sort which had all of their machines mostly the 25 head 2" jobs. . But it did say 50 plays, not 5000.

JJK

[fini]

Cant be sure, but its probably a good bet that most of folks here who are into analog didnt get there because they heard about it on CNN. Be my bet that they are into analog because they like the way it sounds. Just a guess.

I don't know, Josh. When I heard that Wolf Blitzer had KG4s, I knew I'd have to have some, too...

[Travis In Austin]

Dwilawyer:

The catalog is long gone. It wasn't a manual but a 3/4" thick iindustrial info book of some sort which had all of their machines mostly the 25 head 2" jobs. . But it did say 50 plays, not 5000.

JJK

I have all of their main manuals, and it would be 2" 24 track, not 25, and most of those are going to be in their MM line and NONE of them talk about 50 plays, or any number for that matter, causing a loss of frequency response, added noise or anything else.

Ampex created a primer on magnetic recording called “Magnetic Recording Theory” where they state: “7. Tape can be played back thousands of times, which permits extracting every bit of usual information from the recording.”

What you were probably reading is the part where it says if you do not demagnitize your heads you can suffer problems either in the nature of added noise (HISS), or permanent partial loss of the high frequencies. It very possible that the manual suggested demagnetizing the heads every 50 plays, or 50 hours, to avoid the possibility of the heads becoming magnetized and damaging the recording (the current suggested rule of thumb is every 8 hours of play if you do not have a magnetometer to check).

EVERY Ampex manual I have ever seen says that you should demagnetize the heads if they become magnetized. The early ones stated it should be done if they become magnetized and didn’t set forth a specific interval. They stated that failing to do so would cause added noise of 10 to 12db. Later on they stated that it would cause added noise and permanent partial loss of high frequency reproduction, and they also started suggesting regular demagnetization at prescribed intervals of time.

But this is quite different then saying that playing a tape will cause loss of playback frequency response, it doesn’t. I just don’t want people to get the impression that playing their tape will cause damage to it, it doesn’t if your machine is clean, both tape path and heads, and you demagnetize your heads properly. As long as those parameters are met, and there are no issues with the tape material, they can play their tapes 50, 100 or even 500 times and they are not going to lose ANY frequency response in their tape.

Travis