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1986 Klipschorn AK-2


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On 7/2/2022 at 11:12 PM, Khornukopia said:

 

 I don't know of a conversion KIT, but you might be able to buy most of the necessary parts from Critesspeakers.com or an outlet named JEM ...

 

There is also a highly reputable crossover network builder here on the forum, but I never know if he is retired or is taking orders, so I will let him speak for himself. 🙂

 

On 7/3/2022 at 8:59 AM, Crankysoldermeister said:

I think it would be more accurate to say that the capacitors from JEM most closely approximate those used in the original circuit.

 

22 hours ago, Chief bonehead said:

Define “reputable”?

 

I, Khornukopia, posted the word "reputable" so guess i should define it.

 

Reputable: adjective: Having a good reputation

 

And if I may add my personal observation as a lifelong Klipsch devotee, @Crankysoldermeister is really well liked and admired in the audio community and has been a very good influencer on the popularity of Klipsch speakers amongst the world of passionate audio enthusiasts. 

 

Disclaimer; I have no personal, business, crossover network or any other relationship to @Crankysoldermeister.

 

Just thought I should point that out since there appears to be a connection between two other members on this thread.

 
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I am willing to bet for a 'Corporation' it is a question of economics...

 

Where longevity, minuscule margins and economies of scale are critical, it probably makes much more sense to the  'bottom line' to use more easily accessible, profitable and longer lasting components in areas where the micro effects of sonic improvements less critical.

 

just guessing... but when it comes to other market segments, these elements are well established as normality.

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1 hour ago, Khornukopia said:

 

 

 

I, Khornukopia, posted the word "reputable" so guess i should define it.

 

Reputable: adjective: Having a good reputation

 

And if I may add my personal observation as a lifelong Klipsch devotee, @Crankysoldermeister is really well liked and admired in the audio community and has been a very good influencer on the popularity of Klipsch speakers amongst the world of passionate audio enthusiasts. 

 

Disclaimer; I have no personal, business, crossover network or any other relationship to @Crankysoldermeister.

 

Just thought I should point that out since there appears to be a connection between two other members on this thread.

 

 

i personally have bought 8 sets of Deang or Crankys crossovers. 7 for the k-horn and 1 for the cornwall. the lastest caps are the V-caps or ODAM caps which i now have 2 sets and they are out of this world. i listen for at least 2 hrs of vinyl every night. my fav right now is Dire Straits album - on every street   its not believable

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17 hours ago, 001 said:

 

ok, this is a legitimate question not a "peanut gallery" comment... i have asked before but never really get a reply or explanation.  if the voltage curve is so important & its implied that changing caps will mess this up,  can you or someone explain how a given cap will change the curve or if that will have any noticeable affect on the sound?  its kind of a blanket statement to keep saying it will change the curve but no data or test results to show how much it will be changed.   im sure other people & companies that offer this type of service know about voltage curves & other aspects of crossover work to know if changing a cap would affect the sound or operation of the speaker so drastically. 

 

& more to that point, how do you know how much, if any, a certain type or brand of cap will change the voltage curve?  have numerous caps been compared to the "klipsch authorized" caps?  i realize a different type of cap such as a polypropylene will have different characteristics than the ones klipsch uses, but no comparisons have ever been provided.  so lets use similar caps as an example, will a polyester/mylar cap that is the same type as the original stock or jem caps change the voltage curve too? & if so, is it enough of a change to ever actually hear a difference? 

 

there are many of these types of caps out there, some state they use higher quality materials or higher quality manufacturing etc than others.  yet we have no details on these aspects from jem or klipsch, i recall reading the KSC or maybe T.I. marked caps klipsch used in the older generation 1.0 & 2.0 models like quartet, forte, chorus, KG, KLF etc were made in mexico with no claims of quality.  yet some brands stress their caps are made in germany & with high quality materials like dupont film etc.  so how is the average person supposed to know if one brand of similar caps are better than another in regards to voltage curves or quality? 

 

again, this is a legit question since the average guy has no way to determine these things & the statements given of "because i said so" are rather vague with no further info ever provided.  if its top secret or proprietary i understand, but to just keep saying any cap besides original klipsch or jem caps will change the voltage curve leaves a lot to be desired & doesnt help the average guy considering replacing aged caps or wanting to maybe try to improve/upgrade caps. 

 

it would be very helpful if you or someone with knowledge on this can shed some light on this subject as im sure there are others that want to know or learn...  clarifying the matter with some test results or data would probably help klipsch/jem & support that their caps are "superior" to other brands.    

 

    

 

 

001, I think your questions are very valid. I remember Roy addressing the issue months ago. And there were some good posts by Captainbeefheart on the subject of capacitors. BTW I hope CBH is well, he has not been in touch since May and he is a valuable contributor to this forum from my point of view.
Re the caps, the easiest way is if all components are from the present era, so we have to understand circuits in the context of their time. The components of the 1950s were different from those of the 1970s and so on. It's even a little cultural history. Not only the components are different. The music is also different, the taste in sound is different - we are different.

A comparison will help: What is the best engine oil? maybe a 0W30 full synthetic oil. It has the best running characteristics, the best heat resistance, the lowest friction values, the longest service life and much more. Let's assume that this 0W30 oil is a polypropylene cap with the lowest possible ESR, the greatest clarity etc. It is certainly a good choice for e.g. a very modern conventional loudspeaker. Ok, let's pour the best engine oil into the engine of a 1975 Porsche 911. It will be fine...no it won't. It will attack all the old sealing materials and the engine will need a lot of oil very quickly. In addition, the oil is much too thin and it can lead to piston seizure. Ok, what is the best oil for our 1975 911? It is the oil that was available at that time, a mineral 20W50 oil. That's what it was built for and that's what the oil was developed for.

The same applies to a 1975 Lascala...there was only what was available, to put it somewhat simplistically. But the fantastic thing is that all the parts work very well together and it forms an organic whole. I bet they didn't think so much about ESR, for example, back then. They did their calculations and tried parts on that basis and they saw when it had a super sound result. Then they did some fine tuning and that was it. Today we have to understand why the best polypropylene cap from now doesn't sound good in my 1977 LaScala and why synthetic oil harms the old Porsche, so we have more to think about it than in the past.

Captainbeefheart has pointed out a behaviour of the polyester cap (the appropriate one for old Klipsch Heritage speakers) that has nothing to do with the frequency range where we need it. It is about a high ESR at e.g. 200 Hz with a cap that we need at a crossover frequency of e.g. 6000 Hz. The modern polypropylene type would also be "good" at 200 Hz (low ESR). This would be wrong because the total impedance of the whole crossover network would get out of joint. 001, this is a result of CBHs measurements and therefore partly a reply to your question regarding some exploration re this topic.

 

This is just my amateurish attempt to explain why new components are not always better. Their "Q" would be wrong in the result for what the K401, for example, needs.
The consecutive question is why e.g. JEM as a support dealer. Quite simply because all interested customers with vintage Klipsch gear will receive components that have been tested….for a reasonable price. Firstly, it was an investment by Klipsch to test all possible cap types...to find one type behaving like the original old caps. Secondly, JEM offers values that the Klipsch crossovers need but are not commercially available.  Roy pointed out that it is important to take the right values into account because the caps are put in series after another e.g. in the AA type network, so a wrong value can multiply wrong effects. I personally would definitely buy JEM caps or start with their products when living in the US.  Furthermore, I would like to reiterate that I believe that basically every Klipsch lover should be free to do what they want...be it that they are happy with their choice of components, be it because they have had the great experience of their personal journey... I don't want to convert anyone.

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3 hours ago, Budman said:

 

i personally have bought 8 sets of Deang or Crankys crossovers. 7 for the k-horn and 1 for the cornwall. the lastest caps are the V-caps or ODAM caps which i now have 2 sets and they are out of this world. i listen for at least 2 hrs of vinyl every night. my fav right now is Dire Straits album - on every street   its not believable

Very cool.

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On 7/3/2022 at 8:38 AM, Khornukopia said:

I am curious about the woofer capacitor(s) substitution on the AK-2 kit from JEM, recently pictured on the forum. I would appreciate if you could explain the reason for the change from the original Paul Klipsch approved design. 

 

On 7/4/2022 at 1:00 PM, Chief bonehead said:

JEM discussed it with me. So approved. 

 

     Thank you

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10 hours ago, KT88 said:

 

Randy, I think your questions are very good and very valid. I remember Roy addressing the issue months ago. And there were some very good posts by Captainbeefheart on the subject of capacitors. BTW I hope CBH is well, he has not been in touch since May and he is a valuable contributor to this forum from my point of view.
I am just an interested layman. To put it less technically. It's about a particular component being available in different materials. There are two ways of looking at it. One is to think that the best is the best. What are the criteria for being the best? They are criteria that consider only the component itself...and an ideal place of use where all other components are also "the best". As long as you choose components that fit with other components, e.g. because they all come from the same time, then it can work. The easiest way is if all components are from the present time.
But now comes the clever part. You always have to understand circuits in the context of their time. The components of the 1950s were different from those of the 1970s and those of the 1990s were different again. It's even a little cultural history. Not only the components are different. The music is also different, the taste in sound is different - we are different. That is known as development.

As far as the components are concerned, perhaps this comparison will help: What is the best engine oil? Many people would say maybe a 0W30 full synthetic oil or for sporty driving maybe a 5W40 full synthetic oil. It has the best running characteristics, the best heat resistance, the lowest friction values, the longest service life and much more. Let's assume that this 0W30 oil is a polypropylene cap with the lowest possible ESR, the greatest clarity etc. It is certainly a good choice for e.g. a very modern conventional loudspeaker. Ok, let's pour the best engine oil into the engine of our beloved 1975 Porsche 911. It will be fine...no it won't. It will attack all the old sealing materials and the engine will need a lot of oil very quickly. In addition, the oil is much too thin and it can lead to piston seizure. Ok, what is the best oil for our 1975 911? It is the oil that was available at that time. That's what it was built for and that's what the oil was developed for. As with the speakers, it's just that there was what there was. There was no need for any shrill intellectual fine-tuning. It was an unconscious agreement. So the best oil for the 911 is a 20W50 mineral oil.

 

The same applies to a 1975 Lascala...there was only what was available, to put it somewhat simplistically. But the fantastic thing is that all the parts work very well together and it forms an organic whole. I bet they didn't think so much about ESR, for example, back then. They did their calculations and tried parts on that basis and they saw when it had a super sound result. Then they did some fine tuning and that was it.
The problem we are discussing simply has to do with the fact that time has not stood still. So today we have to understand why the best polypropylene cap doesn't sound good in my 1977 LaScala and why synthetic oil harms the old Porsche. 

Captainbeefheart has pointed out a behaviour of the polyester cap (the appropriate one for old Klipsch Heritage speakers) that has nothing to do with the frequency range where we need it. It is about a high ESR at e.g. 200 Hz with a cap that we need at a crossover frequency of e.g. 6000 Hz. The modern polypropylene type would also be "good" at 200 Hz (low ESR). This would be wrong because the total impedance of the whole crossover network would get out of joint. Randy, this is a result of CBHs measurements and therefore partly a reply to your question regarding some exploration re this topic.

 

This is just my amateurish attempt to explain why new components are not always better. Their "Q" would be wrong in the result for what the K401, for example, needs.
The consecutive question is why e.g. Jem as a support dealer. Quite simply because all interested customers with vintage Klipsch gear will receive components that have been tested….for a reasonable price…especially when I read that some people bjy 400USD caps but each to his own.  Firstly, it was an investment by Klipsch to test all possible cap types...to find one type behaving like the original old caps. Secondly, Jem offers values that the Klipsch crossovers need but are not commercially available.  Roy pointed out that it is important to take the right values into account because the caps are put in series after another e.g. in the AA type network, so a wrong value can multiply wrong effects. Personally, because of the cost of customs, shipping and import tax to Germany, I bought polyester caps off the shelf...not the exact values but within the 10% tolerance at 2.2uF. At 13uF the compromise was unfortunately bigger because I connected two 6.8uF in parallel...so the ESR is unfortunately "too good (low)" again. If I were in the USA, I would definitely buy Jem caps or maybe I would (like in Germany) play around a bit with old paper in oil caps (which behave similar like polyester types following CBHs measurements) as long as this PIO caps are still working..But TBH since one year I live in piece with the polyester caps.

 

Why do I write so much and steal time from readers (who do)? Because I want to make my contribution so that we here in the forum live in peace with each other. Caps are important and a few thoughts on them might be helpful...Furthermore, I would like to reiterate that I believe that basically every Klipsch lover should be free to do what they want...be it that they are happy with their choice of components, be it because they have had the great experience of their personal journey...please, I don't want to convert anyone.

This 001 is not Randy.

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20 hours ago, KT88 said:

 

001, I think your questions are very valid. I remember Roy addressing the issue months ago. And there were some good posts by Captainbeefheart on the subject of capacitors. BTW I hope CBH is well, he has not been in touch since May and he is a valuable contributor to this forum from my point of view.
Re the caps, the easiest way is if all components are from the present era, so we have to understand circuits in the context of their time. The components of the 1950s were different from those of the 1970s and so on. It's even a little cultural history. Not only the components are different. The music is also different, the taste in sound is different - we are different.

A comparison will help: What is the best engine oil? maybe a 0W30 full synthetic oil. It has the best running characteristics, the best heat resistance, the lowest friction values, the longest service life and much more. Let's assume that this 0W30 oil is a polypropylene cap with the lowest possible ESR, the greatest clarity etc. It is certainly a good choice for e.g. a very modern conventional loudspeaker. Ok, let's pour the best engine oil into the engine of a 1975 Porsche 911. It will be fine...no it won't. It will attack all the old sealing materials and the engine will need a lot of oil very quickly. In addition, the oil is much too thin and it can lead to piston seizure. Ok, what is the best oil for our 1975 911? It is the oil that was available at that time, a mineral 20W50 oil. That's what it was built for and that's what the oil was developed for.

The same applies to a 1975 Lascala...there was only what was available, to put it somewhat simplistically. But the fantastic thing is that all the parts work very well together and it forms an organic whole. I bet they didn't think so much about ESR, for example, back then. They did their calculations and tried parts on that basis and they saw when it had a super sound result. Then they did some fine tuning and that was it. Today we have to understand why the best polypropylene cap from now doesn't sound good in my 1977 LaScala and why synthetic oil harms the old Porsche, so we have more to think about it than in the past.

Captainbeefheart has pointed out a behaviour of the polyester cap (the appropriate one for old Klipsch Heritage speakers) that has nothing to do with the frequency range where we need it. It is about a high ESR at e.g. 200 Hz with a cap that we need at a crossover frequency of e.g. 6000 Hz. The modern polypropylene type would also be "good" at 200 Hz (low ESR). This would be wrong because the total impedance of the whole crossover network would get out of joint. 001, this is a result of CBHs measurements and therefore partly a reply to your question regarding some exploration re this topic.

 

This is just my amateurish attempt to explain why new components are not always better. Their "Q" would be wrong in the result for what the K401, for example, needs.
The consecutive question is why e.g. JEM as a support dealer. Quite simply because all interested customers with vintage Klipsch gear will receive components that have been tested….for a reasonable price. Firstly, it was an investment by Klipsch to test all possible cap types...to find one type behaving like the original old caps. Secondly, JEM offers values that the Klipsch crossovers need but are not commercially available.  Roy pointed out that it is important to take the right values into account because the caps are put in series after another e.g. in the AA type network, so a wrong value can multiply wrong effects. I personally would definitely buy JEM caps or start with their products when living in the US.  Furthermore, I would like to reiterate that I believe that basically every Klipsch lover should be free to do what they want...be it that they are happy with their choice of components, be it because they have had the great experience of their personal journey... I don't want to convert anyone.

 

thanks for the reply, your explanation helps somewhat,  but still hoping for some type of explanation regarding what this voltage curve actually means for the average person that changes caps & what they will actually hear by changing to a different style cap like a polypropylene.  if the voltage curve difference will change the sound so much why would "reputable" (thanks for the definition of that word @Khornukopia ) people do this for so long & how is it that so many people for so long have loved the sound of PP caps?  myself included, i notice no negative changes to the sound of multiple klipsch speakers i have changed caps on to just budget PP caps, as well as many other brands of speakers.  It has always made a noticeable improvement in sound to me & other friends that have heard them... & to the whole mylar caps dont ever fail thing,  my personal example is a pair of chorus2 i own that sounded like a towel was covering the fronts when i got them,  changed to PP caps, it was night & day improvement... i also had 2 other pair of chorus2 here at the time that were stock caps, they sounded fine, so the caps in the other pair definitely failed for some reason, the prev original owner that was 65 years old lived in an apartment & listened to classical or jazz music, said he rarely if ever turned them up. 

 

but the other question that i asked was more about using the same type of caps, meaning polyester/mylar but of another brand.  how or why would that change the voltage curve if they are the same types of caps?  using different polypropylene caps doesnt apply there...  so im genuinely curious if or why using the same type of cap, possibly better quality, would change the voltage curve & if so what does that mean for actual sound or function of the speaker?  the rest of the question was regarding if the other brands of similar caps have been compared to jem or what actually makes jem "authorized" or as stated a few times now... "superior?"  they are both valid questions for guys considering changing their caps with the same type as original or going to what is usually considered a much better quality PP cap.     i hope thats not too much to ask.       

 

-- as for the oil analogy, i respectfully disagree with that, i own & have been building & racing classic muscle cars for 30+ years & am very familiar with oil technology & changes over the years.  a synthetic oil will not "attack" any sealing gaskets, it may have more cleaning agents that can clean built up sludge & can find its way past compromised or failed gaskets, but it doesnt attack the actual gasket at all.  i run synthetic in 2 different classic cars as well as a daily driver 25+ year old jeep 4.0 & they do not leak any more than the same weight of conventional oil does.  if you have old/bad gaskets then using conv oil is kind of a band aid to reduce leaks. 

  also a synthetic oil of the correct weight the engine calls for wont cause piston seizure or any other damage, synthetics are the same basic weight as conv oil & meet the same required specs for any given weight, they just may flow a little better at cold temps due to the different/better make up of the molecules.  i have never heard of or seen piston seizure using the proper weight of synthetic oil.  there is no oil today that is the same as almost 50 years ago, so you cant use or buy oils that were used back then, that would be like a SE grade!  oils back then were horrible aside from maybe the high zddp (zinc/phos) content, oils back then were notorious for sludge problems & probably contributed to or caused countless engine damage or failures.  todays oil, both synthetic & conv are far better than oil of even 20-25 years ago.  you can use a synthetic or regular 20/50 in a 1977 porsche, chevy, ford, mopar etc if that is the weight the engine calls for with zero negative effects on the pistons or running engine as a whole.  but yes old deteriorated gaskets can leak more on synthetic, if the gaskets are good synthetic is fine & of much better quality than standard oil.  but just like speakers & capacitors, i realize oil is a touchy subject for some & will get all kinds of opinions based on old myths, not modern facts.  sorry for the long reply on oil, i may be a novice on crossovers but when it comes to cars, engines or oils, i definitely have lots of experience & do all my own assembly & work aside from the actual machine work on the engines. 

 

thanks again for the reply, it was helpful. hopefully we can get some more info on this subject so guys can make better educated decisions.            

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2 hours ago, 001 said:

 

thanks for the reply, your explanation helps somewhat,  but still hoping for some type of explanation regarding what this voltage curve actually means for the average person that changes caps & what they will actually hear by changing to a different style cap like a polypropylene.  if the voltage curve difference will change the sound so much why would "reputable" (thanks for the definition of that word @Khornukopia ) people do this for so long & how is it that so many people for so long have loved the sound of PP caps?  myself included, i notice no negative changes to the sound of multiple klipsch speakers i have changed caps on to just budget PP caps, as well as many other brands of speakers.  It has always made a noticeable improvement in sound to me & other friends that have heard them... & to the whole mylar caps dont ever fail thing,  my personal example is a pair of chorus2 i own that sounded like a towel was covering the fronts when i got them,  changed to PP caps, it was night & day improvement... i also had 2 other pair of chorus2 here at the time that were stock caps, they sounded fine, so the caps in the other pair definitely failed for some reason, the prev original owner that was 65 years old lived in an apartment & listened to classical or jazz music, said he rarely if ever turned them up. 

 

but the other question that i asked was more about using the same type of caps, meaning polyester/mylar but of another brand.  how or why would that change the voltage curve if they are the same types of caps?  using different poly caps doesnt apply there...  so im genuinely curious if or why using the same type of cap, possibly better quality, would change the voltage curve & if so what does that mean for actual sound or function of the speaker?  the rest of the question was regarding if the other brands of similar caps have been compared to jem or what actually makes jem "authorized" or as stated a few times now... "superior?"  they are both valid questions for guys considering changing their caps with the same type as original or going to what is usually considered a much better quality PP cap.     i hope thats not too much to ask.       

 

-- as for the oil analogy, i respectfully disagree with that, i own & have been building & racing classic muscle cars for 30+ years & am very familiar with oil technology & changes over the years.  a synthetic oil will not "attack" any sealing gaskets, it may have more cleaning agents that can clean built up sludge & can find its way past compromised or failed gaskets, but it doesnt attack the actual gasket at all.  i run synthetic in 2 different classic cars as well as a daily driver 25+ year old jeep 4.0 & they do not leak any more than the same weight of conventional oil does.  if you have old/bad gaskets then using conv oil is kind of a band aid to reduce leaks. 

  also a synthetic oil of the correct weight the engine calls for wont cause piston seizure or any other damage, synthetics are the same basic weight as conv oil & meet the same required specs for any given weight, they just may flow a little better at cold temps due to the different/better make up of the molecules.  i have never heard of or seen piston seizure using the proper weight of synthetic oil.  there is no oil today that is the same as almost 50 years ago, so you cant use or buy oils that were used back then, that would be like a SE grade!  oils back then were horrible aside from maybe the high zddp (zinc/phos) content, oils back then were notorious for sludge problems & probably contributed to or caused countless engine failures.  todays oil, both synthetic & conv are far better than oil of even 20-25 years ago.  you can use a synthetic or regular 20/50 in a 1977 porsche, chevy, ford, mopar etc if that is the weight the engine calls for with zero negative effects on the pistons or running engine as a whole.  but yes old deteriorated gaskets can leak more on synthetic, if the gaskets are good synthetic is fine & of much better quality than standard oil.  but just like speakers & capacitors, i realize oil is a touchy subject for some & will get all kinds of opinions based on old myths, not modern facts.  sorry for the long reply on oil, i may be a novice on crossovers but when it comes to cars, engines or oils, i definitely have lots of experience & do all my own assembly & work aside from the actual machine work on the engines. 

 

thanks again for the reply, it was helpful. hopefully we can get some more info on this subject so guys can make better educated decisions.            

 

Oh, with the analogy to engine oil I addressed the right one :) Sorry, it was just an example of how things and requirements change over the years. Unfortunately I made obviously false claims, even though our three 60's and 70's cars run on mineral oil (of today's production without oil sludge).

 

I hope other members will come forward with better expertise and explain that a certain measurable voltage curve of a capacitor is the result of its ESR characteristics. So with a higher ESR (equivalent series resistance) the voltage drop is greater. And this is also dependent on the frequency being measured. 
If you like the sound of polypropylene caps, use them. Unfortunately, some users only compare old worn out polyester original Klipsch caps with brand new PP caps. Then they like the new PP caps better, but they have not heard how good new unused polyester caps can sound in terms of the characteristics of frequency balance between all three drivers, the timing of the drivers to each other and also in the characteristics of a more natural midrange and treble horn sound.

Regarding brands, I would think that the reputable polyester cap brands are very comparable and hardly sound different. There is little marketing hue and cry because this are relatively cheap caps, even the good ones.
As I said it before...the USP of JEM is that only there you get the correct capacitance values like e.g. 13 uF or 2 uF.

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BTW old Russian paper in oil caps are preferred by some users. They have a very comparable ESR to the polyester caps but they sound fuller and more natural according to their users. There are older types but they are cast in glass and usually never leak, some people use Russian MBGO and K75 cap types which they are very happy with. E.g. 2uF types are available and 13uF could be put together using 2 of those PIO in parallel, e.g. 10 uF + 3 uF.

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23 hours ago, KT88 said:

 

Oh, with the analogy to engine oil I addressed the right one :) Sorry, it was just an example of how things and requirements change over the years. Unfortunately I made obviously false claims, even though our three 60's and 70's cars run on mineral oil (of today's production without oil sludge).

 

I hope other members will come forward with better expertise and explain that a certain measurable voltage curve of a capacitor is the result of its ESR characteristics. So with a higher ESR (equivalent series resistance) the voltage drop is greater. And this is also dependent on the frequency being measured. 
If you like the sound of polypropylene caps, use them. Unfortunately, some users only compare old worn out polyester original Klipsch caps with brand new PP caps. Then they like the new PP caps better, but they have not heard how good new unused polyester caps can sound in terms of the characteristics of frequency balance between all three drivers, the timing of the drivers to each other and also in the characteristics of a more natural midrange and treble horn sound.

Regarding brands, I would think that the reputable polyester cap brands are very comparable and hardly sound different. There is little marketing hue and cry because this are relatively cheap caps, even the good ones.
As I said it before...the USP of JEM is that only there you get the correct capacitance values like e.g. 13 uF or 2 uF.

 

i use conventional oil in one of my cars too, but only for the higher zinc for the flat tappet cam & its cheaper priced. 

 

i hope we get a understandable but basic explanation too, that is why im asking, majority of audio guys like to understand the why or reason something works or does what it does, or at least try to understand from a laymen's terms explanation. 

 

i do like the PP caps & so do countless others, i agree some are comparing to old or out of spec caps, but some on here have said the stock caps dont fail or at least not in our lifetime.  my experience was they did "fail" to change the sound terribly, & im a long time klipsch owner & had forte 2 at the same time, hooked up the chorus in the same exact spot on same system & was very disappointed... changed to budget PP caps & they sounded like brand new speakers.  about 1 year lateer i bought 2 pair of chorus 2 & compared them as directly as i could, to me there was a noticeable but slight improvement in the mids/tweets, especially at higher volumes. 

 

that is also the reason im asking about changing to the same style but different brand polyester caps, if there is a audible difference i would like to compare that & possibly change to PE caps from PP in my chorus2 & forte2... but being on a budget i would possibly try a different brand than jem if it can be confirmed they would be generally the same as far as ESR or voltage curve because im pretty sure nobody can hear the difference from a minimal difference in esr, heck capacitance values can vary up to 10% on new caps. the other brand polyester cap im looking at is 5% tolerance & they offer the same values that most these era of older klipsch speakers use, pretty sure they can make ones they dont have too. 

 

again, just hoping to learn a little on this issue to help with future decisions, maybe i will jump on the polyester bandwagon?   

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9 minutes ago, 001 said:

again, just hoping to learn a little on this issue to help with future decisions, maybe i will jump on the polyester bandwagon?   

I have to admit to being interested in this idea too or at least enough to try them once and see.

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9 hours ago, 001 said:

 

i use conventional oil in one of my cars too, but only for the higher zinc for the flat tappet cam & its cheaper priced. 

 

i hope we get a understandable but basic explanation too, that is why im asking, majority of audio guys like to understand the why or reason something works or does what it does, or at least try to understand from a laymen's terms explanation. 

 

i do like the PP caps & so do countless others, i agree some are comparing to old or out of spec caps, but some on here have said the stock caps dont fail or at least not in our lifetime.  my experience was they did "fail" to change the sound terribly, & im a long time klipsch owner & had forte 2 at the same time, hooked up the chorus in the same exact spot on same system & was very disappointed... changed to budget PP caps & they sounded like brand new speakers.  about 1 year lateer i bought 2 pair of chorus 2 & compared them as directly as i could, to me there was a noticeable but slight improvement in the mids/tweets, especially at higher volumes. 

 

that is also the reason im asking about changing to the same style but new polyester caps, if there is a audible difference i would like to compare that & possibly change to PE caps from PP in my chorus2 & forte2... but being on a budget i would possibly try a different brand if it can be confirmed they would be generally the same as far as ESR because im pretty sure nobody can hear the difference from a minimal difference in esr, heck capacitance values can vary up to 10% on new caps. the other brand polyester cap im looking at is 5% tolerance & they offer the same values that most these era of older klipsch speakers use, pretty sure they can make ones they dont have too. 

 

again, just hoping to learn a little on this issue to help with future decisions, maybe i will jump on the polyester bandwagon?   

 

I bought polyester caps off the shelf because JEM is too expensive to ship to Germany with customs, import tax and shipping. JEM for my 1977 LaScala would have cost 170 USD by the time they got to me, so I bought polyester caps from Mouser, Nichcon and Kemet for a handful of dollars. So I was at 25 USD for everything together. Like you, I thought I was still within the 10% tolerance with 2.2 uF and 2x 6.8 uF instead of 1 x 13 uF. 

I would do it the same way if I were you. This way you can test whether the polyester route is satisfactory for you...with very good brands and low costs. But of course it is not so exact in comparison with the real values which are only offered by JEM.

 

 

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19 hours ago, KT88 said:

 

I bought polyester caps off the shelf because JEM is too expensive to ship to Germany with customs, import tax and shipping. JEM for my 1977 LaScala would have cost 170 USD by the time they got to me, so I bought polyester caps from Mouser, Nichcon and Kemet for a handful of dollars. So I was at 25 USD for everything together. Like you, I thought I was still within the 10% tolerance with 2.2 uF and 2x 6.8 uF instead of 1 x 13 uF. 

I would do it the same way if I were you. This way you can test whether the polyester route is satisfactory for you...with very good brands and low costs. But of course it is not so exact in comparison with the real values which are only offered by JEM.

 

 

 

just to clarify, many brands including the ones im looking at & have bought PP from many times, do have the "real values" for the majority of these older klipsch heritage & extended heritage or KLF/KG models,  most these speakers use standard values, lots of 1.5, 2.0, 3, 5, 6 etc etc, majority of companies offer these values.  if not some can probably make them based on what they told me last time i ordered caps a few years ago.

 

for the most part, other brands offer the same correct values for most klipsch speakers as jem, aside from maybe a couple oddities, but again these caps are 10% tolerance so deviating from the stated value a few decimal points shouldn't matter too much to the for average use, high dollar very critical situations are of course different.  i asked recently about some KG4 i recapped, one of the new caps was off by about .2 but still well within the 10% value, every member here that replied said it would be fine if they are off by 1-2%, the caps i used were 5% tolerance & some claim to be 1%.

 

the price is the other main reason im asking about other brand PE cap options,  every single brand that sells PE/mylar caps they are about .50- $1 ea or maybe a couple bucks ea for larger values, there is all of about 4-6 caps for most models of this era,  strange that jem charges $40-$50 for 4 chorus or forte mylar caps from what ive seen posted, but i havent checked on that recently... seems like a rather high markup for these caps with no mention of quality.  

 

so far doesnt look like i/we are going to get much info or confirmation on this subject, & thats fine if klipsch doesnt want to comment on this,  im sure i could research this for awhile or ask other "reputable' people/companies that do this type of crossover work or much more intricate complete audio repair/restorations... just thought id inquire with the source in hopes of some help & input....         

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15 hours ago, Crankysoldermeister said:

Someone is going to have to pay me to read all of that.

 

i'll give you a dollar to read it, but you gotta reply with some sort of explanation or even just your opinion on the matter.  its not really that long compared to some other posts ive seen on here & is pretty direct & to the point... but yes some rambling with personal experiences & replies to off topic oil comments.  still a few very valid questions that have never really been addressed or clarified.    

 

but heres the condensed version:

 

1> pick a common budget PP cap like sonicap or dayton etc- how much of a voltage curve change will happen vs klipsch/jem caps?  & at what point will that actually affect the sound or function of the speakers for the average person?  i get that the voltage curve is important, but if you cant hear it & it wont damage the speakers why all the fuss?  just trying to understand. 

 

2> now pick a common polyester cap similar to klipsch or jem, if its the same type of cap, how much if any will that change the voltage curve/sound/function?  

 

3> can we get any mention or description of jem quality vs other decent brand similar PE caps?  im trying to understand why caps that cost .50-$1ea everywhere else cost 10x that to buy from jem?   

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I read your post, but you were addressing @Chief bonehead

 

https://wiraelectrical.com/crossover-network/

 

Like so many things, there is the surface understanding of a thing, and then the much deeper understanding. Since I'm not an engineer, it shouldn't be hard to figure out which side of this I'm on. A true understanding uses a language called "math". I have no idea what it is.

 

It makes sense that if you use different parts, then you are changing the original transfer function(s). The questions are, 1) how much, and 2) is it always bad.

 

I'm in discussion with Roy right now and I think he's trying to figure out if he should fire me or not.

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