Blvdre Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 It sounds like you're trading priorities. You're using a less efficient driver to gain extension. How did you balance the drivers without taking measurments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 The Heresy, like the rest of the Heritage and most of the Klipsch line was designed in accordance with certain principles (8 cardinal rules). You have violated the letter and the spirit of the first two of those principles by which the Heresy is defined. You didn't mention any neck bolt electrodes in the parts list, but what you have is clearly more like the creation from Mary Shelly's novel than a real Heresy. [8-)] PWK didn't choose to use a rubber surround high excurtion lower efficiency woofer for a reason (distortion). I didn't follow your description so well about the network mods including leaving the resistors off the tweets, but I got the feeling your tweeter might be in jepardy, especially if you are chasing the "slam" sound after lowering the woofer efficiency, thereby requiring much more power. How many watts do you figure your tweets are consuming at "slam" volume? IIRC they are good to handle about 5W. You should know better that the stipulation for the internal wires be 12awg and exact lengths is quite absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antone Posted February 8, 2011 Author Share Posted February 8, 2011 pauln wrote, "You have violated the letter and the spirit of the first two of those principles by which the Heresy is defined. You didn't mention any neck bolt electrodes in the parts list, but what you have is clearly more like the creation from Mary Shelly's novel than a real Heresy. PWK didn't choose to use a rubber surround high excurtion (sic) lower efficiency woofer for a reason (distortion). I didn't follow your description so well about the network mods including leaving the resistors off the tweets, but I got the feeling your tweeter might be in jepardy (sic), especially if you are chasing the "slam" sound after lowering the woofer efficiency, thereby requiring much more power. How many watts do you figure your tweets are consuming at "slam" volume? IIRC they are good to handle about 5W.You should know better that the stipulation for the internal wires be 12awg and exact lengths is quite absurd." (Emphases Antone's) My, my, such vitriol ! Don't suck me into an 'authenticity' debate, and you don't WANT to go to the topic of "Spirit violation", Rainbow Boy. The Heresy's original sensitivity at 1 kHz (all squawker) for 1 watt at 3 feet was 96 dB. My network modification for the squawker consists entirely of polypropylene capacitor substitution, 33muF and 2muF, of the stale electrolytics. This resulted in a slightly louder squawker, so the Heresy's "efficiency" was increased slightly. My sole network mod for the tweeter is the subsitution of its one capacitor--previously a 2-muF, motor-run style cap--with a 1.800-muF polypropylene . The polypropylene capacitors are just a bit louder than the ones they replace, but 1.8 muF blocks a bit more of the spectrum than 2 muF, so the tweeters are receiving about the same energy as they did before. A polypropylene cap is closer to being an ideal capacitor than a 30-year-old can filled with 30-year-old goo, so the distortion is lower. Speaking of distortion, as a music lover/performer I can assure you that too-quiet, too-shallow bass is a more-irritating sonic coloration than a tiny bit of IM or TH Distortion. Besides, my power amp exhibits less than 0.005% IM Distortion anywhere in the band and less than 0.0015% THD midband (even less at bass frequencies), so I can afford any realistic bass driver-induced distortion increase. Being labelled 'high-excursion" causing distortion seems like sophistry on account of that the K22, with its pleated cloth surround, exhibited about the same amount of excursion as the Dayton driver, with its more-airtight rubber roll. I do not understand why some believe that the Dayton woofers are so much less efficient. The K22's are louder in the midbass but quieter in the low, true bass than the Daytons. My sole remaining network modification is substitution of the woofer's relatively resistant (0.5 Ohm) open-bracket-style, low-pass coil with a much less resistant (0.072 Ohm)--hence causing a much-smaller voltage drop before the woofer--nearly ideal toroidal inductor. Between the almost 7- times- lower resistance (therefore louder) and the 0.2 mH lower inductance (therefore compensating for the Dayton driver's steeper upper-end roll-off, hence louder) of my low-pass coil, the Dayton ST305 (with its 6.0-Ohm Direct Current Resistance drawing more current than the K22's 7.0-Ohm DCR) puts out smooth, extended, deep, punchy bass commensurate to the virtually-unchanged, with regard to average power, combined tweeter- and squawker-output. They sound MUCH better and more honest. They actually sound perfectly satisfactory and warm at lower listening levels with my mods, so I don't worry about the tweeters. I still, as always, use the Klipsch-recommended, 2-Ampere, fast-blow speaker fuses; it's the woofers which draw more current now, not the tweeters, so they are perfectly safe. Thank you for pointing me to Mr. Klipsch's writings, but keep in mind that the Heresy was originally intended (in the 1950's) to be a center channel between two Klipschorns, and consequently stand-alone bass wasn't part of its design. My modifications obviate my previous decades-long desire for a sub-woofer. I did NOT AT ALL change the architecture of the balancing network; it's still Mr. Klipsch's crossover circuit. Regarding my "absurd" wire length and thickness specifications, keeping the lengths the same AS THE ORIGINAL RESPECTIVE WIRES' LENGTHS is to forestall any big step-response deviations from factory design. Maybe you mistakenly thought that I meant 'same length as each other'. The four wires I replaced were the two from the woofer to the crossover and the two from the back panel to the crossover; their respective lengths match those of the wires they replace. As for the thickness, think about it; the new inductor coil is wound with 14-gauge wire for lower resistance as well as huge power-handling, so I replaced all four 18-gauge wires between the new woofer and the back cabinet-panel input screws with the thickest I have on hand, 12 gauge. (Woofers are current-hungry.) I respect the original crossovers, but there were some large discrepancies, Left speaker to Right. The old (20- gauge wirewound) woofer inductors exhibited a 0.15 mH (4%) difference from left speaker to the right, causing one Heresy's bass to sound different from the other one's. My inductors match each other to the hundredth of a mH (0.2% at worst). My tweeter caps match L to R and their rating to one thousandth of an Ohm (0.055%) the old ones were off their rating by 4.5%. The old squawker caps were off their rating by 5.4% and from each other by 3%; mine are within 1% of rating and within 0.5% of each other. The imaging is stable and much more convincing. Did you catch the irony? You accused me of Heresy heresy. Not so, I've improved my listening experience with a Genuine Klipsch Heresy with stuffed enclosure, upgraded woofer and woofer-inductor, and polypropylene caps, so it can stand on its own, instead of between two Klipschorns. No Hard Feelings? Happy Listening. Antone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 "Heresy heresy"; you are right, and that is kind of funny. Hey, no hard feelings at all, your response is appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antone Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 Thanks for burying the hatchet. Let me say that I'm impressed with your list of euipment; you have more and higher-end stuff than I do. (I like Danish phono cartridges, too.) In fact, many of this forum's contributors have awesome collections. My motivation for relating my upgrade procedures was always merely to offer other aficionados the benefit of my experience, not to show off. These mods really do result in the sound improvements that I've detailed, and I felt pushed into defending myself, thereby seeming defensive . Sorry about that. All is forgiven. Happy Listening. Antone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 As I read through this thread I find myself wanting to ask, " Antone, why not just get subwoofers?" That way you could get low distortion and all the slam you could want. There are many Heresy users here doing exactly that with excellent results. In the professional music world 12 inch + horn tops along with subs is a fairly standard small FOH setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I don't wish to speak for Antone but it sounds to me like he likes to tweak...Antone...if true, that's what it's all about...tweak away...PWK did... Bill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironsave Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 As I read through this thread I find myself wanting to ask, " Antone, why not just get subwoofers?" That way you could get low distortion and all the slam you could want. There are many Heresy users here doing exactly that with excellent results. In the professional music world 12 inch + horn tops along with subs is a fairly standard small FOH setup. Yep; +1!!!!! (See my signature). That being said; the mods mentioned by the OP intrigue me. Wish an A-B was possible to listen to...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Forthe record, I must admit to experimenting with the Heresys I had for 30 years. One time when I had the backs off to retighten network screws I set them up and played them (quietly) to hear how the bass would sound with open backs... sounded quite different, bigger but not louder, maybe juicier or more sloppy... but not really bad at all. Of course without backs they can't take any volume without approaching damage. I also changed the autoformer connections for the mid and tweet to drop them both 3dB (and added some components to minimize shifting the crossover frequencies) so that the mid/tweet balance matched that of the big Heritage (Heresy horns are relatively +3dB compared to the big Heritage because they are made for the floor and project from the lower elevation). I was trying to see how they would work up on stands a la audiophile style... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironsave Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Forthe record, I must admit to experimenting with the Heresys I had for 30 years. One time when I had the backs off to retighten network screws I set them up and played them (quietly) to hear how the bass would sound with open backs... sounded quite different, bigger but not louder, maybe juicier or more sloppy... but not really bad at all. Of course without backs they can't take any volume without approaching damage. I also changed the autoformer connections for the mid and tweet to drop them both 3dB (and added some components to minimize shifting the crossover frequencies) so that the mid/tweet balance matched that of the big Heritage (Heresy horns are relatively +3dB compared to the big Heritage because they are made for the floor and project from the lower elevation). I was trying to see how they would work up on stands a la audiophile style... Nice! I believe I have seen this mentioned here.... Do you remember how you did it? ( Where you move the wires to; etc?) If not; I will try searching here..... I think Groomslakearea was into some Heresy mods as well. (If I am mistaken; I apologize; believe it was him though). I am considering the acoustic padding mentioned in the original post; I wonder if it would make a difference....... (Low cost mod with possible impact,easy to undo)..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antone Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 That is a good question. I'll bet someone (at least one) on this forum has great suggestions for a subwoofer system that blends seamlessly with the Heresy; I would be glad to read them. (I also wonder if any cost $450 or less.) The wimpy bass my Heresy's produced was only one of the problems I had with my speakers. I had trouble with the upper midrange/treble balance (bright and honky compared to the lower midrange), and I found the stereo image prone to wandering. A fourth problem was that the overall sound seemed opaque and muddy. The new polypropylene caps purified, solidified and stabilized the squawker's output. The polypropylene tweeter cap, with its 10% lower capacitance than the original, sweetened, smoothed and crystallized the treble, while the exact match of values between L & R made for a rock-solid soundstage. The Heresy's now sound much more transparent, plus the new, more macho woofer and inductor yield plenty of deep, tangible, fast, clean bass. All these mods for around $225 per speaker. They sound less distorted than before, too. I love them. Happy Listening. Antone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
folkdeath95 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Hi Antone, I'm a little lost with all your crossover modifications. No offense to you, I think it's mainly because of my english skill. Could you please post a drawing of your new crossovers (maybe by modififying the Type E drawing that can be found here. Thanks.[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antone Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 Hello, folkdeath, Thanks for the schematic link. Looking at the Heresy schematic I see at least two differences between it and my 1981 Heresy's E network (prior to my modifications); one is the missing 33muF capacitor. Also, my original woofer inductor yielded 3.8mH (L) and 3.94mH ®, while the schematic shows a 2.5mH coil. (I wonder if that schematic is from a much older Heresy.) I will take my crossover out and get the details. I'll get back to you. Happy Listening. Antone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
folkdeath95 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 It seems that your crossover is a type E2. It could explain why I was a little lost when you talked about this 33µF capacitors that mine doesn't have. I thought the Type E2 was made for Heresy II, but it seems that I was wrong and that this crossover was used on Heresy I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antone Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 Folkdeath, Yes, I see finally that there is a '2' faintly embossed in the aluminum network nameplate right after the red printed 'E' on my crossover, so I do have E2 networks. My Heresy's use K77M tweeters, which, I believe were changed to something else for the Heresy II. The only differences between the 'E' and my modded 'E2' are: reversed polarity of the squawker outputs (easily done by just switching the two wires); adding the 33 muF (polypropylene) cap (not called for in the 'E' crossover), one lead attached to the woofer 'plus' output screw, and the other cap lead to the woofer 'minus' output screw; replacing the 2 muF spam can which has one lead attached to the tweeter minus screw and the other cap lead to the number 3 tap on the 'T2A' transformer-looking thing with a polypropylene 1.8 muF; and replacing the 2muF spam can which has one lead attached to the 'plus' Input screw and the other lead to the number 5 tap on the 'T2A' assembly; the remaining difference is my Dayton woofer needs a different inductance value, 3.71 mH instead of 2.5 mH in the 'E' network (4 mH in the 'E2'). All values are as measured OUT of the circuit . If your older Heresy's (like mine) use K77M tweeters, K52H squawkers and K22E woofers, then you can easily upgrade your 'E' to an 'E2' with a new woofer inductor, a 33muF cap, and reversed squawker output polarity. Earlier in my postings I shared my parts list. Happy modding. Antone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I generally call the Heresy with the component group that you have the Heresy 1.5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan man Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Hi Antone, after numerous attempts to log on here, finally. Firstly let me applaud your succesful and neccesary mod to your Heresys. Second ,in staving off the "measuring" nay sayers ,who just don' get it. I submiited a thread on Audiokarma which eerily resembles yours , which started about the same time as well. It's titled "Got Bass" on the klipsch corner. Please check it out. Pror to buying these, I had no respect for Klipsches (at least the Heresys) for that matter, for these very reasons we are addressing. Now , I'm enjoying something I never thought I'd ever give the time day to. Stan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Driver Properties Name: 295-120 Type: Standard one-way driver Company: Dayton Loudspeaker Co. Comment: Series II No. of Drivers = 1 Fs = 27 Hz Qms = 11.72 Vas = 155.7 liters Cms = 0.41 mm/N Mms = 84.66 g Rms = 1.225 kg/s Xmax = 8 mm Xmech = 9.2 mm P-Dia = 256.5 mm Sd = 516.9 sq.cm P-Vd = 0.414 liters Qes = 0.35 Re = 5.7 ohms Le = 2.3 mH Z = 8 ohms BL = 15.29 Tm Pe = 275 watts Qts = 0.34 no = 0.844 % 1-W SPL = 91.47 dB 2.83-V SPL = 92.94 dB ----------------------------------------- Box Properties Name: Type: Vented Box w/ Active HP Filter Shape: Prism, square (optimum) Vb = 1.6 cu.ft Fb = 31 Hz QL = 6.676 F3 = 31.31 Hz Fill = minimal No. of Vents = 1 Vent shape = round Vent ends = one flush Dv = 3 in Lv = 9.886 in ----------------------------------------- Active 12 dB/oct. HP Filter Fx = 31 Hz Qx = 2 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use a 3" diameter elbow and add length to get a total of 9-7/8", mount on the back (make a new one if you like). Mustbe used with the filter for the 31hz performance, and should be on the floor, not a stand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antone Posted March 4, 2011 Author Share Posted March 4, 2011 DJK, Thanks for the suggestions. I'll buy some 0.75" MDF, make a new back, cut a 3" hole and install some pipe and give a listen. I have yet to hear a ported speaker with the tight, clean, smooth bass of acoustic suspension designs; I remember reading that Dunlavy did not believe in ported enclosures for that reason. I concede that some loud (if sloppy) bass can be had with a small enclosure via porting. I bet the tuning you recommend would help the lumpiness. Would an aperiodic vent work? Can you specify a brand and/or example of the active HP filter you mention? Can I use my 10-band graphic EQ for this purpose? Thanks, Antone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antone Posted March 4, 2011 Author Share Posted March 4, 2011 Stan man, Thanks for the support. I would rather not join Audiokarma. I have some problems with the name, so could you paste a copy of your post onto this forum? I would like to read it. Thank you Antone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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