Heresy upgrade with great imaging, smooth midrange and low-end SLAM!!

[djk]

" I bet the tuning you recommend would help the
lumpiness. "

Try it without the filter if you like a lean, tight sound. Don't play a record loudly without the filter, maybe at low volume. Record warp can kill vented speakers with a large amplifier.

Box Properties
Name:
Type: Vented Box
Shape: Prism, square (optimum)
Vb = 1.6 cu.ft
Fb = 31 Hz
QL = 6.676
F3 = 47.12 Hz
Fill = minimal
No. of Vents = 1
Vent shape = round
Vent ends = one flush
Dv = 3 in
Lv = 9.886 in

"Would an aperiodic vent work?"

Probably not, the Qtc of that woofer in that box is already low, below 0.707, a resistive vent would just make it roll off steeper.

Box Properties
Name:
Type: Closed Box
Shape: Prism, square (optimum)
Vb = 1.6 cu.ft
Qtc = 0.63
QL = 6.676
F3 = 62.38 Hz
Fill = minimal

"Can you specify a brand
and/or example of the active HP filter you mention? Can I use my
10-band graphic EQ for this purpose?"

Does your EQ have any type of low-cut filter on it?

Most PA equalizers, crossovers, and amplifiers have some sort of filter around 40hz. These filters can be easily changed (two resistors per channel) to be any frequency and Q we need.

(Green) with filter (blue) no filter (magenta) sealed, note the excursion with no filter,115dB/100W = 95dB/1W

[Stan man]

Hi,

I'm sorry to hear that Antone. And I haven't any idea how to cut and paste . Maybe a member here can. You don't have to join, just read it.

Thanks for the technicles djk

As in my post, take your rear panel to Home depot and they'll cut it for free. There's a sheet availabe there. 3/4 inch particle by about 48? I posted picture on my post. The 4 and 5/16 in. adjustable port from Part Express is working great for me.

Stan

[SilverSport]

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=349036

[Antone]

DJK,

Wonderful stuff ! Thank you much. My preamp has a very nice "subsonic" filter, -3dB @ 25 Hz, -6dB @15 Hz, and -12 dB @ 8.2 Hz. Is that steep enough? Also, Stan Man has told me to try a 4.3125" diameter port tube with length adjustable from 6.25" to 11.75"; would that diameter work at a different length, or is it just too big around? Your graphs do not show the lumpiness I was fearing from a ported box, so I will try this ASAP.

[Antone]

Stan Man,

Thanks for the info.! I intend to go to Lowe's after buying the port tubes and to have Lowe's cut the rectangles and holes in the new MDF sheet; I can't wait to try this!

By the way some helpful Klipsch Community members sent me the URL for the thread you mentioned, but Audiokarma would not let me open your attached file without registering.

To copy and to paste, first highlight in blue the desired text, and next push CONTROL C. Next, open Notepad on your desktop; "click" on the blinking cursor, and then push CONTROL V. Every word you had highlighted should appear on the Notepad page. Then copy in the same manner from Notepad to your Klipsch forum Reply page.

Happy Listening.

Antone

[Stan man]

Hi,

thanks. I'll give it a go when I get home. By the way, because of your enthusiastic review Antone, I ordered a toroidal 3.9 inductor. After mulling it over , I probably could have settled for the Erse super Q instead? What are your thoughts.

Stan

[Stan man]

Hi,

and by the way. Before you cut the port hole , you may want to consider doing it mirror imaged. Although my pair is consecutive serial#. The crossovers were mounted on oppsite sides . Since I opted for center of cabinet port . It obviously has to be to the left or right to clear the magnets and crossover. So mine are on opposite sides which tured out really cool. And allows more flexibility for speaker placement.

Stan

[djk]

" My preamp has a very nice
"subsonic" filter, -3dB @ 25 Hz, -6dB @15 Hz, and -12 dB @ 8.2 Hz. Is
that steep enough? "

It's only 6dB/oct, that's better than nothing. You could pull up 30hz a small amount on your 10-band graphic-EQ if you liked, maybe push 60hz down a bit if needed. Use your judgement on how it sounds. Many rooms will have enough 'room gain' in the 30hz region that the EQ may not be needed for the frequency response, but some sort of a filter is needed for vented systems using records.

"Also, Stan Man has told me to try a 4.3125" diameter
port tube with length adjustable from 6.25" to 11.75"; would that
diameter work at a different length, or is it just too big around?"

You must use a 3" dia port with an elbow. A 4" port would be too long to tune the box properly, and a 3" without an elbow will be too close to another surface. JBL uses a 3" port with an elbow in the L100/4311 models.

"Your
graphs do not show the lumpiness I was fearing from a ported box, so I
will try this ASAP."

It looks like it should sound good, although a bit on the lean side without the proper filter. All in all, I would rather have it a bit lean than have it muddy sounding.

[Antone]

Stan,

The difference between the Erse SuperQ coil and the Jantzen toroidal coil in resistance is still pretty big: 0.215 Ohm (Erse) versus 0.069 Ohm (toroidal). The resistance of the Klipsch stock 4mH coil is around 0.5 Ohm. The toroidal's resistance is around a seventh of the stock coil's and around a third of the Erse's. The resistance dictates how much voltage the woofer receives: the lower the resistance, the louder the woofer sounds. The Erse won't make much difference. It's basically the same construction as the stock inductor, but the toroidal is definitely louder. I chose it for that reason, because (then) I did not want to port my box. I needed all the bass I could get. I was hoping the louder coil would make up for the Dayton woofer's slightly lower sensitivity; it does!

When I received the 3.9 mH toroidal I measured its inductance with an LC meter (parts-express #390-570). My meter read it at 3.5(ish) mH,so I returned it and ordered the 4.7 mH, which measured just over 4.1 mH. This one is closer to the Klipsch stock coil's inductance, which my meter read as 3.94 mH. Also, this last value makes me believe that my LC meter is accurate and that the toroidal coil's rating may be higher than its actual inductance. If you are still using the Klipsch K22 woofer, then you may want to order the "4.7 mH" instead and to unwind enough wire to obtain a reading of 4 mH. If you can buy the LC meter, then you could fine tune the coil to measure exactly 4.0 mH by unwinding a turn or so of wire and hot-gluing it to prevent unravelling. If you are using the Dayton ST305-8 woofer, then unwind enough wire to yield 3.71 mH. Make sure that your Heresy's have the E2 balancing network. This is easily done by checking for a 33muF electrolytic capacitor attached to the two woofer output screws on the network; the E does NOT have this cap. The E2 does have one. Also the E2 has a faintly stamped numeral "2" next to the red printed "E".

If you have the E balancing network, you still can upgrade it to an E2 by: reversing the squawker wires where they connect to the network, adding a 33 muF capacitor at the woofer output screws, and replacing the E network's 2.5 mH coil with the "4.7 mH" (4.1 mH actual) toroidal coil I discussed earlier in this post. The parts' numbers are listed in my second post if you want to upgrade the caps, too. These vastly sweeten the mids and highs.

Happy Listening.

Antone

[BEC]

Has anyone ever calculated the amount of difference we should hear in db from the woofer with and without the DCR of the woofer inductor?

[Antone]

I tried the Dayton woofer with the "4mH" (3.95 mH actual)- 20-gauge wound, half-ohm DCR Klipsch low-pass coil unwound to read 3.8 mH (which, by the way, was the value of the other speaker's unaltered coil; this means that Klipsch thought that a discrepancy of 0.15 mH between L&R speakers was acceptable. It may be within 5%, but the bass differed audibly between L&R. I listened to my speakers with the new woofers and the original low-pass coils, and they didn't have quite enough bass, unless I added 3dB at 31 Hz. After installing the new toroidal inductors the bass was plenty with all controls set flat. Also I unwound the new coils to read exactly 3.71 mH each.That aside, it seems silly to strangle the power to the beefy Dayton woofer through a resistant coil of very thin wire.

Some Advents I repaired used 10-W, 1-Ohm resistors in line to the tweeter for adapting brightness to different rooms. Advent considered 1 Ohm to make a significant difference, so almost half an Ohm difference between the woofer inductors is not negligible. My new coils make the difference between having to add bass electronically and not needing to add it.

[folkdeath95]

Has anyone ever calculated the amount of difference we should hear in db from the woofer with and without the DCR of the woofer inductor?

I think the difference will be very, very small. When I was working on my Heresy, I measured the K22 with and without the crossover (I used a Behringer ECM8000 and the software used was Arta). IIRC, there was no visible differences between the two curves in the low end (before the inductor starts to act as a crossover). I haven't try to zoom on the two curves to see if there was any differences (but I could try when I'm back at home).

But, theoritically, given that the K22 is less efficient that the other drivers, any small fraction of dB won by diminishing the inductor DCR can be considered as a good thing.

[BEC]

Looks to me like (if I did the math right) that with the 0.5 ohm DCR of the factory inductor given above and the effective impedance of the Heresy woofer in the box of 11 ohms, we would see a loss of 0.35db in the inductor.

That is for a speaker that has it's frequency response stated as plus or minus 5db.

Bob

[ClaudeJ1]

I generally call the Heresy with the component group that you have the Heresy 1.5

I think that is a good, workable name for it. Jim Hunter designed the Heresy II (based on my visit to Hope in 1985, with he and PWK in the lab). It had a different woofer and tweeter than the Heresy 1 and the 1.5, which basically used a Klipsch built horn/driver combo instead of a K55, which was available only in the older Heresy 1. This was partially due to a falling out of a business relationship with Atlas, the maker of the K55V, but that is another story for another time.

[Antone]

In listening to my stuffed, acoustic suspension-enclosed upgraded Heresy 1.5's, I hear plenty of the bottom octave. Tracks 1 and 5 of the Master and Commander soundtrack have LOTS of loud concert bass drum. The initial attack is startling, and the long decay is warm and realistic. They extend far below 60 Hz and are tight and smooth in the bass. Parts-express has a great return policy; I would have returned their ST305-8 woofers and saved 200 dollars if they sounded as little-different as the skeptics' graphs show.

As I have written before, I am a professional orchestral musician, not an 'audiophile': I KNOW what a concert bass drum sounds like. To those who say that the Heresy's ought to be on the floor I emphasize: being on the floor creates a hump at around 60 Hz, and the floor bounce cancels out some mid-bass (300 Hz). They image better on 18" stands (no plinths), angled up slighly and aimed at a point 1 ft behind the listener's head. The whole bottom octave is smoother on stands. I know; I TRIED it both ways.

Family members, who wouldn't even understand my mods, unanimously prefer my modded Heresy's to stock. They used to prefer the bass of the Advent with its smaller woofer and smaller, stuffed, airtight enclosure to the unmodded Heresy's'. Some low-risk, worthwhile mods are: to stuff the boxes, to get them 1.5 ft off the floor, still deep in the corners, and to aim them as detailed above.

When I have an extra $80 I will probably still try your tuned port. But if I may "need to add some 31 Hz and to subtract some 60 Hz" in using this mod, then I won't be as well off as I am now. They have plenty of deep, satisfying bass without adding any electronically. Another concern is that exponential rise shown in your unfiltered excursion graph, yikes! I can fearlessly crank them now with the bass staying commensurate to the mids and highs.

Happy Listening.

Antone

[Stan man]

Antone,

thanks. If more and better bass( espcially at lower volume) is what I'd yield with this inductor, that is exactly what I'm looking for and welcome. It's arriving tommorrow.

By the way, have you damped the mid range horn body yet with Mortite putty or simlar? If not , do so ASAP. The plastic resonates like a bell ,I'm sure you notice.

Stan

[Antone]

Stan,

Intriguing, that about the mortite. . . In scratching and tapping the squawker horn with my fingernail I hear a bit of what you are talking about. The tweeter capacitor I specify helps with the treble in that range (1.8 muF polpropylene instead of 2 muF spam can) by rolling off the bottom of the tweeter output at a slightly higher frequency, so there is less overlap at the squawker/tweeter transition. Try it: parts-express #027-480. Also this will slightly increase the tweeter volume compared to the squawker. Relax; it will be sweeter, smoother, more crystalline treble. (A cheaper, but still very good tweeter cap is #027-264: $2.16 each.)

If for some reason (e.g. your ported box changes everything) you don't think the expensive toroidal inductor is worth the money, parts-express takes returns. Be careful installing it, in order to avoid any damage or big scratches, and don't alter it. This inductor makes a big difference with the Dayton woofer I specify (#295-120), so if you think the toroidal sounds any better than the stock woofer inductor and you think you may buy the Dayton woofers someday, keep the toroidals. You'll be glad you did.

Happy Listening.

Antone

[Antone]

I have edited my previous reply to your post, because I regret the last sentence; it's gone. One thing I find interesting is that you indicate that using a filter to block bass below 31 Hz will raise the output at 31 Hz and just above. Because of this, I will be using my subsonic filter when listening to records, in hope of getting more bass just above 31 Hz.

Thank you for your technical info. I value it.

Antone

[djk]

"One thing I find interesting is that you indicate that using a filter to block bass below 31 Hz will raise the output at 31 Hz and just above. Because of this, I will be using my subsonic filter when listening to records, in hope of getting more bass just above 31 Hz."

You need to know a bit more about filters.

Your filter is 6dB/oct and is 3dB down at the cut-off point.

A 12dB filter that is 6dB down at the cut-off point has a Q=0.5 and is also called a LinkwitzRiley when used in a crossover.

A 12dB filter that is 3dB down at the cut-off point has a Q=0.707 and is called a Butterworth.

A 12dB filter that is 0dB down at the cut-off point has a Q=1.0

A 12dB filter that has a Q=2 has 6dB of peaking before it cuts off, that's what makes this speaker flat to 31hz..

If you find the bass adequate in the sealed system, you should be happy with the bass in the simple vented system without EQ. As you can see it is even stronger, but you should use your 25hz filter with it when playing records.

With the Q=2 filter this type of alignment is called a B6, a maximally flat type. Without the filter it is an SBB4, and has the best transient response of any vented alignment. The response of your sealed system is a little less than 0.707, maximally flat Butterworth, but higher than 0.577, best transient response Bessel.

The Thiel 3.0 has the same type of Q=2 filter in a sealed system and it extends the bass in the 3.0 to 20hz.

B&W use this same Q=2 filter in their 800 series (800, 801, 802, etc).

Electro-Voice used it in their Sentry III studio monitors, Interface A, Interface D, etc.

[Stan man]

Hi,

Antone, I've been using the Dayton woofers. I also have a photo of the two woofers for comparison on AK. This is one of the similarities that I said was so eery. I've got mine on 16 inch sand filled stands. Slightly tilted up- about 2 feet from rear wall. Away from side walls in a good sized great room. I'll post my impressions of the new inductors tommorrow .

Stan