Stan man Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Hi, Antone, I forgot to mention, at the moment, I'm using a 7 ohm resistor for the mid and a 2ohm for the tweeter with the Theta Audio caps. That's in my thread as well. Stan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antone Posted March 8, 2011 Author Share Posted March 8, 2011 DJK, "You need to know a bit more about filters." I do not know anything about filters ( what's "Q"?). Thanks for the education; I sure respect Bowers and Wilkins (especially the 801), and I have read some glowing reviews of Thiel speakers. The approach I took on my Heresy's was more rudimentary: I think of the crossover as three hard-wired, dedicated equalizer fragments: one low pass(woofer), one mid-pass(squawker), and one high-pass (tweeter). I had no intention of altering Klipsch's E2 network's architecture; but it was time to replace the old capacitors, anyway, so I upgraded them as much as I could afford-polypropylenes do sound better (cleaner, smoother, louder and more solid) and should last forever. 1.8 muF tweeter caps (instead of the stock 2 muF) cleaned up the hump at the squawker/tweeter transition (less 'honking' on female voices, smoother sibilants). I also took this opportunity to match capacitances and inductances well within 1% L to R to solidify imaging. The Klipsch 12" woofer never seemed to keep up with the two horns, so I thought I would try the most sensitive, lowest-responding 8-Ohm woofer I could find/afford. (My old K22E's are in perfect order, safely ensconced in boxes.) The specs looked promising on the Dayton #295-120, so I tried it. The magnet is at least twice as big as the Klipsch woofer's, and the Dayton's spider is bigger. Just by listening to the sound as I connected a 9V battery to the naked drivers' respective terminals I could tell that the new woofer's output was overall lower in frequency and there was less mid-bass than the K22E's. Listening to the new woofers installed, I could tell that they went lower, could handle more power than my amp would ever give them, and lacked some midbass. That's why I tried lowering the inductance of the woofer low-pass coil. That fixed the lack in the mid bass and low mids, but I still needed a bit more overall output, so I tried the least resistant inductor I could find/almost afford. This brought up the woofer output enough to satisfy everyone who has auditioned them post-modification They have awesome bottom octave when it's present in the music, but they never sound bass-heavy on mids (e.g. excess chestiness on male voices). The boxes just should have been stuffed at the factory; I can't think of a good reason why not. They were always mostly airtight, and I simply improved the seal of the back board. All in all, a very empirical approach (trial & error), but I am satisfied with the results. They still sound like Heresy's, but with better imaging, smoother midrange and low-end SLAM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan man Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Hi, so I received and insalled the 14 g. inductors. I'm sorry to report that I don't share the same enthusiasm as Antones on these. I'm not yielding any more bass output at all. In fact , less. Output is not increased and bass actually sounds leaner. I wanted to like these expensive inductors, but they just don't do it for me. Maybe it's just the combination with my port. After all, this hobby is pretty much about compromises isn't it. Stan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antone Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 Stan, Sorry to read that. They made a significant difference in my set-up. Return them undamaged for your refund; I returned the "3.9" toroidals because they were really 3.5 mH and got a full refund. This I applied to the "4.7", which were actually 4.1 mH. I unwound these to 3.71 mH and used 12 gauge wire from the woofer and from the back terminals to the network; are you still using the stock 16/18 gauge leads? Another suggestion: DJK told me (and I believe him) to use 3" diameter port and tubes of length 9.883" including one elbow for proper Heresy venting. I remember that your port was 4" in diameter, which he said was too big around. Are your Dayton woofers the Series Two or the Classic style? Mine are part # 295-120, the Series Two, in unported boxes. In a way I'm glad you don't prefer the toruses, because you'll save over $100! Sorry. Antone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antone Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 Stan, You are using resistors to bring down the squawker and tweeter volume, eh? Looking at the E2 schematic, I believe that you could bring down the squawker volume 3 dB without using a resistor; simply move the lead which connects the squawker 'plus' output screw to the #2 T2A transformer tap from #2 to #1. This would now connect the squawker 'plus' to the #1 tap on the T2A and yield 12 dB down instead of 9 dB. Happy Listening Antone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 very long thread. so lets review. Hersey's have a frequency response that begins at 50hz. We discovered that the Heresy does not have good representation at 30hz. Cornwalls barely have a good representation at 30hz. My personal experience is that HIP/E's with the slot, have better bass than sealed Hersey's, and the slant monitor slotted Hersey's have an even better still bass response. Maybe the solution is to go isobaric and put another woofer face to face with the old one and wire it inversely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
folkdeath95 Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Hi, so I received and insalled the 14 g. inductors. I'm sorry to report that I don't share the same enthusiasm as Antones on these. I'm not yielding any more bass output at all. In fact , less. Output is not increased and bass actually sounds leaner. I wanted to like these expensive inductors, but they just don't do it for me. Maybe it's just the combination with my port. After all, this hobby is pretty much about compromises isn't it. Stan Your experience seems to prove one thing: theory is one thing, pratice is another. Inductor's sound is not just a matter of DCR. Air core inductors are onften prefered even if they have higher DCR. Crossover design is an hard thing and requires lots of tests that can somtimes be disappointing. Let's hope you can have a refound and continue your work on your Heresy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 To get more slam out of the Heresy, sit approx 22 feet from them and place them into the corners toe'd in. The 22ft represents the length of a 50hz sound wave. The intersect point at 22 ft would be your slam point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antone Posted March 11, 2011 Author Share Posted March 11, 2011 Stan, Another explanation for less bass with the "3.9 mH" toroidal is that your Heresy's may have E networks not E2. The E network's woofer inductor's value is 2.5 mH; the E2's is 4 mH. Your "3.9" mH will yield less output and leaner bass than the stock E's 2.5 mH. Are you sure that you have an E2? If you do, then you should see a Union Carbide 33 muF, 100V electrolytic cap attached to the woofer output screws on the network barrier strip. If there is NO 33 muF cap, then you have an E network. You can change an E to an E2 by adding that 33 muF cap (parts-express #027-350 @ 82 cents), reversing the squawker leads so its minus lead connects to the "0" tap of the T2A "transformer", and keeping that 3.9 mH toroidal inductor in-line to the woofer plus barrier strip screw. Happy Listening. Antone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antone Posted March 11, 2011 Author Share Posted March 11, 2011 Speakerfritz, I do not know what a "thread buster" is. This is the first and only forum I've joined. In answering questions/objections from various users I just reply to their posts directly. I am not trying to trick or to deceive anyone for jollies. This is an interesting forum addressing a topic important and fascinating to me. I have learned valuable info. from this community, and I wish only to share my experience and insights. I find it interesting that some Klipsch fans are going back and forth about measurements, because we all own these speakers in spite of their specifications (50-17k Hz, +/- 5 dB is nothing to write home about.), and because we loved their sound when we heard them. With my mods I hear the improvements I have described. If few believe me, I will thrill to my Heresy's' new, improved sound nonetheless. My Klipsches no longer lack deep bass, and my new caps will never wear out, unlike the stock electrolytics. So for decades to come I will enjoy-- Happy Listening. Antone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 There are a lot of challenges in this area. One is the impedance spike of the k-22 while in the cabinet. The impedance spike is over 30 ohms at 80hz. The popular inexpensive way to compensate is with zobel circuts. But all that does is correct the apparent load to the amp. There is a lot of loss at the tune point. Which does not result in any acoustical gain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Antone, The only electrolytic cap you would have found in the E-2 crossovers is the 33uF. Bob Crites Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan man Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Hi, Antone my crossover is the E2. I was away for a couple of days and with a more objective listen, they're today sounding OK. I'll let them " cook " a lttle longer. Folkdeath, There's still other avenues to explore and I just can't leave well enough alone. Stan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan man Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Hi, OK. Enough cooking. I switched back to stock inductor. No doubt about it , no comparison, stock is much better for my aplication. Stock has more output,is grippyer, more weight and just plain more fun. Go figure. Stan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antone Posted March 13, 2011 Author Share Posted March 13, 2011 Mr. Crites, your reputation precedes you: Thank you for correcting me in regard to the classification of the 2muF, spam-can-shaped, motor-run-style Aerovox capacitors. I accidently lumped them in with the 33muF, 100V, bipolar as all being electrolytics. The printed caution on the 2 muF caps about dangerous inflammability led me to believe that there is inflammable goo inside the spam can that acts as an electrolyte; that would have rendered the Aerovoxes electrolytics. Perhaps you have a recommendation for a replacement tweeter driver/horn combination that reproduces treble all the way up to 20kHz. Also I would like to know if there is a replacement coil/diaphragm available for the squawker compression driver for an eventual failure due to age. Sincerely, Antone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antone Posted March 13, 2011 Author Share Posted March 13, 2011 Sorry it didn't seem to help. Many seem to believe that the enclosure size/porting and filter alignment are the only variables affecting bass response. If that were truly the case then my smaller, stuffed Advent boxes with their smaller woofers and first-order crossovers wouldn't reproduce as much or as deep bass as my Heresy's did with their larger boxes and stock 12" drivers. No one has explained why the Advents kicked the Heresy's butt in the bass-both in profundity and volume (absolute, not just in comparison to their less-sensitive tweeters), before I stuffed the Heresy enclosures and switched out the woofers. Without porting, the Heresy's still belong deep in the corners. Maybe it's my room size/shape that is making the bass difference so audible. When comparing did you leave one speaker alone and install the toroidal in the other so as to hear a diiference between L&R? In my listening room, because of where my system shelf unit is in relation to the short walls the left speaker has louder bass than the right due to a standing wave. Whichever speaker I placed on the left had more bass, so I compared the altered speaker to the unaltered speaker in the same location. Otherwise the speaker on the right always had less bass than the left and could invalidate the comparison. Before you give up, compare the toroidal-bearing speaker to the stock speaker in the same position L or R. Stan, if you can, would you post your photo comparing the K22E to the Dayton ST-305? ( I'll bet you said,"Oh Yeah!" when you opened up that parts-express box!) It's like getting a new HEMI crate engine from Chrysler to put in your Dodge Dart. I believe that the Dayton's much bigger/more powerful motor has more strength to overcome box-induced impedances. Happy Listening. Antone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan man Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Hi', Antone, I don't know how to post a picture here. But anyone who's signed onto AK , I'm sure has already seen my photo of the two woofers side by side.Yeah it's a real no brainer even visually , what the superiority of this driver can acheive. Stan ps. Port your speaker! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antone Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 Stan, These gas prices are eating my extra cash, but I still intend trying the tuned porting when I can. It seems that you are able to place your Heresy's away from the walls and still hear enough bass. Airtight, mine sound great in the corners, but I wouldn't mind a bit more bass if it's as clean and smooth as I hear without porting. Antone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan man Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Hey Antone, agreed as to gas prices. I drive an Explorer and work 60 miles away . You're enjoying improved bass in your Heresys is a profound improvement to say the least when it comes to the Heresys. My Heresys are pretty damned smooth in bass dept.especially in the issue of "no bass" to even speak of for these in stock form. I swear by mine and am just miffed at how so few of us has, besides you, apparently , has even attemted to" really" deal with the Heresys obvious and unacceptble shortcomings as a viable HI-Fi speaker system. Stan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Quote No one has explained why the Advents kicked the Heresy's butt in the bass-both in profundity and volume (absolute, not just in comparison to their less-sensitive tweeters), before I stuffed the Heresy enclosures and switched out the woofers. Without porting, the Heresy's still belong deep in the corners. Antone, I believe that your question can be answered, but to answer it will require discussion of "...what is it that we're trying to achieve?...". Advents are not noted for their low distortion (sorry). They sound like the proverbial "box speaker" to my ears. If that sound is what you like, then that was a very good speaker. However, my ears have grown tired of that sound. I have been a fan of both acoustic suspension and horn-loaded speakers. I cannot now say that I now like any acoustic suspension speaker, except maybe those designs whose bass radiator area is so large as to approach the same radiating area as a Khorn bass bin at the exit "mouths" of the wall-speaker intersection. Even then, the effect of such a large bass driver radiator area is to minimize the movement of the direct radiator drivers in order to minimize FM distortion. This is the antithesis of acoustic suspension design. Over time PWK created the much larger Cornwall bass-reflex design (~1959) to replace the Heresy between two Khorns, but then he created the La Scala horn-loaded bass design (~1963) which is a very deep center speaker design) and later the Belle (early 1970s), which I believe was the solution to his problem. PWK later said that he did not recommend either the Cornwall or the Heresy for center-channel duty - rather he recommended the Belle or La Scala. Why? Because the bass distortion of that one center channel speaker overwhelms the sound of two clean Khorn bass bins in their corners. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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