boa12 Posted April 15, 2002 Share Posted April 15, 2002 m-man, it seems they imply the test tones are generating at 75db but guess they must be using some rather more inefficient than klipsch caus w/ all levels flat i get around 87db at the sweet spot up to -5db from that depending on the speaker (ie C7). don't know much on how they really do these. will check tomorrow though. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marathon Man Posted April 15, 2002 Share Posted April 15, 2002 boa12, Thats funny because I noticed the same thing, but Im at about 82 db with rc-7. Thats why I was wondering if it was exactlly 75 db or not. Sometimes I forget just how efficient these Klipsch speakers really are. Well thats one question answered, but for the low freq generater Im thinking it must be tied to the volume of the pre/pro in one way or another either the sub level itself or main volume. ------------------ MM This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-15-2002 at 06:47 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted April 15, 2002 Share Posted April 15, 2002 well let's see if my velo is doing 112db at 52hz with the -30db setting, maybe they're working it the other way. iow, 112-30=82db which is just about around the reference level. don't know at all. hopefully they do. i'll get the skinny. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marathon Man Posted April 15, 2002 Share Posted April 15, 2002 One thing you can try is to measure the spl at -30, then change the sub volume in the setup under speaker levels, then measure the spl again at -30. If you see a differnce in spl then my theory is right. If not then they should be able to shed more light on the subject. ------------------ MM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin S Posted April 15, 2002 Share Posted April 15, 2002 Boa & MM, I am afraid I am completely lost on the B&K test tone thing. MM, just to be clear, I am not trying to bash the RSW-15. There may be a way of setting it up where it performs exactly as Klipsch specifies, and apparently you have. But for these test results to be so far off from the published specs certainly deserves comment. I agree that arguing over whether one sub that does 20hz at 115 db is better than one that does it at 110 db is fruitless if you do not listen that loud anyway. But it is not fruitless to be concerned when a sub is specified to be -3db at 19hz and a published test by an independent third party shows it to be down almost 3db at 48hz and 17db down at 20hz. And this is the second independent test where the RSW-15 fell substantially short of it's specified performance. Hometheaterhifi.com published a test back in December where 20 hz was about 18db below it's peak output. In fact the tester said " This sub could use a good kick in the 20-30hz range." If there is a special way this sub has to be set up to meet it's spec's, the people that test them, and Klipsch's potential customers should be clued in. For now, I still want to know why it falls so short of it's specs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marathon Man Posted April 15, 2002 Share Posted April 15, 2002 Kevin, I don't argue that point. I think that when you are looking at specs only that would be a very good argument not to look in the direction of the sub, but for me when I heard the sub I fell in love with it. I did some testing myself with the sub, not to the extent of the independent third parties you mention (which I have read by the way), and my tests also show that yes the sub falls off pretty sharp below 25 hz, but not 18 or 19 db! Now granted I have spent a lot of money on room improvements and I don't think you can get any closer to acoustic perfection (at least for the money I spent you better not be able to) than my room. Im sure that has something to do with it, but even in the store prior to my purchase I thought the sub just sounded good and clean, and had plenty of bass for my taste. personally I prefer clean accurate sound vs loud any day of the week and sometimes Sundays. The sub is expensive and I guess when you make a purchase if the stats and the reviews are what drives you to make a decision then I guess most won't purchase the RSW, but in all fairness I think it deserves a listen, and in my theather its the sub of choice , and coupled with the RSW-12 its a winning combo. ------------------ MM This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-15-2002 at 08:15 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marathon Man Posted April 15, 2002 Share Posted April 15, 2002 Kevin, BTW, Boa12, and I were wondering about the low freq tone generater on the B&K that is used to setup the notch filter. There are like 3 different volume references, eg., -30, -45, and -55, Im not sure of the exact volumes. Anyway we were wondering are these volume levels relative to the flat setting on the main volume knob (mid way) or the flat setting on the sub level volume or exactlly what are these levels referenced from. Im thinking the flat position on the main volume. ------------------ MM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted April 15, 2002 Share Posted April 15, 2002 Guys, don't confuse the TN freq-response data and the maximum output data. They are both important,but not synonymous. A sub could have a FR in his review perfectly flat from 20-120hz and still have a 20dB drop off(at 20hz compared to say 40hz) in his max output tests. In this case, the FR dropped off pretty high(upper 40s) but it is a huge room. So you can expect a little better extension in a smaller room. 112dB(max clean output at 2m) averaged from 25-63hz ain't too shabby TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted April 15, 2002 Share Posted April 15, 2002 my bet's on max output of the ref 30 m-man. can't fathom that my hgs will put out 52hz/112db at the sweet spot at the -30db below their reference level. that's probably the spot though where it should do 123db, but that's at 1M & probably not in my room. TV, can you explain how this sine wave generator is working? what do they mean by -42, -30db, etc.? ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marathon Man Posted April 15, 2002 Share Posted April 15, 2002 TV, You are dead on. this is why the standard unit of measuring sensitivity is 1 watt at 1 meter because it takes the room out of the equation for one, and standardizes the test. The one test that kevin spoke of the guy was in a large room with the mic 13 or 14 feet away from the sub. I think that is a more realistic test because who sits 3 feet away from their sub, but the only problem is that now you bring the room into the equation. I guess we can debate this all day. In my room I could not imagine having more bass than with the RSW. The RSW shakes your clothing along with everything else in my application. The S&V article is pretty good I thought. They measured the sub in a huge room for one 7,500 cubic feet. The sub still did well and I quote "One of the best measuring subwoofers we have seen" and "The RSW-15 had prodigious low frequency output" this aint too bad IMO. As for klipsch's rating the sub. They measured its output at 121 db @ 30 Hz @ 1 meter. maybe I have not read the article that Kevin is referencing that gives him the idea that Klipsch is 18 db off from their rating. Oh well. Trust me folks its a hell of a sub. ------------------ MM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin S Posted April 15, 2002 Share Posted April 15, 2002 Tvodhanel, I understand your point about maximum output and frequency response data. And I agree that the maximum output capabilities in a certain bandwidth are impressive. And you are certainly far more qualified than me to interpert the data. However, if Klipsch's bandwidth and frequency response spec is only valid up to a certain level, if that level is far below the maximum output capabilities and if that is the explanation for the sub not measuring up to spec in these tests, then someone should tell us that. Lets be honest, someone buying a sub that is supposed to be 3db down at 19hz isn't expecting that to only apply up to, lets say for the sake of this discussion, a more "moderate" level. If I remember TN's testing explanation correctly, he states that in smaller rooms, any sub he measures could achieve 3 db more in level and 3 db more in extension. In either case, this sub still would fall far short of spec. Also,I have seen other subs that Tom has measured where the 25hz to 63hz average seems impressive at first, but the average is skewed by much greater output above say 35 to 40hz, and pretty mediocre output below. I think that is the case with his measurements of this sub. Keep in mind that the RF-7's in the test also fell well short of meeting their bandwidth/frequency response specs. So this problem/anomalie did not just lie with the sub. With all of that said, none of us has yet to actually explain the differences between the independent measurements and the spec's. And I am perfectly willing to accept a logical explanation that can pin the problem on the testing method. I have no axe to grind against these speakers. I think I have given myself a brain cramp! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin S Posted April 15, 2002 Share Posted April 15, 2002 MM, With the maximum output capabilities that the RSW has, even as measured in the independent tests, I am sure that the sub can "shake your clothing". But, not to put too fine a point on it, -3db at 48hz is a long way from -3db at 19hz. When I bought my HSU's, they were rated -3db at 25hz. Every independent test I've seen, and my own experience shows that they easily can achieve this. The tests include tests done by the same fellow that tested the Klipsch, in the same room, under the same conditions, I believe. My point is not that my HSU's are better than the Klipsch. Or that the Klipsch is a "bad" sub. I just want to know why the Klipsch do not meet their specs when tested independently under conditions where other brands do meet theirs. A fair question I think, and not made to anger or insult anyone. ------------------ L/C/R: Klipsch Heresy II Surround: Klipsch RS-3 Subwoofers: 2 HSU-VTF-2 Pre/Pro/Tuner: McIntosh MX-132 AMP: McIntosh MC-7205 DVD: McIntosh MVP-831 CD Transport: Bang & Olufsen Beosound 9000 Turntable: Denon DP-72L Cassette: Nakamichi BX-1 T.V. : Mitsubishi 55905 SAT/HDTV: RCA DTC-100 Surge Protector: Monster Power HTS-5000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marathon Man Posted April 15, 2002 Share Posted April 15, 2002 Kevin, LOL on the brain cramp. Well made points, and yes a fair question which by the way does not anger or insult me. Maybe one of the Klipsch folks can speak to your questions. I think we would all like to hear what they have to say about how the sub was measured and the environment it was setup in when doing so. I could have and still can buy any sub on the market, but I choose the RSW. My point was the specs alone did not soley influence my decision when I made the purchase. My point about bashing the RSW is directed at those who have not even heard the sub, and are going on hear say as to how the sub performs. To be frank I think that most people simply try to correct room anomalies by throwing equipment at the problem and find themselves continuously chaseing bigger and louder gear to try and correct that problem. The RSW may not be the sub for you if you have a bass challenged room, where some other subs like the SVS that does not drop off very much below 30 Hz will give you the bass that you are looking for. In my room you can almost hear a heart beat, and with the B&K's notch filter feature I can tame those pronounced 60-80 Hz freqs that allow me to smooth the sub out and drive the sub to get the spl I want in the low low ranges. As I said this sub will not be for everyone, but for me it works very well regardless of the specs, and independent tests. I don't disagree with your points. I only disagree with people not thinking about giving the sub a listen soley based on hear say. Go and listen to the sub and judge for yourself. I would like for the Klipsch reps to respond to your points and answer your question as that may put to bed some miss-understanding about the product. Klipsch.... ------------------ MM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youngklip Posted April 15, 2002 Share Posted April 15, 2002 You can't win both ways. But I Klipsch had a reason why its sub drops off sharp at 30hz. I think they they wanted it to play load in upper frequency's. ------------------ Bose Suck..Period Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted April 16, 2002 Share Posted April 16, 2002 m-man, just talked w/ jerry at b&k tech support. on the level on that low frequency sine wave generator on the ref 30, just a made-up by them for some flexibility w/ different sub efficiencies. no relation to the 0 on the volume dial or full output of the preamp. also no relation to the test tone generator. on the test tone generator, sorta the same. just a reference level for the speakers they used. so yes we do have some rather more efficient speakers. so at the volume 0, those they used for modeling would only do 75db. now couldn't imagine having a 75db reference level myself. also, he said the sub output test tone is at 30hz. might explain why my curve is sloping up around there. probably need to drop my sub output a few db. & still nothing official on the upgrade. did say they are kinda holding off for the possible new dvd-audio format, but they are anxious to get the dolby PLII & dts es in there. ------------------ My Home Systems Page This message has been edited by boa12 on 04-16-2002 at 10:22 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marathon Man Posted April 16, 2002 Share Posted April 16, 2002 Boa12, Thats good news on the upgrades. I did not know they were going to do the dts-es. I have not heard much about a new dvd-audio format?? I purchased a dvd audio player a while back but returned it because of the bass management or lack of there of as well as just not enough software. I listen to dts music mostly for true 5.1 surround. RE: the low ferquency generate, I am pretty supprised that the volume is not a reference to something in the pre-amps output levels.. Oh well it works none the less as long as I can manage the ferquency I want between 120 and 20 Hz. By the way. I did get the B&K setup disk, but I have not got the cable yet. Im hopeing that it will allow me to save the setup on my laptop as a backup to the eeprom. ------------------ MM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted April 16, 2002 Share Posted April 16, 2002 MM, yea everybody's looking for a universal dvd-audio/sacd digital connection but still no luck getting them to agree. obviously would be great caus of the bass management/using the analog direct inputs issues. then we just do it w/ our pre/pro as usual. possibility they may go w/ a firewire standard & use that empty ieee port on our ref 30. but they'd have to then do a hardware upgrade to that 1st. who knows what they'll decide. up to the record cos & their copyright issues. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted April 16, 2002 Share Posted April 16, 2002 oh & m-man good luck w/ the set-up disk. as you know we don't need any upgrades to do 6.1/7.1 for dts & dts matrix. the upgrade would be for dts es 6.1 discrete. hopefully more of that material coming. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marathon Man Posted April 16, 2002 Share Posted April 16, 2002 For sure on the dts 6.1 descrete. I was aware of the 6.1 matrix <source + 6>. I actually use two rear speakers as a rear center. Its a rather strange setup but I like it. I use two of the klipsch rs-3's. I say its kinda strange because of the defused sound from the dipoles. I use stadium seating of three rows in my theater and if you are sitting in the last row you will be rather close to the rear centers, and the defused sound allows you to be rather close to the speaker without it being to pronounced, otherwise you loose the effect. ------------------ MM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted April 16, 2002 Share Posted April 16, 2002 yea m-man, that's it 6 even w/ 7 speakers. i'm getting dolby ex on a lot of the cable tv movies now. i'm a firm believer of a direct speak or 2 for rear centers for those reasons, & especially when 6.1 discrete arrives. it's been debated ad nauseum on here though. well, more on the type to use for surrounds actually anyway. i'm happy. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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