MichaelHans Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I have a Pair of Epic CF-3 Version 2's I'm Running on a Pioneer Elite VSX-49TX with AudioQuest Type 4 Speaker Cable. I like the Warmth of these speakers and there Imaging but they sound rather muddy to me in the mids. I have heard that Passively Biamping these to level out the horn helps to balance these speakers dose anyone have any experience with this? I'm just not sure if it is the speaker or the setup. I was Original going to buy a pair of KLF20s or KLF30s, but found the CF-3s for a deal so I am trying them out. I do have a surround sound set but music comes first for me. Any one with opinions? Also I am not too happy with this Pioneer it doesn't seem very musically to me, I expected more form a receiver that cost $4500 new. Would a different setup help? I'm just not sure if there was something I was doing Wrong or if the Crossovers might need replacing, or the setup is poor, or a level adjusted in Biamping is needed (which I have read about for the Epics). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I passive bi-amped my RF-7's and now with my KLF-30's. It's the only way I can listen to these speakers and I love 'em. [Y] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I do have a surround sound set but music comes first for me. If music comes first then you may want to ditch the AVR and go with a seperate preamp--power amp combo like many of us do here.......or if your Pioneer has preouts use it as a preamp and hook up a power amp to it. As far as the passive bi-amping thing.....since I put a tube amp on my mid-tweets and a powerful amp on the woofers it has been the most satisfying system I've had to date since I got into this mess about six years ago. The funny thing is......in the past it was very common for me to listen to entire cd's---dvd's at 115+ db's. Now, the majority of the time I listen at 75-85db. [] Occasionally I'll let it rip up to 110db but it's just not needed like before. I get all the fidelity, headroom and dynamics at low to medium volumes now. Beats the $hit outta me.......but I like it. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelHans Posted February 19, 2011 Author Share Posted February 19, 2011 Thanks you the input I will get a Separate amp for my Pioneer, use the Pre-amp outs and try the passive bi-amping. I have been thinking about ditching my ARV already for a real set up anyways. It is a nice a AVR though 130 Watts X 7 Channels with opinional active Bi-amping if wanted, and a whopping 80 pounds. It was for sure the flagship when it came out. Rocks Surround Sound very well but leave things to be desisred for music. Would you recommend Carver, Parasound, or Rotel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 I think you are good with what you have, maybe not as good as separates but you have the right cable for good mid-range and your speakers and receiver should be decent enough, if the receiver is set-up correctly. So that leaves the source. What is your source and cable hook-up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelHans Posted February 19, 2011 Author Share Posted February 19, 2011 I'm running Audio Quest Type 4 Speaker cable, just cheap optical cable for anything digital and an old pair of Kimber cables for the AV on the CD I am using which is an old Denon DCD-156. I notice a big difference between using the AV cables and setting the Receiver to Direct in stereo mode instead of letting the receiver process the music through analog or optical. I would assume the DAs in the CD player are better than in the receiver. I have no bones about ditching this Pioneer and going with something different for a proper setup. Any recommendation in used amps and pre-amps in a $900-1400 range . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Ah, that's it, the Denon CDs are pretty flat sounding, and a Kimber cable, not a silver one perhaps? A solid amp is a good thing but there is some hope with what you have now. I'd ditch the Denon CD and put a Kimber PBJ on the replacement CD player. A low buck name brand CD player would be fine (Marantz). A tube pre would also work, maybe a used C-J PV-10al? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelHans Posted February 19, 2011 Author Share Posted February 19, 2011 I will give the Marantz a try and see if things sound a little better, my kimber cables are Tonik. Not sure if a PBJ is lesser or more. I have read from other Epic cf-3/cf-4 owners that the Passive bi-amping is nessary due to change made in the version 2, all I know is that my CF-1s I use for rears sound great even when hooked up as fronts. I admit it all sounds a little flat, dose it matter when using an optical cable with your CD player?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale A B Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I've found thru trial and error that my CF 4's require special care with amplification. Currently using a 22 yr old HK 880 vxi, and had very good sound with a Halfer DH-110 & XL-280 in the past. They did not sound good with any type of a home theater receiver, while my KG 5.2's sound good with my Yamaha RX-V659 HTR. To check symmetry with various speakers and amps, I use the same demo disc, which features various tones of piano. If it does not sound like a real piano, or close to it, I change something out. NP - Gamma Ray - The Karaoke Album (1997) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Don't know anything about Epic's but this may, or may not, be useful. http://community.klipsch.com/forums/p/102379/1277958.aspx If your cd player is say 10 years old or so, that could surely be a problem. If you have a newer dvd player just give that a try. DAC's are almost always better today that in yesteryear. Don't worry about cables. Hell I'd strip them out an use the cheapest stuff you have handy for cable and speaker wire. You could be having your sound adversely affected by all that overpriced, over hyped, cable nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennie Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 The CF-3's were built between 1994 and '96. Update the capacitors/crossovers and that should clear/clean up the midrange (and bass and treble). Here is a Link to Bob Crites site ------> CLICK HERE Opens in a new window I replaced the crossovers on my 1979 La Scalas and everything just cleared up. It was like a blanket was laid over the speakers before, now...Crystal Clear! Dennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelHans Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 Thanks everyone, For Music I have been using Pink Floyd The Wall as reference for music and Scott Pilgrim VS the World as Movie reference. I might just want to have a listen to some KLFs and see if I like them. I have a Denon 2900, I played some music off that and the CD actully sounds a little better to me at least. Everything sounds great off my Blurays played through my PS3, I'm really shocked how good games sound. I played Siren and the rain sounds real. I talked to Bob about getting to the crossovers redone but it was $250 dollars to get them done, he explained that the Crossovers in the Epics are more complex that in most Klipsch speakers. I would be more than happy to pay the other $100-150 prices I saw on his website but $250 is about what I paid for the speakers. How dose a Crossover go bad?????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelHans Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 Are the KLFs a little easier to deal with than the Epics? I havn't heard them in person just heard them just seen people really liike them. I'm open for getting to speakers but if the Epics are better with a little more work I will keep at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davecv41 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 How dose a Crossover go bad?????? The capacitors dry out from age, so they affect how the speaker sounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Dennie's been smiling too much lately, because he's wrong about your crossovers. IMO it takes a good while longer for the types of caps Klipsch generally uses to go bad. I'd be very surprised if 15 year old caps are your problem so look elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennie Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Dennie's been smiling too much lately, because he's wrong about your crossovers. IMO it takes a good while longer for the types of caps Klipsch generally uses to go bad. I'd be very surprised if 15 year old caps are your problem so look elsewhere. You're right Marty, ever since the "Astronaut A Go-Go" Party, I can't get this grin off my face! Also, you Sir have more experience with those (or probably any) speakers than I do and I will refer to you on this one. I was just sharing my experience and the difference I heard. As noted, my La Scalas were 30 years old at the time. Dennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelHans Posted February 25, 2011 Author Share Posted February 25, 2011 Thanks for the input, for electronics point of view I was a little off that 15 year caps would go bad. I know electrical fairly well (I rewired 1/2 of my apartment). I'm gonna try a new setup, I am not the biggest Pioneer fan to begin with and even though this is a flagship Elite. I was looking at Parasound dose anyone have any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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