Deang Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Anyone feel like commenting on those ugly numbers for the RF7 in Sound and Vision Magazine? Details are in post below titled "No Highs, No Lows, Must Be RF7's?! ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>c>Super Ampf>s>c> Sonic Frontiers Line 1 Sony DVP-S9000ES Klipsch RF7f>s>c>'s SVS 20-39PCf>s>c>ic> MIT/Monsters Toshiba 36"f>s>c> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 04-18-2002 at 02:40 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 It seems to me that Klipsch knows they sound excellent and their own numbers are good. The reviewer thinks they sound excellent, or nearly so, and the review's numbers are almost good. What would be the point in arguing numbers when both agree they sound excellent, or nearly so? Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted April 18, 2002 Share Posted April 18, 2002 deang, How long have you had your Sony DVP and how do you like it? I am thinking of getting the same one...when I have the big $$$! This message has been edited by edster00 on 04-18-2002 at 07:30 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 18, 2002 Author Share Posted April 18, 2002 Will -- you have a point. I just wish I could figure out what S&V did to get 76hz to 14.4khz +/- 4.5db? Ed -- I won't have it until tomorrow. I picked it up a J&R Music World for $929.99 shipped. I had sold the Anthem CD-1 and my Gibson guitar and ended up having a little free money after taxes. At any rate, I'm apprehensive about the 9000's Redbook playbook as some of Asylum members consider it mediocre at best. Opinions are divided so we'll see. I really wanted to give SACD a whirl and didn't want a carousel. I also have no interest in multichannel -- so, choices are very limited. It's the 9000es for less than $1K -- or much, much, more money. I also sold my LF-10 and just ordered a SVS 20-39 PCi. I'm a little nervous about that one too. I hope the bass is reasonably tight -- or she's going back. You can bet I'll be reporting for better or worse in the coming weeks. Incidently -- the consensus with the 9000es is that it takes over 300 hours of burn in before the analog section sounds it best. Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>c>Super Ampf>s>c> Sonic Frontiers Line 1 Sony DVP-S9000ES Klipsch RF7f>s>c>'s SVS 20-39PCf>s>c>ic> MIT/Monsters Toshiba 36"f>s>c> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 04-18-2002 at 02:43 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jethro Bodean Posted April 23, 2002 Share Posted April 23, 2002 Hello Klipsch. Is anybody there??? Jethro.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BobG Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 deang - I stayed out of that thread because I saw little benefit in commenting. The text of the review was incredibly positive but people chose to ignore that and focus instead on the measured specs. I have no idea how the tests were done, but I feel the proof is in the listening. I find it interesting that the other speaker reviewed in the same issue showed a lower limit around 200 Hz. Suggests an interesting method of running the specs. For those who want to fixate on specs there is nothing I can say that will dent their opinion. The measured performance was the measured performance and numbers are somehow comforting to many people. Little point in arguing. For what it's worth, this is the comment of a key engineer involved in the development of the RF-7: "When comparing specs of the same speaker taken by two different sources there are many things to keep in mind. First, there is no standard way to measure frequency response, so when making a judgment about which set of numbers are correct you need to ask compared to what? Second, neither set of numbers is a complete picture. What your ears hear in a given listening room is a combination of direct, on axis sound and the speakers power response. The power response is the sum of the entire off axis energy, radiated in all directions, and then bounced off the room boundaries. No on-axis measurement taken at one point in space will accurately describe what your ears will hear in your room. Third, we have our method (and tools) and S & V has theirs. Microphones vary, rooms vary, measurement distances vary, the measurement axis varies, the software varies and so on. The method that we use has been refined over several decades (over five by the way) and it consists of a combination of anechoic, in room, and outdoor techniques. We feel that what we measure correlates quite well with what we hear in a typical listening room (whatever that is) out of a horn-loaded loudspeaker. Lastly be cautious about opinions formed after a quick listen in a store. What switchers, wiring and electronics are feeding the speakers? Are they out of phase with each other? Consider how many opportunities there are for this to happen in a typical dealer sound room. A phase reversal can occur at the back of each amplifier, at the input to the switcher, at the switchers output and finally at the back of the speakers. Dont be too confident about old model / new model comparisons unless you have the two speakers side by side in the same room. Such comparisons can be educational. We had a pair of Chorus IIs, Forte IIs KLF 20s and KLF 30s present during the RF 7s development for comparison. We currently have a pair of Cornwall Is side by side with the RF 7s in our lab and boy is that interesting! Suffice it to say I have a lot of respect for the Cornwall and a lot of satisfaction about how the RF 7 turned out." Thanks for asking for our response dean. I know it pains you to see people trashing the Klipsch brand. It's going to happen because people are people. We do what we think makes sense and then we live with our choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 To: BobG and the "name withheld for reasons unknown" engineer Bob quoted.....a resounding "Well Said!!!!!" I wonder if that mysterious engineer may have been PWK himself, or maybe Jim H., or.....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin S Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 Bob G., Thanks for the response. I was hoping that perhaps Klipsch had contacted S&V and would have a more definitive expalanation for the actual reasons for the measurement differences, as opposed to the generic explanation given by the engineer. I've been in this hobby long enough to know that what he said is certainly true, but it does not really explain what happened in this particular test. Given that there have been at least three recent tests of Klipsch products, by two different testers, and none of them produced measured results that correlated with what Klipsch published, I would think that Klipsch would be more concerned with how that looks to potential consumers. As I have stated before in other posts, I have been an owner of Klipsch products since 1985 and have followed published test results fairly consistently. These tests are the first that I have seen where the Klipsch speakers did not pretty much meet their published specs in the independent tests. Certainly I have missed some. However, from where I sit, something has changed, either at Klipsch, or in the reviewing community. As for the trust your ears argument, no one can argue that how a product sounds to an individual is the ultimate criteria. However, if specs did not count for something, why publish them at all? (At least one well known speaker manufacturer takes this position and is villified for pulling the wool over the eyes of the unsuspecting public, who can do nothing more than trust their ears when making a purchase!) Finally, I would be very unhappy if it has been my posts which you refer to as "trashing the Klipsch brand". It is my opinion that questioning the variance between Klipsch's specs and the specs from these various tests is a legitimate question in light of the importance I have always felt that Klipsch placed on measured performance. Asking the question, which appears to have been much tougher to answer than I thought it would be, was not intended by me to "trash" anybody. Again, thanks for taking the time to respond. ------------------ L/C/R: Klipsch Heresy II Surround: Klipsch RS-3 Subwoofers: 2 HSU-VTF-2 Pre/Pro/Tuner: McIntosh MX-132 AMP: McIntosh MC-7205 DVD: McIntosh MVP-831 CD Transport: Bang & Olufsen Beosound 9000 Turntable: Denon DP-72L Cassette: Nakamichi BX-1 T.V. : Mitsubishi 55905 SAT/HDTV: RCA DTC-100 Surge Protector: Monster Power HTS-5000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 24, 2002 Author Share Posted April 24, 2002 I don't think Bob was talking about you Kevin. I think he was speaking in general terms and was probably also alluding to comments by others on various forums. Your initial post was simply asking the question. I did not read anything you wrote that gave me the impression you were trashing Klipsch. I spent the afternoon listening to Roger Water's 'In the Flesh' on SACD. I will NEVER give up my RF7's. I can't even begin to imagine the amount of money I would have to spend to best them, and I have no idea where Klipsch goes from here. I've just always preferred the sound of two-ways with low crossover points -- and I can almost believe the RF7 was made just for me. Thanks for responding Bob -- we were just curious what you guys thought about the numbers. I accept the explantion as being completely reasonable. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>c>Super Ampf>s>c> Sonic Frontiers Line 1 Sony DVP-S9000ES Klipsch RF7f>s>c>'s SVS 20-39PCf>s>c>ic> MIT/Monsters Toshiba 36"f>s>c> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 04-24-2002 at 10:40 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 Certainly it is ligitimate to observe that Klipsch specs and magazine reviews don't match, and then question Klipsch on discrepencies. Of course, one should also question the magazines. On the other hand, do we know if specs published by other manufacturers regarding their own speaker products and magazine tests of them suffer the same sort of discrepencies? Other manufacturers might have the same gripes. It is easy to suspect that manufacturers use optimistic testing protocols and magazines use pessimistic ones. Even if there is some consistency in this suspected offset, then it is not particulary a matter that Klipsch is out of step. An inference would be that the magazines are trying to find fault, with some universality. Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin S Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 Gil makes a good point concerning whether or not other brands of speakers are missing their specs as badly in the S&V measurements. I do not know the answer. It is also a bit odd, IMHO, that S&V does not really point out the fact that the measurements do not meet spec, or that the measurements do not correlate with the listening impressions noted by the writer of the article. The cynic in me chalked this up to not wanting to overly ruffle the feathers of a current advertiser. The main reason this jumped out at me was that recent test on the RSW-15 and these two S&V articles were the first times that I had seen any articles where measurements were made on Klipsch speakers and the speakers missed their specs by a wide margin. And in the case of the sub, it was two different testers, both with the sub placed in the corner (which I thought would give the sub it's best chance to meet it's low end extension claims). And all of the Klipsch speakers I have owned (Klipschorns, LaScala's, Cornwalls, Heresy's, SW-15II and KG-2's) met their low end specs, in my rooms, when set up in the corners as Klipsch recommended. Anyway, we have Klipsch's answer. How about all of you Reference Series owners, have any of you tested the bandwidth of your speakers in your setups? If so, I think that there are some of us who would like to know the results and how you have the speakers set up to achieve those results. Personally, if I had set up my HSU subs and found that, even though I thought they sounded good, that they were only good to say 35hz and not 25 hz as advertised, they would have been shipped right back. Because, although you cannot make a purchase only based on specs, the specs are supposed to be a representation of what you are getting from the product for your money, and I certainly wasn't looking for a sub that only went down to 35hz. Thats enough from me. Thanks again to Bob G, and everyone else who has been responding to my question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 25, 2002 Author Share Posted April 25, 2002 If you are someone else can talk me through what I need to accomplish what you are asking -- I would be glad to do it. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>c>Super Ampf>s>c> Sonic Frontiers Line 1 Sony DVP-S9000ES Klipsch RF7f>s>c>'s SVS 20-39PCf>s>c>ic> MIT/Monsters Toshiba 36"f>s>c> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin S Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 Dean, Do you have a CD with frequency test tones on it and a sound pressure level meter? If so, or if you can get them, what I do is very simple: Play the 1khz test tone so that while the spl meter is at my listening position it reads around 75db, with the spl meter aimed up at the ceiling about level with where my head would be. I use a tripod to hold the meter. Then play the other test tones, with the meter in the same position, and read the levels on the meter that they produce and write them down. The relative level of all the frequency's you measure, when compared to the 75db 1khz test tone, gives you a very rudimentary picture of your speaker's bandwidth and frequency response. There are some adjustments that you have to make to the reading of the Radio Shack meter I use, because the meter itself rolls off the bass fequencies, so I adjust for that. There may be better meters that read flat. I think thats about it. Let us know what you find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 25, 2002 Author Share Posted April 25, 2002 Do i get the meter with the digital read out or the analog one? What is the best CD with test tones and where can I get one? ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>c>Super Ampf>s>c> Sonic Frontiers Line 1 Sony DVP-S9000ES Klipsch RF7f>s>c>'s SVS 20-39PCf>s>c>ic> MIT/Monsters Toshiba 36"f>s>c> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J M O N Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 Other variables not mentioned are: test procedures, measurement equipment used, calibration of measurement equipment, and simple human error. There are simply too many variables for these specs to really mean a whole lot. If you had 100 different people measure the speakers, you would get 100 different results. Then you can also throw in the specs that have been "doctored". You can probably still find a car stereo power booster that will put out 500 wpc at the flea market for $30. This message has been edited by JMON on 04-25-2002 at 11:02 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 If you don't like the results move the microphone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin S Posted April 26, 2002 Share Posted April 26, 2002 Dean, The Stereophile magazine website has a couple of test CD's you can purchase. Most folks seem to use the analog SPL meter, thats what I have. The SVS web site has some information on what adjustments to make to the meter readings to compensate for the bass rolloff of the meter itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzannucci Posted April 26, 2002 Share Posted April 26, 2002 Hey they did say that there was floor bounce and stuff that contributed to the numbers. That indicates issue with where and how they were tested. There are a lot of wonderful speakers out there that will test +/- 5db in a house setting. If you are looking for test CD's, why don't you get a signal generator that works through your sound card in the computer. Hook it to your amplifier and do your testing. Also those test CD's that have 1/3 octave pink noise are supposed to be good for testing in household areas. Peter Z. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
htxpert Posted April 26, 2002 Share Posted April 26, 2002 TBrennan said "If you don't like the results move the microphone" I only wished this worked on my Kareoke Machine ------------------ Will be demoing new K-Horns soon because America's HERITAGE is a terrible thing to waste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shank2001 Posted May 19, 2002 Share Posted May 19, 2002 Hey BobG, I noticed that you had compared the RF7 to a number of older speakers in particular the Chorus 2s which is what I have. I am curious what you thought about the comparison. How did the RF7s hold up to the Chorus 2s which in my opinion are amazing? Alot of my friends are always AMAZED at the sound from my Chorus 2s saying they are the best speakers they have ever heard in their lives. They want to buy Klipsch speakers because of this experience, but I am not sure which model to point them to that I can confidently say is every bit as good as the Chorus 2s. I would not want my friends to buy a current model Klipsch only to be dissapointed. Thanks for any information! Regards, Sean ------------------ Sean Keegan Klipsch Chorus IIs Sony TA-E1000ES Pre-Amp 2 Mono 300W Sony TA-N330ES Amplifiers (Front) 1 Sony TA-N330ES Amplifier (Rear) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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