K69 on 402 or 510 and why?

[Coytee]

For the sake of conversation, if you were going to do a 3-way Jubilee...or a 3-way MWM (perhaps 4-way MWM)...

Which of the two scenarios would be better?

Bass bins crossed to midrange (K402 with 1132 (or maybe it's the 1133, I forget)) crossed to EITHER another K402 with the K69 or the K510 with the K69.

In other words, for tweeter use, would a K402/69 be "better" sitting on top of a K402/?? or would a K510/69 be better sitting on top of a K402/??

I know the 510 is smaller and more practical... so let's throw that logic out of the equation.

Since I already HAVE the 402/69 if I get more parts, it would actually SAVE me some expense by not having to get a 510/69 but I would easily consider getting the 510/69 if for technical reasons, is a better way to go.

With regard to the MWM's, I would think having the MWM's on the bottom with three identical 402's on top (one with the new midbass driver, another with 1132 and the third with the K69) would have identical dispersion qualities instead of mixing horns.

(would look good too!)

Thoughts?

[Chris A]

Bass bins crossed to midrange (K402 with 1132 (or maybe it's the 1133, I forget)) crossed to EITHER another K402 with the K69 or the K510 with the K69

Richard,

Once you get above ~1600 Hz, the K-510 holds its polars very well in both the vertical and horizontal. You will get very little further advantage in having the K-402 doing "tweeter service" above about 1600 Hz. However, if you plan to change your setup later and use the K-402s in center or surround positions AND you have the space now to put K-402s on top, maybe the K-402s might make more sense. Also note that you only have to align the K-402's horn mouths (as a first order approx.) in order to achieve time alignment of tweeter and midrange drivers - which will be your greatest challenge to achieving 3-D soundstage with a three-way system. However, note that the K-402s will spread the vertical distance between the tweeter and the midrange drivers more, and that isn't really as desirable as to get the two drivers as close as practical in the vertical direction.

By the way, the K-69-A probably isn't the best tweeter compression driver that's available for this application. You might look around for better 7-20 kHz performance without titanium diaphragm ringing that either an aluminum- or beryllium-diaphragm compression driver might deliver. There are also titanium diaphragms that are "ribbed" that also might decrease the ringing issue - which will significantly clean up cymbals and snare reproduction a lot. You could even consider using a 1"-2" throat transition and use a 1" tweeter compression driver, which might be a little less pricey but have the same or superior performance in the upper hf band.

One of the more interesting concepts is the Synergy Horn (SH) approach which will achieve better time alignment without even using an active crossover, and the midrange/tweeter horns could be consolidated into one straight-sided horn.

...but that's speaking heresy... [6]

With regard to the MWM's, I would think having the MWM's on the bottom with three identical 402's on top (one with the new midbass driver, another with 1132 and the third with the K69) would have identical dispersion qualities instead of mixing horns.

Clearly, this would not be a design goal for me. Getting the drivers closer together would be much higher on my list of things to achieve - unless you are going to be listening more than 40 feet away... []

Chris

[Guest " "]

I would use the k-69 on a 510 as a tweeter cross over at 8Khz and a group delay of 6.38ms, I would use the k-402 on a k-1133 as a high mid driver cross over at 800hz with a group delay of 5.38ms, I would use the KPT-XII-MB as a low mid driver cross over at 300hz with a group delay of 5.35ms, and the MWM's dual stack with 0 GD. all xovers 24db per octave. .

[BLSamuel]

I'm more of a lurker when it comes to Jubilees and MWM and MCMs but doesn't the midbass driver use a horn more like a baby MWM that's more like a normal 10" or 12" bass driver? And I was thinking the K402 was good down to 400 to 600 HZ? Perhaps the person who recently got the new improved mid bass driver can clarify?

Just thinking out loud. If you already have the K402s I'd think 2 of them on top of MWM would be fine but I also think you want a MSSM or something like that to go between the lower K402 and the MWM?

So y'all gearin' up for the long rumored Coyteefest? []

[Coytee]

Ok, thanks guys. I guess it makes more sense to use the 510's. (I would then have a use for those on my rear LaScalas anyway so maybe I'm making a mountain out of it)

Ben, I think the midbass unit you're referring to is called the K305 but I'm not 100% on that. It's a K402 horn with some 8" (maybe 10") driver hanging off the back of it. It's intended use is to replace/update the XII midbass unit which is what you are referring to. (at least that's my understanding)

This would be for outdoor use, not indoor. I've got enough noise indoors, don't need bigger parts!

[Coytee]

this would not be a design goal for me. Getting the drivers closer together would be much higher on my list of things to achieve - unless you are going to be listening more than 40 feet away...

Last time I set it up, it was 52' from speaker to ears however, your point about getting them closer is not falling on deaf ears (yet [])

510 it is.

[Modified-Tractrix]

Maybe I am taking an overly simplistic viewpoint of this, but Roy used the Grand HF for the top end which uses the 510/K-69 combination. I would think if the 402/K69 did better in that application that he would use it there.

[Coytee]

C'mon... who's idea are you going to put more trust/faith in?

Roy's? Mr. Engineer, PWK's right hand man with nice anechoic chambers and tons of testing electronics...

or

me?

[6]

[BLSamuel]

Here's the current image of the KPT MCM-4-T Grand Cinema Speaker

Overview

The KPT-MCM-4-T Grand is the first and only fully horn-loaded, THX®-Approved four-way cinema system.

• Low frequency by a KPT-MWM dual, 15-inch, high efficiency, horn-loaded woofer enclosure
• 
  Separate, single, 12-inch, Tractrix® Horn-loaded mid-bass device
• 
  High frequencies by the Tractrix® Horn two-inch exit titanium compression driver

The
first and only fully horn-loaded, THX®-Approved four-way cinema system,
the KPT-MCM-4-T Grand affords the ultimate in audio performance for
larger exhibition spaces and, in particular, those grand auditioriums
fitted with digital sound reproduction equipment.

The low frequency punch is provided by a KPT-MWM dual, 15-inch, high
efficiency, horn-loaded woofer enclosure, aided by a separate, single,
12-inch, Tractrix® Horn-loaded mid-bass device, the KPT-XII. High
frequencies are effortlessly reproduced by the KPT-402-MF Tractrix® Horn
and Klipsch K-1133 two-inch exit titanium compression driver. The high
output, extended high frequency horn module, the KPT-Grand-HF-T,
provides extra sizzle in more majestic-sized theaters. The MCM Grand is
ultra-efficient and, in correct multi-channel configuration, can yield
absolutely even sound coverage to every seat in the house.

Specifications

FREQUENCY RESPONSE	40Hz-19kHz ± 3dB, -10dB @ 35Hz
DELAY	LF- 0ms MB- 5.35ms MF- 5.38ms HF- 6.38ms
CROSSOVER SLOPE	24dB/Octave
SYSTEM COMPONENTS	LF- KPT-MWM-LF – 400 watt/driver MB- KPT-XII-MB – 250 watts MF- KPT-402-MF – 50 watts HF- KPT-GRAND-HF-T – 50 watts
SENSITIVITY	108dB
CROSSOVER FREQUENCY	300Hz, 800Hz, 8kHz
COVERAGE ANGLE	HORIZONTAL 80°± 20° 200Hz-16kHz VERTICAL 50°± 30° 350Hz-16kHz
HEIGHT	98" (249cm)
WIDTH	67.25" (170.8cm)
DEPTH	45" (114.3cm)
WEIGHT	531 lbs. (241.6kg)

Is the KPT-XII the upgraded midbass? It uses a single 12" so maybe not. The high frequency is for extra sizzle in majestic theaters. You're outside so what gets more majestic than that? Given your love of plenty of amplification and healthy volume levels the midbass might be good insurance for your K-69 so it doesn't have to go as low?

So just sell off a few things from your wife's semi trailer storage and buy a set of these and be done with it. They you'd only have to haul 'em out for the shows instead of whatever it is you're doing now.

p.s. Hide the keys to Brutus before selling off your wife's stuff.

[Guest " "]

Here's the current image of the KPT MCM-4-T Grand Cinema Speaker

Overview

The KPT-MCM-4-T Grand is the first and only fully horn-loaded, THX®-Approved four-way cinema system.

• Low frequency by a KPT-MWM dual, 15-inch, high efficiency, horn-loaded woofer enclosure

• Separate, single, 12-inch, Tractrix® Horn-loaded mid-bass device

• High frequencies by the Tractrix® Horn two-inch exit titanium compression driver

The

first and only fully horn-loaded, THX®-Approved four-way cinema system,

the KPT-MCM-4-T Grand affords the ultimate in audio performance for

larger exhibition spaces and, in particular, those grand auditioriums

fitted with digital sound reproduction equipment.

The low frequency punch is provided by a KPT-MWM dual, 15-inch, high

efficiency, horn-loaded woofer enclosure, aided by a separate, single,

12-inch, Tractrix® Horn-loaded mid-bass device, the KPT-XII. High

frequencies are effortlessly reproduced by the KPT-402-MF Tractrix® Horn

and Klipsch K-1133 two-inch exit titanium compression driver. The high

output, extended high frequency horn module, the KPT-Grand-HF-T,

provides extra sizzle in more majestic-sized theaters. The MCM Grand is

ultra-efficient and, in correct multi-channel configuration, can yield

absolutely even sound coverage to every seat in the house.

Specifications

FREQUENCY RESPONSE

40Hz-19kHz ± 3dB, -10dB @ 35Hz

DELAY

LF- 0ms

MB- 5.35ms

MF- 5.38ms

HF- 6.38ms

CROSSOVER SLOPE

24dB/Octave

SYSTEM COMPONENTS

LF- KPT-MWM-LF 400 watt/driver

MB- KPT-XII-MB 250 watts

MF- KPT-402-MF 50 watts

HF- KPT-GRAND-HF-T 50 watts

SENSITIVITY

108dB

CROSSOVER FREQUENCY

300Hz, 800Hz, 8kHz

COVERAGE ANGLE

HORIZONTAL 80°± 20° 200Hz-16kHz

VERTICAL 50°± 30° 350Hz-16kHz

HEIGHT

98" (249cm)

WIDTH

67.25" (170.8cm)

DEPTH

45" (114.3cm)

WEIGHT

531 lbs. (241.6kg)

Is the KPT-XII the upgraded midbass? It uses a single 12" so maybe not. The high frequency is for extra sizzle in majestic theaters. You're outside so what gets more majestic than that? Given your love of plenty of amplification and healthy volume levels the midbass might be good insurance for your K-69 so it doesn't have to go as low?

So just sell off a few things from your wife's semi trailer storage and buy a set of these and be done with it. They you'd only have to haul 'em out for the shows instead of whatever it is you're doing now.

p.s. Hide the keys to Brutus before selling off your wife's stuff.

If they could make that bass bin a little bigger, we could put all the horns on individual shelves, and leave a few shelves for the significant other to hang dishes, steins, and other collectables.

[djk]

[Coytee]

Is the KPT-XII the upgraded midbass?

No. Although I don't know the details about the upgrade, from what I understand it takes a stock K402 and hangs an eight or ten inch driver on the back of it. You can see the throat of the XII isn't the same as the 402 above it.

Mark has a pair of these. I think they're called KP305 but don't remember. I'd love to see a good picture of them.

[BLSamuel]

Is the KPT-XII the upgraded midbass?

No. Although I don't know the details about the upgrade, from what I understand it takes a stock K402 and hangs an eight or ten inch driver on the back of it. You can see the throat of the XII isn't the same as the 402 above it.

Mark has a pair of these. I think they're called KP305 but don't remember. I'd love to see a good picture of them.

I had assumed that the stock K402 throat would be too tiny for an 8, 10, or 12" driver. I'm in way over my head when it comes to horn theory but in my thick little skull, ok my head is not little, but the thick skull part... the maybe 2" throat would be too small for an 8 or 10 inch driver.... but they do call them compression drivers for a reason don't they?

Here's a solution, take a second mortgage out on your father in law's home, if you can't raise enough funds for all your wife's semi trailer things she'll never miss - until you sell them, and have Roy send you what you really need.

All this thinking and speculating has got to be giving you headaches. It makes my head hurt....

[colterphoto1]

Richard, I have both horns here and the XTI, but don't have the DX38. We need to get together and audition all this stuff together before anyone buys anything.

Michael

[Schu]

sub'ed

[CECAA850]

Richard, I have both horns here and the XTI, but don't have the DX38. We need to get together and audition all this stuff together before anyone buys anything.

 

Michael

 

I'm sure he would have appreciated that 3 1/2 years ago.

[mark1101]

I have tried the 402 with 4 different drivers, different crossover points, and with and without the 510.

 

Nothing touches the combination of the 402/510.  You aren't going to beat that combo with just a 402 and a TAD driver.  I proved that to myself regardless of drivers.  The 510 gives better emphasis in the room on the highs.

 

That said, the TADs belong on the 402 because they are the clearest sounding I have tried and do the best for my system in that spot.  I am using the Faitals on my 510s and they work just fine.  They also sounded pretty good on the 402.

 

Across the room I have a pair of 402s with BMS4592 Coax's on them with DBB (double cornwall) bass cabinets..........so a 2 way system running as a 3-way and using ALK ES500 passives............Now this sounds respectable but the 402/510 sounds much better.

 

I also have the 305 and it has an 8" driver.  The Klipsch literature is apparently not updated yet.  The XII was a 12" driver and I ran them side by side and liked the XII better.  I ordered and paid for a pair of XII and the 305s showed up at my door.  Nothing I could do as the XII were out of production and I had been borrowing a pair from JWC when the 305s arrived.

 

Roy told me the K402 will go down to 250Hz.

 

I am running 50, 300, 600, and 6000 as my crossovers.  I had trouble at 800 and had to move it down to 600.

 

My advice would be to upgrade the Jubs to 3-way and get 510s..........that's money in the bank.  You would never regret that spend.  Although you may also need a new processor with more I/O and another amp.  Just a few more pennies.

[Heritage_Head]

Where did you buy your horns?

[mark1101]

I contacted Roy and ordered through him.  The order actually then goes through a dealer.........American Cinema (or something like that).........I'm sure somone knows the name,  It's been awhile.  The products then drop ship from Hope.

[Schu]

I've contacted two dealers... one in canada... and I can not find someone that will sell me 510 lens, or 402 lens.

I either get the run around saying, "you need to contact a distributor in amerca" or I get the "I can not find the part number/that part number is not on our price list" excuse.