How you would acquire a new rig if you were starting from scratch

[Chris A]

If you were starting from scratch and had no equipment (but knowing what you know now), how would you go about acquiring your equipment, particularly speakers? (Speakers are always the weakest link and the subject of most of this forum.)

1) How would you identify your allowable budget versus time?

2) Would you buy all used, all new, or a mix (including source material, audio input devices, amplifiers/processors, speakers including subs if any, cables, room treatment devices, architectural updates)? What would you buy used and what new?

3) What would you be trying to achieve - i.e., as close to a realistic performance as you could afford, or "something that sounds good to play stuff that you used to listen to when you were young".

4) How much would you be willing to pay for visual attractiveness instead of performance (% cost of the component)? This includes tubes and non-audio devices.

5) How much would you buy-and-sell in order to achieve your ideal system goal(s)? Would you try to minimize this? Would you buy without first hearing the equipment? What components would that be?

6) How would you go about listening to the equipment before buying?

A request to minimize flames and thread hijacking--

There are a few questions above: make an effort to address all questions -not just a favorite one or two.

Chris

[CECAA850]

NM

[jcmusic]

I would decide on the speakers first that will dictate the amps power, so from there it is just what ever you like. I think the speakers and amp are the heart and soul of a system, the pre amp is the brains.

Jay

[Coytee]

1) How would you identify your allowable budget versus time?

I think we all have our own "Mr. Budget" that we talk to every now & then. So for me, I would look at where to I want to finally land and would simply start acquiring parts towards that goal, even if I might not be able to put it together for a while. I would still enjoy the parts I had in the meantime.

2) Would you buy all used, all new, or a mix (including source material, audio input devices, amplifiers/processors, speakers including subs if any, cables, room treatment devices, architectural updates)? What would you buy used and what new?

Although I don't necessarily have a mental block on buying used, I will note that virtually all of my speakers were in fact, bought new (oops, just remembered the two used MWM's in garage). My Peach, Dx38 CD were bought new. I have another Dx38, DVD player, 2 crown amps, 1 dbx amp (and a slew of tube amps now sold) that I bought used. If one has sufficient Mr. Budget then new is great as it helps keep the company's product being sold. I don't put much stock in cables so I'm ok with those that come in the box. That said, I've got 10/15 lengths of Mogami wire left over from wiring my room so I'll turn those into XLR wires once I get closer and know the exact lengths.

3) What would you be trying to achieve - i.e., as close to a realistic performance as you could afford, or "something that sounds good to play stuff that you used to listen to when you were young".

I still love the dynamics today that I discovered and fell in love with when I was young. To that end, I'm trying to assemble something (akin to Rigma's system) that I can afford and would also work in my room. This is why I'm burying my two LaScalas in the back wall. I don't have room for more Jubilee's back there.

4) How much would you be willing to pay for visual attractiveness instead of performance (% cost of the component)? This includes tubes and non-audio devices

For me it's first and foremost asthetics FIRST, then sonics.... ok, I lied. I don't really care what it looks like as long as it delivers the scale of sound. I'm actually wondering if I can pull off leaving the Jubilee's upstairs (when basement is done) and instead, bring in the MWM cabinets. I'm not so sure she'll go for that.

5) How much would you buy-and-sell in order to achieve your ideal system goal(s)? Would you try to minimize this? Would you buy without first hearing the equipment? What components would that be?

I tend to not buy/sell. I tend to buy/hold. I might (and have) sold things... but that's in part because some of them would not work for me (the small SE-OTL tube amps for example) so there was no reason to sell them. I did not buy them initially thinking I'd sell them. I then sold the McIntosh 2102 amp because I felt I could get similar sound for fewer dollars so it was a logical thing for me. Frankly, I think that is one of the most beautiful amps I've ever laid my eyes on.... but it just didn't work for the practical side of me.

6) How would you go about listening to the equipment before buying?

Speakers are about the only thing that I would want to audition. I would not care as much about electronics since my belief is that the speakers affect the sound far more than the electronics do. This is one reason I admire those of you (about 10 people that I can immediately think of) who bought the Jubilee's without ever having heard them. For the price of admission, that was a reasonable leap of faith. I don't know that I could do that... then again, I didn't really have those circumstances in front of me where I knew it was avaiable prior to hearing it. I stumbled into the audition at Hope and said, 'YEAH BABY, those are for ME!" Had I stumbled onto the forum today, I don't know if I would buy them unheard or not. Part of me thinks I would because I know Khorns and since these are "new & improved" I would have some background to go on.

[cornfedksboy]

I would find my budget and then work on putting together the best 5.1 matched system I could from that point (time would not be a factor). Let's just say I had $5000.00 to spend. I would probably put 35-40% towards the receiver end leaving me $3000-3200.00 to spend on speakers. I'm going to say I'm an HT guy and I want some Reference speakers. Ideally I would like to get the RF-7 II surround system. MSRP on that would be $5700.00 with no Pre/Pro, Amps, or sub. Even buying B-Stock or used at this time would put me out of my pricing. Taking it down a notch to the RF-82 II system puts me in the ballpark at $2500.00, but I think I can get a better system used. Perhaps the RF-83 5.1 used will get me there, so I would find a fine member to this forum and see about inviting myself over for a listen, just to make sure I still know what I want. Just from browsing the internet, I'd say $1400 for the front two and $600.00 for the RC-64. Two RS-62s for $500.00 and there it is! Lots of time hunting e-bay, craigslist, etc. to make it fit my budget.

I buy the pre/pro new in order to have the latest functionallity and go all out bang-for-your-buck on this. The Emotiva 7.1 UMC-1 for $700.00 and the XPA-5 5, 200 watt X 5 channel amp for $900.00 leaves me $900.00 for my subwoofer. Maybe the Epic Empire featuring dual 15" subs and 600 watts is the ticket. Grand total is $4900.00.

So, my philosophy is to find your budget, plan on spending 1/3-1/2 of that on your processors and amps and then find the best matched speakers you can with the remaining money. If you don't have the money for the speakers you want new, then just back up a model until you get there and buy used.

So I know that I don't have a BRP, cables, or other, but if I'm going to spend $5000.00 on my system over a course of time, then I should definately have the available funding to pick up moderately priced components and cables on-line. I'm going to assume I already have a TV will just have to wait to upgrade it until tax season. Room treatment and architectural updates are totally DIY.

If my budget were cut in half (which it is) the approch is still the same, but I go with the used RF-82 set-up pieced together over time with an appropriately sized 7.1 channel AVR. I am in the process of putting together this system as we speak. So far I'm into it $500.00 for a new Onkyo TX-NR708, $350.00 for two RF-82s, $600.00 for two RW-12ds. I'm $1450.00 into it and need to get an RC-62 and two RS-52s. Just waiting to find those for $300.00 and $500.00 respectively. $200.00 more for a Blu-Ray. Will sell old (not matched) equipment after I've got the system completely in place and buy a two or three channel amp. to finish up on budget. I also allowed $1500.00 for the projector and screen which I got as well. So $4000.00 HT budget: 1/3 for visual and 2/3 for the processor and speakers leaving $2500.00. I spent just shy of 1/3 of that on the receiver and BRP and 2/3 on the speakers. That seems about right!

[Mike Dubay]

I would give it a shot.

1) How would you identify your allowable budget versus time? I never, never, never use credit for my hobby stuff, so I would have to use cash on hand. I would probably budget about a years worth of 'spending' money over a 2 year period.

2) Would you buy all used, all new, or a mix (including source material, audio input devices, amplifiers/processors, speakers including subs if any, cables, room treatment devices, architectural updates)? BIG question. What would you buy used and what new? A mix. Source material: new CDs, used vinyl, used CD player with modded tube output, used turntable great sounding stuff in the $150 to $300 range, amplifiers: either Dynakit MKIII monoblocks or a Lation stereo KT-88 amp, speakers: DIY Cornscalas with new crites parts, probably skip the subwoofers for now, hand wired phono preamp, cables DIY with PE express wire, a DIY bass corner trap, and I would build an open cabinet about twice the size I have now.

3) What would you be trying to achieve - i.e., as close to a realistic performance as you could afford, or "something that sounds good to play stuff that you used to listen to when you were young". Some were in between, I only will get a glimmer of live sounding male volcals with my SET amp and squawker, but the CS's sound so much better than just "good".

4) How much would you be willing to pay for visual attractiveness instead of performance (% cost of the component)? This includes tubes and non-audio devices. Almost nothing, just make the cabinetry for the speakers and the cabinet look professional. So I would spring for oak laminate probably about $400 total instead of painting flat black.

5) How much would you buy-and-sell in order to achieve your ideal system goal(s)? Almost no selling. Would you try to minimize this? Yes, try to do it well the first time. Would you buy without first hearing the equipment? Yes, I never listened to Cornscalas before, but with the copious reviews here I would have no problem putting a pair together. What components would that be? The KT-88 amp kits, and the speakers.

6) How would you go about listening to the equipment before buying? My used CD player and turntable was purchased from the local record store, I can listen before buying.

I would follow my 50/50 rule: spend half on source material, of the second half, spend half on speakers, and the other half on all the rest.

so: 50% records and CDs

25% on speakers

25% on amp, cd player, turn table and tt preamp

but compare apples to apples, calculate every thing based on retail cost, not the cost's used or through DIY.

So;

Cornscalas with passive crossover (look to new Cornwalls for cost) $3,800

KT88 amp(s) $1500

Used turntable: $300

Tube Turntable preamp: $150

Used CD player: $25

CD player tube output: $200

DIY cables: $150

That seems to hit the mark well.

and many trips to CD Universe and various used Record Stores....

[Ski Bum]

1) How would you identify your allowable budget versus time?

Well, that depends on finances, which are up and down. I'm hyper-frugal, so I would spend considerable time educating myself on what's out there, what would fit my taste, and represents true value. Unfortunately, the whole audio industry is plagued with lack of standards and unprovable marketing nonsense. It's almost as bad as woo-medicine, but without the deleterious effect on public health. A bit of research prior to purchase can save a ton of money.

2) Would you buy all used, all new, or a mix (including source material, audio input devices, amplifiers/processors, speakers including subs if any, cables, room treatment devices, architectural updates)? What would you buy used and what new?

See above...frugality means let others pay full retail; the true outstanding deals are in used gear, from Klipsch Heritage, to exotic amps or whatever else. I would buy new CD/DVD/Blue-ray player, as those have moving parts, as well as impending obsolescence due to changing formats, flexible connectivity (wifi), etc.

3) What would you be trying to achieve - i.e., as close to a realistic performance as you could afford, or "something that sounds good to play stuff that you used to listen to when you were young".

Trying to exactly replicate what was heard in the studio/venue is impossible, so I am not a stickler for 'accuracy' or some dogmatic engineering definition of fidelity to source. I like low distortion, highly resolved detail, and uncompressed dynamics, as live music sounds. But above all, I like good imaging, meaning speakers do the disappearing act well, leaving the music to be presented in an unfettered way. Think 'musicians in the room' effect. Although I have several different systems following quite divergent approaches, they all manage to get out of the way of the music to a great degree. Most time/effort of system setup should concern speakers and your listening room.

4) How much would you be willing to pay for visual attractiveness instead of performance (% cost of the component)? This includes tubes and non-audio devices.

A bit more. With WAF and my own compulsiveness, visual aesthetics go a long way. But I wouldn't buy a beautiful speaker unless it sounded beautiful as well. I just picked up some GORGEOUS oiled oak forte II's in flawless condition, at a very good price, if thats any indication.

5) How much would you buy-and-sell in order to achieve your ideal system goal(s)? Would you try to minimize this? Would you buy without first hearing the equipment? What components would that be?

Well, been doing the audio drug since I was a teenager. More buying than selling over the years, for which extended family is quite grateful as they get the hand-me-downs. As mentioned, I'm frugal, so it hasn't been too out of control. I wouldn't buy speakers without hearing them first, ditto for tube amps, but I would consider buying sources or conventional SS amps without hearing them.

6) How would you go about listening to the equipment before buying?

My most recent purchase were the pair of minty fortes; bought local on Craigslist, auditioned before purchase at sellers home. Next most recent purchase (several years ago) was a SET amp; auditioned at the manufacturer at their annual three day party where all their amps and speakers are available to play with (Decware does this every fall). Also, RMAF is a good place to hear product not otherwise accessible. I think the most important thing to listen to prior to purchase are speakers, preferably in your own home. And if you have a taste for distortion prone amps like SETs, they should be auditioned because unlike most SS, they all have their own idiosyncratic sonic personalities.

[RagingBullWinkle]

I am doing the same thing I did 36 years ago when I bought my LaScalas. Spend as much as you can on speakers and then a cheep amp and upgrade along the way. This time around I over spent on a unfinished pair of K-Horns. Going to the finsher next week.

Then on Craig's list I found a TAD-60 Power Amplifier
Push-Pull Class-A Design, UL or Triode Mode, Variable Feedback
1960's Quality - China/US Finished Design
An Audiogon.com Favorite??

Dose any one know any thing about this amp? I'm picking it tomorrow to use wile I save for a tube Mac. pre amp? End goal is three mono blocks and a Mac. tube pre. K-Horns with a center. Budget unknown at this time the Mac is the big ticket I did find the mono blocks new for 1100.00 for all three. I went with price and reviews only fingers crossed.

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/amplification/amplifiers/tube-audio-design/TAD-125-Hibachi-mono-blocks/PRD_436770_1583crx.aspx

Shopping list is, One Bell, Turntable, McIntoch Tube Pre amp, SACD and acoustic panels

.

[russ69]

...Spend as much as you can on speakers...

Word up!

[mark1101]

I would buy every single piece used.

[Chris A]

Thanks for the inputs so far.

I think that we each assume that we understand what everyone is trying to achieve and how they plan on doing it, but many times the assumptions are wrong. I've already learned some things here.

Chris

[LarryC]

I would decide on the speakers first that will dictate the amps power, so from there it is just what ever you like. I think the speakers and amp are the heart and soul of a system, the pre amp is the brains

I largely agree with this, since I want to choose the character of the speaker I want and go from there.However, to me, a quality amplifier has a livliness, purity, and accuracy of sonic quality. A poor quality amp will often sound grainy and edgy, and too unpleasant to listen to for any length of time. There's no speaker made that can somehow reverse those weaknesses. A tube amplifier is better at those things IMO.

Some seem to say that sound quality is generic, and that choosing a different speaker is the same thing as, or a substitute for, a different amplifier. Not so, IMO, as those are different qualities.

So, I would look at choosing the speaker and amp/preamp together, so that they sound right and are synergistic with each other. Sound sources will almost invariably sound better when the speaker and amp are all set. There again, different sound source qualities usually can't make up for deficiencies in amplification or speakers. Just my $0.02, YMMV.

[RagingBullWinkle]

This time around the cheep amp is a TAD 60 with a Set of KT88EH tubes. Just picked it up today. Came with a set of speakers and some King Cobra interconnects, It was a steel off Craig's list. This will give me time to come up with a good deal on a McIntosh pre amp. This is a cool little intergrated amp.

[RagingBullWinkle]

Larry I just E-Mailed the designer of the amp I picked up tonight and thought based on your post you would be interested in my take on this tube hype thing...

Holy shit!!

Paul,

I have not listened to Klipsh speakers or any speakers with a tube amp in 36 years..
I found you because of a Craig's list ad for a TAD-60. I bought the Mono blocks as a leap of faith based on reviews on line.
Today I brought home the TAD-60 and put a SACD to it with my LaSalas

Paul I'm not kidding my wife went to bed early as I was setting it up so I'm now sitting by my self listing to to SACDs at a very low volume with a tear ruining down my cheek.

I wanted to up my listing experience with the K-Horns when all the time I could have done it with an amp??. This is life changing stuff. Please tell me I'm going to enjoy the mono blocks as well...BLISSSSSSSSS!!
--G--

[Ski Bum]

I wanted to up my listing experience with the K-Horns when all the time I could have done it with an amp??. This is life changing stuff. Please tell me I'm going to enjoy the mono blocks as well...BLISSSSSSSSS!!
--G--

It's weird, isn't it? SS always leaves me with the impression that I'm listening to a recording being reproduced, regardless of how well the equipment doing it's job (objectively speaking, SS does a great job). Tube amps, on the other hand, make me feel like I'm listening to MUSIC. Tubes + Klipsch = [Y][]

36 years you've denied yourself this simple pleasure? Well, it's about time, and welcome back!

[RagingBullWinkle]

There is no going back that's for sure.[]

I just hope I'm going to love the mono blocks as well as the 60. I did get a response from the designer this AM I should be Ok? If I don't like them I will just put the pre amp on the TAD-60 that I was going to flip. I doubt I will ever sell it now.

I'm glad you are enjoying the 60!
Hibachi amps have much stronger bass response than the 60 with a fair amount of midrange tubeyness - especially when using a tube preamp to drive them to produce the best of solid state and tube power amps.

Paul

[Hofy]

I actually did start over from scratch in 2003.

1) How would you identify your allowable budget versus time? Time is irrelevant, it is the journey that makes it worth it to me. Budget, I never let stereo funds take away from the essentials.

2) Would you buy all used, all new, or a mix (including source material, audio input devices, amplifiers/processors, speakers including subs if any, cables, room treatment devices, architectural updates)? What would you buy used and what new? Used where ever possible. I picked up my KM-6 speakers (KG5.5) on ebay for $300-400. They where like new. My Marantz 2230 also off ebay last year for $129, completely rebuilt. Pioneer PD-M453 CD player new in the box for $10 at Goodwill.

3) What would you be trying to achieve - i.e., as close to a realistic performance as you could afford, or "something that sounds good to play stuff that you used to listen to when you were young". Probably the latter, it is about enjoying the music, so what ever sounds good.

4) How much would you be willing to pay for visual attractiveness instead of performance (% cost of the component)? This includes tubes and non-audio devices. Not much, function over form first. If it looks good too, bonus.

5) How much would you buy-and-sell in order to achieve your ideal system goal(s)? Would you try to minimize this? Would you buy without first hearing the equipment? What components would that be? I have always sold the old to get new. This has always been a rule of mine. I usually dont listen first anymore but I do massive amounts of research so I know what I should be getting.

6) How would you go about listening to the equipment before buying? If possible listen to the actual piece from the seller. If not there then locate someone near by that has the same model and listen to theirs if possible.

[StephenM]

Starting from scratch...

1. I'd first have to get an idea of what I wanted to come up with a budget, which goes to item 6 of hitting up the local dealers and listening to what I would consider affordable. Time? Depends on how much I'm willing to save each month to get to the goal, but if I had the opportunity to start over I'd try to just make it a one and done deal and do it reasonably quickly.

2. I'd probably go with new or preferably factory refurbished for whatever I could.

3. I'm not really an audiophile so I suppose I lean more towards column B "something that sounds good"; however, I'm still in my prime []

4. More than I'd care to admit. I regularly ogle the shiny new speakers on Klipsch's website.

5. I'd buy and sell as little as possible. And no, I probably wouldn't buy without first hearing the equipment.

6. As mentioned, the old fashioned way.

[JBryan]

First, I would expect the Klipsch forum to be speakercentric, a bit horn-heavy and efficiency biased but if the conversation here gets tiring, there are plenty of other forums with their own particular biases to keep us entertained. Besides, this hobby is mostly about the journey and it has a rather large learning curve. As I put together my system and heard new gear, I was exposed to new sounds that refined my listening experience and redefined my audio priorities which in turn, reset my path to a new audio nirvana. My journey began with a lot of fits and starts and it took years to determine which path to take. My most recent quest began about 15 years ago when I rediscovered tube amps. I thought I had found my nirvana with McIntosh SS gear and B&W 801 speakers when I came across a Music Reference tube amp and everything I had come to expect from my system dramatically changed. Tubes became a priority and with each new piece of gear, my experience became more defined and my journey more focused. I eventually heard an SET amp and it was such a revelation, my path was finally set (pun?) and the need for efficiency led me to the Klipschorn (again) and to this forum.

Budget v. Time... In my experience, this is an inverse relationship. Unless you get lucky and find someone willing to sell you their carefully matched system, you'll have to spend more time looking and listening to gear that fits into your system and budget. My only tip...don't be in a hurry.

Unless I'm looking for the latest technology (as in DACs or network players) or gear with a somewhat short lifespan (like phono carts), I always look to buy used as its the absolute best way to stretch the budget. You also have to consider that just because a particular piece of gear works on paper, has good reviews and even sounds great in someone else's system, doesn't mean that its a good match in yours. You will not be satisfied with every piece of gear you listen to in your system and you wont forfeit nearly as much money re-selling a used piece of gear as opposed to new.

P>I want the music to sound as real as possible but the illusion that someone wants to create from their system is personal and no two people hear the same thing. Given that it is physically impossible to recreate an auditorium or stadium event through any audio system in any listening room, that most venues' PA systems are far cruder and much less refined than the average home audio system (unless you like listening to your music at ear-splitting levels with buckets of distortion) and that few systems within anyone's budget can actually create the illusion of realism, there is no simple answer. Everyone perceives music differently and even with the most sophisticated gear, the illusion tends to be a moving target. I attend a lot of live music events and have found that a decent SET/horn setup offers the most realistic reproduction of such things as voices, acoustic guitar and horns to me and I am quite satisfied with its 'you-are-there' illusion of jazz combos, chamber music and even most well-recorded studio albums but full orchestras and rock concerts are not nearly as convincing.

And while SET works for me, I would never presume that its everyone's cup o' tea. Besides, setting up a tube system is difficult at best and SET can be a real PITA. One of my highest priorities is noise - tube hiss and background hum (mechanical or electrical) are intolerable and inexcusable in my book. Other than lights and tubes aglow, I don't want any other indication that a system is on - I especially don't want to hear it as I feel that even the slightest hiss and hum will mask low-level detail and take away from the listening experience and ruin the illusion. This was not an easy hurdle for me and required quite a bit of mixing and matching. I had to replace gear even when the specs suggested a good fit and I'm still bothered that if the room is quiet and my system is turned up to 50% or so, I can detect a slight hiss if I put my head inside the horn but then that gives me something to work for.

To most folks outside if the Klipsch forum (maybe even here), horns are pretty cumbersome and not terribly attractive and all but the most refined tube amps tend toward a utilitarian, even industrial look. I personally like the simple, utilitarian look.

You can try to minimize buying and selling gear but that's a bit counter-productive and takes some of the fun away from this hobby. You may get lucky and find exactly what you're looking for on the first try but that's highly unlikely. Its simple math, the more gear you listen to, the more experience and knowledge you'll garner, you're listening skills will become more refined and your future selections will be more informed. If you're just starting out, I'd suggest you research and buy as nice an used integrated amp and the best pair of speakers that'll fit into your room and compliment the amp. Versatility is key in that you want an amp/speaker setup that can accommodate many types of gear. Klipsch speakers are good example because their efficiency allows them to handle most any power amp from low-watt SET to 1000w behemoths. You can start by plugging in fairly inexpensive TT's and CDP's and work your way up from there. I'd definitely suggest that you listen to as many systems as possible so you can get a feel for what you like before you start spending your own money. Unfortunately, I don't live in the same neighborhood with a lot of fellow audio enthusiasts and there are precious few audio stores left so I had to buy a lot of gear sight unheard. The net is a tremendous resource and you'll have to bone up on your research skills in order to do your search justice. Reading reviews and following posts by more experienced folks that share your audio interests and are further along the curve than you can be very helpful.

Sorry for the long post and I hope I addressed everything. If I had to be more concise... Ask a lot of questions and research before you shop, be versatile and don't be in any hurry, and if you need a push, buy a Scott 222/299 integrated amp and whichever heritage horns that fit your room - Heresy, Cornwall or Khorn...that's a good starting point. Have fun!