for MWM fanatics

[mark1101]

I wouldn't spend any less on an active crossover. It is the heart of the system and should have a SERIOUS budget actually............not a cheap one. I have a Behringer 2496dcx for about $250.00.............and the sound sucks compared to what I have now. In fact, I went back to passives when I tried that crossover as an initial delve into "active". The passives sounded better.

What will you do when you build your active system and it really doesn't sound that "sharp" or detailed? You will either figure out you cheaped out on the most important part other than the preamp..........or you'll abandon the idea and go back to passives. Don't cheap out on the crossover or you will regret it. Speaking from experience and just trying to help.

As far as the reflector............PWK didn't put one in there, why would you? Do you think it will sound better? Don't you think he tried that and figured out it didn't matter?

If I had to call what my next best purchase would be it would be the DBX Driverack 4800 crossover. I don't beleive I could make my system sound significantly better without improving the digital processing further. That would be the next thing for me to do. The Ashly is really good, but there is way better. I have seen the 4800 for around $3,700 new, first quality. Cheaper B stock and used.

[kg4guy]

Thanks that is a very good point in fact I've been down that road before just wanted to make sure with active crossovers. I talked to HDBRbuilder on the phone years ago about building the La scalas and putting the wings on the insides to cut down on vibration and he said that the only reason Klipsch didn't do it was because of the extra labor it would take to install them so to answer your question does it make a big difference I'm not sure I have built almost a dozen pair of La scalas and have never put any braces in however the Peavey FH-1 cabinets that I have seem to sound alittle better and it has the wings but it is a different design in that the measurements of the cabinet are different than the La scalas?

[moray james]

You can always do a knock up with high density Styrofoam or cardboard to see what you think. A little glue a little listening time. Best regards Moray James.

[ClaudeJ1]

I am using an Ashly Protea 4.8Sp active crossover. Love it to death.

As far as the sub and a DTS-10..........yes it would go lower for sure, but even Danley recommends against that sub for music. That is a HT sub and I don't need the bloating and more filtering to make it perform right. The Titans are excellent and have matching timber to the MWMs. No EQ required. In fact I can shut off the MWMs and use only the Titans to 300Hz if I want. I've tried that. However, the MWMs have a slightly sweeter sound than the Titans. I am using the Titans in the weakest part of their envelope but they are still effective in my system and room. Good clean punch, and so it's a 100% horn loaded MCM-3.

The MWM sounds nothing like a lascala in my opinion. I have a pair on the opposite wall and I play them regularly. The Lascala always sounded good to me but when you listen A/B with the MWM you here the big spike at around 150hz on the Lascala that becomes noticable. The MWMs are smoooooooth. Very smooth. I am using K33 woofers. Per Roy D. they give more energy down around 40Hz where the MWM horn needs it, as opposed to the K43 being strong around 140hz and handling high power better. The K33s have worked out very well for me, and although I'm using over 500 watts on the bass cabinets, I never worry about breaking anything and haven't yet.

My reference to a "Big LaScala" had more to do with a W bin design commonality and NOT the sound. Although I find the LaScala to have greater clarity then even the Khorn on the upper bass bacause it's two folds also and not three. I'm a fan of straight axis horns and my next bass horn will be the LAB horn. If that doesn't outperform the Khorn AND the MWMs I had, I will go back to an MWMs for sure. I miss it already.

[ClaudeJ1]

As far as the reflector............PWK didn't put one in there, why would you? Do you think it will sound better? Don't you think he tried that and figured out it didn't matter?

You are 100% correct abou this. I talked to Gary Gillum, former chief engineer at Klipsch and Associates, whose name is on the MWM patent.

He told me the MWM was developed for the K33 (we talked about this as we purchased our MWMs at about the same time, remember?) and that they tried the reflector and it didn't make a bit of difference in the measurements or listening tests, so they left it out. So it's a waste of time to put one in.

[ClaudeJ1]

You can always do a knock up with high density Styrofoam or cardboard to see what you think. A little glue a little listening time. Best regards Moray James.

Waste of time. See my other post.

[ClaudeJ1]

Thanks that is a very good point in fact I've been down that road before just wanted to make sure with active crossovers. I talked to HDBRbuilder on the phone years ago about building the La scalas and putting the wings on the insides to cut down on vibration and he said that the only reason Klipsch didn't do it was because of the extra labor it would take to install them so to answer your question does it make a big difference I'm not sure I have built almost a dozen pair of La scalas and have never put any braces in however the Peavey FH-1 cabinets that I have seem to sound alittle better and it has the wings but it is a different design in that the measurements of the cabinet are different than the La scalas?

The first version was called the SP-1 (2-way without braces) before they split it into the FH-1 and MF1-X and added braces to the FH-1 and the SP-1 Mk III. Apparently Peavey engineers discovered it tested better with them, otherwise, why add the extra lumber and labor?

[kg4guy]

As far as the reflector............PWK didn't put one in there, why would you? Do you think it will sound better? Don't you think he tried that and figured out it didn't matter?

You are 100% correct abou this. I talked to Gary Gillum, former chief engineer at Klipsch and Associates, whose name is on the MWM patent.

He told me the MWM was developed for the K33 (we talked about this as we purchased our MWMs at about the same time, remember?) and that they tried the reflector and it didn't make a bit of difference in the measurements or listening tests, so they left it out. So it's a waste of time to put one in.

Cool thanks for the info Claude.

[ClaudeJ1]

The MWMs are smoooooooth. Very smooth. I am using K33 woofers. Per Roy D. they give more energy down around 40Hz where the MWM horn needs it, as opposed to the K43 being strong around 140hz and handling high power better. The K33s have worked out very well for me, and although I'm using over 500 watts on the bass cabinets, I never worry about breaking anything and haven't yet.

After some exhaustive listening tests last night with a speaker designer friend with good ears, his conclusion is the same as mine. The MWM woofer section I had sounded better than the Korner horn (which has K33's in it). Tighter, much more defined bass in the same room corners.......I will get another pair if the LAB horns don't pan out and the Khorn bass is a temporary solution right now.

So, Mark, I want to know about your Midbass horn. PWK has always said that "the midrange is where we live, and we spent more R&D on the midrange than the bass." When I look at your plots, I see you are crosssing from 300-800 Hz. on your system with Roy's new midbass horns. I believe this is where most of the musical information lies.....piano, vocals, sax, etc. and adding STRAIGHT AXIS midbass horn to my stack was the best thing I ever did to improme clarity and ambience.

So how do YOURS sound, now that you have added them in between the MWMs and the K402's?

[mikebse2a3]

Hey Claude......I've sent you e-mail and pm...have you received either?

Thanks,

mike tn

[kg4guy]

I wouldn't spend any less on an active crossover. It is the heart of the system and should have a SERIOUS budget actually............not a cheap one. I have a Behringer 2496dcx for about $250.00.............and the sound sucks compared to what I have now. In fact, I went back to passives when I tried that crossover as an initial delve into "active". The passives sounded better.

What will you do when you build your active system and it really doesn't sound that "sharp" or detailed? You will either figure out you cheaped out on the most important part other than the preamp..........or you'll abandon the idea and go back to passives. Don't cheap out on the crossover or you will regret it. Speaking from experience and just trying to help.

As far as the reflector............PWK didn't put one in there, why would you? Do you think it will sound better? Don't you think he tried that and figured out it didn't matter?

If I had to call what my next best purchase would be it would be the DBX Driverack 4800 crossover. I don't beleive I could make my system sound significantly better without improving the digital processing further. That would be the next thing for me to do. The Ashly is really good, but there is way better. I have seen the 4800 for around $3,700 new, first quality. Cheaper B stock and used.

What do you think of the DBX driverack 260?

[mark1101]

Claude, The MCM system I have now, which is 4-way, sounds better to me than when it was 3-way, or 2-way. Incrementally better, more optimized. Just my opinion of course. I have never had such separation of instruments and vocals jumping out at you as I do now. You can follow a bass line so effortlessly, it's just right there for you on every song...........and just the right amount of punch..........just like in a large sound reinforcement system, which was my goal to replicate. Concerts at home that sound like concerts.

I know there is a lot better out there than what I have, but I'm happy as heck with the MCM-3 system plus those Titan 48 subs.

For instance this weekend I streamed Bonnaroo Music festival and had 2 systems running it. Cornwalls outdoors, and MCM-3 plus subs indoors. The cornwalls have expensive ALK networks in them and the tweeters and mid drivers have been reworked by Crites. They are very good sounding cornwalls. I am driving them with a Peach with expensive tubes, and a McIntosh MC-250 reworked by DeWick. Sounds great. Everything working as it should. Still, as nice a little system as that is.............it sounds like a clock radio once you step in the house and hear the big MCM Grand. Just no comparison. A whole other league. When I play my lascalas, same deal. Just sound like little speakers, and they have some goodies on them as well. A very nice pair. But not in the same ballgame.

I have to say when I was running 2-way with just the 402 and MWMs that was a big improvement from Khorns and other Heritage I have. But when I added the midbass modules..........that was another incremental improvement. Same with the subs...........even better. So I like the 4-way best, and setup with Klipsch engineered settings.

I know there are a lot of 2-way fans............those systems can sound excellent as well obviously. It's just what each of us prefers.

I also found that after a lot of experimenting, coming back to Roy Delgado's engineered solution has satisifed me the most. I have not made an adjustment to my system in many months. I just listen to it. I don't think there is anything more I can do to the speakers or processor to make it sound significantly better. I could change the EQ on the 402 slightly.........that's about it. That was the biggest challenge to get right...........and that's where Roy's help was invaluable.

[mark1101]

We use a DBX 260 at our church.............and I run the board and the setup. I like the sound of that processor, and at church, since it is live sound (5 piece band), we use a lot more features than I do at home. For instance, we use the compression and limitors, and the auto EQ (which I don't really like). We use the feedback suppression too. I don't use any of this on teh Ashly processor at home. I only use the crossover, delays, parametric EQ, and gains No limiting.

I like that the DBX has both parametric and graphical EQ. Very helpful. I wish the Ashly had both.

I couldn't use a DBX-260 at home though because it does not have enough parametric EQ settings per channel to implement the Klipsch EQ settings for the K402 horn. So it was not a choice for me.

But a good sounding processor. I hope someday to have the bigger DBX unit, or something like it.

The only thing I lack on the Ashly that I would use is a graphical EQ for the room. It's very difficult to use a parametric EQ for the room. At least that is what I found out. I use it, but it was a lot of trial and error. Of course I'd like to step up to the latest A/D - D/A chips. That alone motivates me to want a better unit at some point.

[kg4guy]

Thanks that is good info I plan to use my JBL 2360A horns and I have 2445J drivers or EV DH1A drivers that I will use with the 2360A horns. I'm going to start the build tomorrow.

[ClaudeJ1]

Thanks that is good info I plan to use my JBL 2360A horns and I have 2445J drivers or EV DH1A drivers that I will use with the 2360A horns. I'm going to start the build tomorrow.

I measured a response on the DH1A's (6 ohm) similar to and a bit better than my JBL 2446J's (but I needed the 16 ohm impedance). You will more than likely prefer the DH1A's since they rival the 2446 JBL, which is better than a 2445..............depends on what you use as a crossover, your setup, and your taste.

[kg4guy]

Well got part of the MWM done today still have to round out the woofer slot but most of the difficult pieces are cut .

[kg4guy]

Front

[dtel]

[] Glad to see that, can't wait to hear what you think of them, but I know it will be a while.

I don't know how your going to finish them but it's a lot of square feet to cover. I used Red Oak and a mixed stain to match other stuff in the room then just oiled them.

I built 4 bins, that is alot of staining and then oiling, all sides including the inside [] I thought it was never going to end.

One or two tips

On the piece where the speaker bolts, back up behind the hurricane nuts so they can't back out later when trying to screw in the bolt to mount the driver. this is VERY important you CAN NOT get to this later if you push out a t-nut. SEE PIC

If possible put the back panel on last, stain or paint or whatever your going to do to the inside then put on the back. It's very hard to get in there once the back is on. Just be sure to not paint or stain the edge where it will be glued.

[kg4guy]

Thanks for the info I think I'm going to poly the entire cabinet inside and out so it seals it good also looking at a few Tuba 30 subs anyone know anything about these? Also would these woofers work in the MWM ? ELECTRO-VOICE DL-15 ST

[dtel]

I don't know but someone probably will.

I used 4 of Bob's cast frame woofers.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Replacement-Woofer-Klipsch-Khorn-Cornwall-Belle-Pair-/370517730652?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item564493e55c