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Denon poa5200 vs. 4802 power supply


Seb

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guys, I'm in need of your expert advice to compare some Denon stuff. I am no technical expert, and the following puzzles me.

Here are the specs for the POA-5200 2-channel amplifier:

120W, 8ohm, 20-20,000Hz, 0.02%THD

200W, 4ohm, 1KHz, 0.5%THD

already, pretty confusing, since basically you cannot directly compare both values, due to the different freq response figures and THD figures.

Here are the specs for the AVR-4802 receiver:

125W, 8ohm, 20-20,000Hz, 0.05%THD

150W, 6ohm, 20-20,000Hz, 0.05%THD

much better figures, as you can compare them together, however, no 4ohm rating, so you cannot compare with the POA-5200 figures... Manufacturers should really get their stuff straight, I mean, we're talking about two products from the same company with two different methods of measurements...

now, my question is, is there a way to determine which amplifier is better, the POA-5200, or the AVR-4802's amp section.

seems to me the 4802's ratings are a bit more honest, which would tend to give it an edge. for example, the 3802, with its relatively inferior amp section, is rated similarly to the POA-5200, with a 6ohm rating and a higher THD for the 6ohm rating. however, the 5803 is also rated that way, with the exception that the THD figure stays the same.

since I'm no technical expert, and don't fully master the rules surrounding those ratings, I would like somebody more knowledgeable to tell me whether those figures can be compared, using some kind of relationship to extrapolate similar ratings, and if it is possible, to tell me which amplifier section is better.

the 4802 seems to be using high-quality toroidal transformers, which, as far as I can tell from what I've gleaned up to now, seems to be a good indication of a high-quality amp design. I don't know what the insides of the POA-5200 look like, but I know that its price isn't cheap, that it uses two separate amplifiers for both channels, and that as a standalone amp, it should be expected to perform adequately, at least as well as the 4802's internal amplifier... no?

anyways, thanks in advance for the help guys!

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This message has been edited by Seb on 04-26-2002 at 12:43 AM

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Didn't reread the post Seb,but just to give it a bump and a quick response: I would never compare the amp sections of any receiver and a stand alone power amp.

That said,the 4802 should drive ANY Klipsch nicely. That's about as much money as I would personally spend on an A/V receiver before spending more on good separates. Still the 4802 gives lots for the price.

Wish I had one! Good luck dude.

Keith

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seb, is this just an academic ? or are you thinking seperates as in a sep preamp w/ the poa & other amps, or the poa w/ the 4802? if it's the later i'd say don't bother. that doesn't meet my marginal benefit vs marginal cost criteria. jmo.

cwm4.gif

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This message has been edited by boa12 on 04-27-2002 at 01:03 AM

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no, I was rather considering something like a 3802, or even 2802, with the POA-5200, or the 4802.

given that the 4802 has other benefits (like adjustable xover), if the amp sections are comparable, it wouldn't be worth it.

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"given that the 4802 has other benefits (like adjustable xover), if the amp sections are comparable, it wouldn't be worth it."

yea that's what i'm thinking too. you probably wouldn't hear much dif if any w/ the 4802, probably same w/ 3802 also. but if you move to 6.1+, you might want to look at a good 2 or 3 channel amp.

though i'd look for something min. 200W X 2/3 @ 8ohms &

double or min 350W @ 4 ohms all channels driven, 20-20khz. also damping factor of 450 or more. good thd figures. acurus amps i believe meet that criteria. jmo.

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This message has been edited by boa12 on 04-27-2002 at 01:04 PM

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where can i find more info on Acurus amps?

I have seen them discussed everywhere, but can't find an official website here...

Also, are they still in production?

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This message has been edited by Seb on 04-27-2002 at 03:06 PM

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seb, funny i was just looking. klipsch/mondial took them off their site under audio, but i recall adam @ mondial saying at sometime they plan on having a classics section for acurus sometime in the future.

the entire acurus name/line has been discontinued. but

you can regularly find acurus amps (& the act-3 pre/pro) at www.audiogon.com classifieds. that's where i sold my acurus 200five for $960 including cod shipping.

that may be a sweet option for you. you could get a like newer acurus act-3 abm & a 200Five amp for under $2k total. then in the next few months mondial is offering an upgrade to the act-3 for another $900.

so for under $3k you could have the latest & greatest (pretty much) pre/pro w/ new dacs, dsp, features, etc.

just a thought.

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yea meant to amend that official 4 ohm rating. i believe adam said it was actually more like 350W, 20-20khz. you might wanna read up under the acurus section here &/or call adam at mondial. he's a real helpful dude like trey, matt, steve are for klipsch.

& ubid did have some act-3 abm new/warranty just recently that sold well under us$1k. sold now but u may wanna keep an eye there if the act is of interest.

but yea, even 300W 4ohms is sufficient imo w/ it being

20-20khz, all channels driven, & they have a damping factor over 500 per adam.

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Well at least you got a few comments,huh?

A while back Seb(after the Acurus line announcement)I was calling around for someone here looking for an Acurus and ran across a dealer that had 2 each of the ACTIII ABM w/an Acurus 125FIVE for $1299 for the combo,new of course.If you go that route you might check around.Might find a deal.

Good luck.

Keith

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Oh & yea should said talktokeith. sorry keith. Wink.gif keith the 1 who really turned me on to acurus amps.

beyond the specs i can testify that acurus makes great sounding amps & built like a tank. run relatively very cool (huge side sinks/fins). ati also great for money but still the acurus are best value now imho. kinda like klipsch for speaks, funny how they got together. Biggrin.gif

i never woulda let mine go but got good offer, & wanted

to get the b&k 7270 to go w/ the b&k ref 30 & replace that monoblock for the 6th channel which i didin't really have the space for anyway.

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thanks guys.

however, going the fully separate route might be difficult for me.

so what about using a 3802 and the A200x3 for the front three channels, using the receiver's amp to drive the 4 rears?

the only problem would be the lack of a properly adjustable xover, but I think I could live with that, given I'm only going for RF-3IIs for now.

good idea, or will the preamp section and/or int's interference with the receiver's amp section be a bad match quality wise to the Acurus? IOW, would I gain more from upgrading the preamp side of things than the amp side of things?

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Seb, I have a 3801 and an Acurus 125Five amp,and also a 100X3 Acurus.Like boa said they run cool.After 2 DVD's the 125X5 is still room temp.I like the combo although I can't give you a comparo as I've never used the 3801 amplification.

My interest in the Denon was preamp use only and the features that I wanted,it offered.I'm not sure I could tell you that with the speakers you want,the added amp cost would be worth the expenditure.

The only help I can give you would be that if you believe that there is a difference in sound character in receivers and/or power amps,then you should study and decide which brand might compliment your particular speakers.Not to start a barroom brawl,but if you can imagine that some power amps will provide better low end than others,then that would affect the overall sound it gives.

I would say that the Acurus amps provide good low end and offer great clarity with a sweet smoothness than is hard to describe.IOW ,it seems to aid the hi's of my Synergy Premiere speakers that sound to have a slightly rooled off hi end.And that was exactly what I wanted.

I try to never offer my most personal earpinions, but there you go.

Hope this helps.

Keith

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And one or two more thoughts Seb.I would not recommend a 3-channel amp. Decide if you ultimately want 5.1/6.1/7.1 or whatever, and do the math.I would buy a 5-channel amp and add a two channel amp later,if needed,or use one or two of the receiver's amps.

Better yet,buy a 2802 if it offers the processing features you want and add the Outlaw piece that boa can tell you about and cut those suckers low.If the 90 watts or so in the 2802 don't make you happy,add power amps later.

Bye

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yea seb if you're interested it's the outlaw icbm for about us$250 www.outlawaudio.com thing is you need power ins to do it but if u got a power amp it works between that & the preouts.

works on up to 6.1 channels. cross steps are for each channel but only in increments of 40hz, 60hz, 80hz...

still better than nothing imo. 60hz probably best w/ like rf-3. also those can duties probably make it more expensive, but maybe there's something else like it from can by now.

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thank you for the great advice guys.

ttk, you say not to buy a 3-channel amp... why? is it because of some technical reason, or is it simply because you believe I should amplify all my channels separately? I'm thinking a 3-channel amp is enough, as I don't believe separate amplification beyond that of a receiver is needed for the rear channels. add to that the fact that I am still going to be using relatively cheap speakers in the back (for a while), and you have a definite case of diminishing returns on investment for the rear.

or is my thinking flawed in any way?

spending the $400 CAN it would probably cost me for the icbm doesn't seem like very efficient spending to me for now, as I will be using RF-3IIs, which don't need to be cut super low, and a good subwoofer (or two, depending on whether one PW-2200 is enough for the bigger room downstairs), and I have so many more things to spend money on before, like a better receiver, amplification, additional subwoofing, etc. it will be a definite must-buy once I graduate to RF-7s or Heritage, in a couple years maybe.

so for now, I am thinking a 2802 or 3802 with a good 3-channel amp would be enough to keep company to my RF-3IIs, then it's on to upgrade the rear soundstage, and then either separate amplification, additional sub, and the icbm.

you guys have been real helpful, keep it coming if you feel I'm missing something!

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seb the 2802 is probably all you need w/ a fine power amp but even w/ the 3802 i think you'll hear an improvement w/ a good power amp to whatever channels.

i have rf-3 in the backroom w/ both a marantz sr8000 & my vintage kenwood kr9600 stereo receiver a/b switched w/ a russound box (again thanks to a keith tip). the marantz is no slouch especially for stereo (100WX5 capability, 100WX2 stereo). but this ken from days gone by (got it in '75) is a monster w/ 165WX2 & dual power supply.

w/ the rf-3 i can hear a definite dif going to the ken beast. tighter, more defined & harder hitting bass. & w/ the added power it doesn't drain any from the mids/highs. even at lower volumes better bass.

of course this is w/ the rf-3 runnin full range but even cut at 80hz you should still hear some improvement, but not as much. because of that i'd lean more toward a lower power receiver & a 200W X five channel amp.

i think that's what's keith's sayin is the marginal cost of a 5 vs a 3 isn't enough to really justify a 3, & you can make a trade off w/ the receiver since that's just a pre/pro w/ 5 channels. & then you could use it's amp for future expansion to 6.1.

so i'd lean toward either the 2802 & something like the acurus 200five, or if you do it for under us$1500, an act-3 abm & acurus 200five.

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It's pretty tough to look at amp specs and tell anything about how it sounds. The damping factor is one that you can look at; the higher the better. I've been told that anything above about 450 is not helping much. I've been able to hear the difference between an amp with a damping factor of 100 vs. one with 800. Large differences like that may be required for it to be audible. I also look for an amp that doesn't have too low a distortion rating. You get that by using lots of feedback. Since feedback comes from the end of the circuit and is reinjected at the beginning of the circuit, there MAY be some time smearing that occurs. Some think any feedback is a bad thing. I believe in moderation.

All that said, you just have to listen to the combination to see how it works.

I have a low opinion of adding good amps to poor reciever preamps. If you want more power, buy a bigger receiver. Don't add a good amp to a cheap receiver preamp section and expect good sound. It'll never sound better than the cheap preamp section. Buy a better receiver. If you want better sound than you think you can get with a receiver, you've got to go with a good amp and a seperate pre/pro.

John

This message has been edited by John Albright on 04-28-2002 at 03:16 PM

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