why the Heritage line has faded?

[dtel]

What year is the car you drive? Lol but seriously I feel like the RF series is something that meets all your "old school" criteria. I have not owned them for long but just seems like they should last forever. The drivers are stiff and the cabinet seems well built. I don't think your "old schol" title applies to heritage only. I men my brother-in-law has an old set of kenwoods he bought 20 years ago and they don't have a scratch on them. Anything that is well cared for should last well beyond it's intended life.

I agree the build quality of the RF's are as good as heritage. IMO But the style is not Old School......yet

I just like the heritage style and sound, and love the pro sound, but to not be completely one sided we do have (a) set of Rf's, RB-75's. [Y]

[Rivernuggets]

Great thread, though it has a dark-cloud quality. We (and our setups) are good advertising for Klipsch. I'm sure most here do this already, but do your best to educate the people around you. Demo your setup! I've helped many locate and purchase Klipsch. Yes most of it has been the used, but who knows where it may go from there.

The past few aquaintences (new to our house) passing through have used the word 'audiophile' when they see my Chorus IIs sitting there. I dispell that best I can and move on into music conversation. We're all music lovers in some way. Let's start there.

[dtel]

We're all music lovers in some way. Let's start there.

[Y]

Your right, it's 95% of the reason I like this hobby, listen to music every day for hours, I doub't we watch 1 movie a week.

[Groomlakearea51]

If the foam surround is rotting out of your speakers then perhaps the environment your speakers are in is not ideal. Lol

That's what you would think but it's not true.

Some are just made out of material that does not last. I have some baby Advent ll speakers, at about 8-10 years the foam was gone, I re foamed, in the last bunch of years they may have 5 hours of playing time on them and I would bet If I pull off the grill the foam is gone again. Nice little sounding speakers but the foam just sucks.

The foam/cheap rubber product surround problem was what just about did JBL in..... The 4xxx and Lxxx series were notorious for that problem which began to surface in the early 1990's. The worst, or most notorious.... were the the Bose 901's (starting with Series-III which used foam) which was finally corrected with the latest versions of the Series VI 901's. A number of audio companies learned the hard way about surround material quality.

A JBL engineer told me back in 2001 (when my 4313 woofers and midrange surrounds came apart...) that it was combination of temperature, humidity, and in Florida there is a microbe that "eats" binder in reel tape, and eats something in the foam surrounds that no-one knew about. Harmless, but the residue looked like dried out cottage cheese.... Reel tape could be cured by baking it which would re-attach the binder to the oxide, but usually with horrible results to the sound quality. No cure for foam surrounds on woofers though.

Fortunately the old 4311's and 4312's used a flexible resin impregnated accordion cloth (like Klipsch...) so they have survived.....

[H]

[DizRotus]

Many here have commented on the difficulty involved with auditioning Klipsch Heritage. Young people are not easily exposed to "old School" Klipsch Heritage products.

dtel wrote:

"Also where can [the younger crowd] actually hear Heritage at, someones parents house just by chance with music they wouldn't care to listen to ?"

cornfedksboy wrote:

'"Old School" is not a bad term. It's an endearing term to some of the great things that everyone used to want."

mustang guy wrote:

"When it comes to large spaces, the La Scala not only fills them, but does it accurately. As many of you know, I run six La Scalas in my 50,000 cu ft shop. I was at my son's graduation the other day and couldn't hear the garbled commencement speaches because of crappy PA speakers. Oh how I wish they had anything remotely as good as a La Scala hanging up there!"mark1101 wrote:Klipsch should do a marketing campaign on "going old school"..............that's what the kids are calling........having big old speakers now.

mark1101 wrote:

"Klipsch should do a marketing campaign on "going old school"..............that's what the kids are calling........having big old speakers now."

It is precisely for those reasons that I performed a labor of love to refurbish a pair of La Scalas that had hung in an Ohio bar for decades, when the young band director at our son's high school asked for help replacing a Sony boombox in the band practice room (see link below). Another band parent had suggested a Bose surround sound system for $4,500.

When the director told me his budget, I replied, "We can make their ears bleed for $2,500." With a pair of abused La Scalas purchased from Michael Colter, new parts from Bob Crites, an H/K 730 from eBay, a Toshiba DVD/CD player and hours of work we were able to fill that large space with loud and clear music.The hope is that the young musicians exposed to the Klipsch Heritage sound will realize the limitations of earbuds and Bose cubes.

See:

Ported La Scalas Photos and Review http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/76770/757339.aspx#757339

[Quiet_Hollow]

Here is my 2 cents on why the Heritage line has faded.

Faded?? I guess I never got that that memo. Really good things are always hard to find, even when they're right under your nose.

Lot's of broad generalizations going on in this thread. Interesting.

[chisoxpurdue]

I have a few things to say on this topic (from another 24 yo).

First things first, I think the Heritage line is doing fine. I am biased because I do have a dealer near me that caries the full heritage line and allows you to demo anytime. I also know a number of people who have bought new Heritage products.

Second, I have not bought any new Heritage products. I have bought used, but at 24, I feel I do have time to eventually buy new.

Third, I am glad Klipsch makes other products. As I cannot yet afford new Heritage, I can support Klipsch in other ways. I have bought my GF the iPod boom box. I also have bought more than a few new pairs of headphones. I have steered friends to the lower lines of Klipsch as well. The other lines allow them to get their foot in the door. Everyone loves the sound of my systems.

Demoing speakers next to each other is a tricky proposition. I have seen twice personally that Simply Stereo lost immediate sales because of the demo ability. Someone came in with cash in hand to by Heresys. Being able to hear the Cornwalls and back to the Heresys was a mistake. That sale was lost for a while. The sale said they could not justify the sale when something sounds that much better. They said that when the money came around, they would come back for the Cornwalls. But we all know money can be needed for other things. I do not know if those people came back.

Final thought for now, music today does not push for high quality speakers. Klipsch heritage have great dynamic range. Music today does not as it is so highly compressed. This is where I think some people in other forums call Klipsch Fatiguing. If people are listening to much of newer music, I could find the listening experience fatiguing. It is wrongly attributed to the speakers. Music is mixed for the lowest common denominator of radio now. This mean crapy car audio, or boom boxes, or crappy speakers. So it is compressed to be louder and such. It does not need quality speaker to reproduce, and the quality components show flaws in the music, or the electronics. This is then attributed to the speakers.

[Heritage_Head]

Here is my 2 cents on why the Heritage line has faded.

Faded?? I guess I never got that that memo. Really good things are always hard to find, even when they're right under your nose.

Lot's of broad generalizations going on in this thread. Interesting.

They used to be in
every klipsch dealer (store), now you have to get on plane to even see them for
most people. I would say that’s fading. Most of my favorite music is from the
70s, and I only wish it had sound quality as good as a lot of today’s music. They
have been using compressors for music forever. They had to or they would never
fit it on a tiny record. Not to get into record vs cd debate (is there really
one) but cds destroy a record in size, information, and sound quality to 99% of
the world. I see Heritage speakers very similar as records in that people hang
on to what they love and there’s nothing wrong with that. I just think like
with power steering in cars or cds for music people just moved on. If you have ever seen the movie other people’s
money he talks about the company’s that used to sell buggies whips (for the
horses). And he said “I bet the company that made the best buggies whips out
lasted every other company”

[Islander]

Not to get into record vs cd debate (is there really one) but cds destroy a record in size, information, and sound quality to 99% of the world. I see Heritage speakers very similar as records in that people hang on to what they love and there’s nothing wrong with that. I just think like with power steering in cars or cds for music people just moved on. If you have ever seen the movie other people’s money he talks about the company’s that used to sell buggies whips (for the horses). And he said “I bet the company that made the best buggies whips out lasted every other company”

1: Apparently, you've never heard a good LP played on a really good turntable through a good system. It's true that cheap CD players are way better than cheap turntables and cartridges, but once you get into the better equipment, the LPs definitely sound more like real music.

2: Buggy whips went out of use when horse-drawn buggies went out of use. On the other hand, people still listen to music, so they still need speakers to listen to it, because earphones are only useful some of the time.

[cornfedksboy]

I know this doesn't hold true for most, but I can actually demo the full range of Heritage easier than I can Reference speakers here in Kansas. It's 30 minutes to a high end audiophile boutique. From Klipsch, they only carry the Heritage and Palladium lines, and you can demo the Heresey, Cornwall, and LaScalla (I've not seen the K-Horns). There's a stereo store near by as well. You can demo the RF-42 and RF-52 as well as some bookshelves. RF-62, 82, and 7...well, those are over an hour in the other direction and I've not seen the RF-7s up for demo.

I guess my point is that if I want a mass-marketed HT system (which is what I have), then you go to the Home Theater store or "Stereo" store. If you want the high quality items, well you've got to find a specialized dealer. They're going to carry the Heritage line...problem is, there just aren't many around...which brings us back to why?

[tragusa3]

Islander, where might you point me to start my research on buying a quality record player? I've got the system together and haven't heard LP in 20 years. I'd enjoy having some fun with that!

[JasonJCarney]

Your definition of "better" needs to be explained. An LP can never have the clarity of an sa-cd. That doesn't mean that the sound of an LP is poor.... It has it's own sound. It's kinda close minded to act like everything from "yester-year" is superior. Some people like live music some like LP's and some like clean studio recorded sound. Doesn't make 1 better or worse. But as far as clarity of intended sound is concerned there is no comparison.

[dtel]

I have to ask, Jason are you a cop ?

You sure look like one if that is a pic of you, been wanting to ask that, whenever I see that avatar.

[Heritage_Head]

Not to get into record vs cd debate (is there really one) but cds destroy a record in size, information, and sound quality to 99% of the world. I see Heritage speakers very similar as records in that people hang on to what they love and there’s nothing wrong with that. I just think like with power steering in cars or cds for music people just moved on. If you have ever seen the movie other people’s money he talks about the company’s that used to sell buggies whips (for the horses). And he said “I bet the company that made the best buggies whips out lasted every other company”

1: Apparently, you've never heard a good LP played on a really good turntable through a good system. It's true that cheap CD players are way better than cheap turntables and cartridges, but once you get into the better equipment, the LPs definitely sound more like real music.

2: Buggy whips went out of use when horse-drawn buggies went out of use. On the other hand, people still listen to music, so they still need speakers to listen to it, because earphones are only useful some of the time.

I have heard many high end lp players. My dad is who got me

into all this when I was a kid. His brother was an electronic engineer who had

a job in this (not sure of job title but he had as much stuff as a local small

hi fi store. He had the speakerlab k

horns in his main set up (very close to klipschs khorn) (I have two pair of speakerlabs

I got from him in storage great speakers). They both had very hi end turntables

and horn speakers. They got so into it they had different cartridges for certain

types of music. (Very expensive) It

sounded amazing and is probably what got me hooked so many years ago. They both have cd players now and there

records and players are in boxes. I almost did put that the buggie whip companies

are gone now and music isn’t but I thought everyone would get that part. I just

meant that like speakerlab who is pretty much just a retail store now because those

types of speakers don’t keep the lights on. But klipsch is still going strong

and is able to still offer those types of speakers. Imo if it wasn’t for the

new age klipsch line speakers they (Heritage) wouldn’t be available. Let’s put

it another way that maybe we can all agree on, if all klipsch was able to offer

was Heritage speakers would they go out of business? My guess is absolutely. And I think that hits my main point more than

anything.

[Heritage_Head]

A $100 cd player is very close to a $5,000 one in sound quality.

The main reason is the technology is so good that most people (99%) won’t hear the

upgrade (I can’t and I have pretty good audio ears). When I hear someone say

that an LP sounds more like real music i kind of know I’m probably beating a

dead horse at this point. Nothing wrong with likening one over the other for

personal taste but one is far superior to the other.

[Islander]

Your definition of "better" needs to be explained. An LP can never have the clarity of an sa-cd. That doesn't mean that the sound of an LP is poor.... It has it's own sound. It's kinda close minded to act like everything from "yester-year" is superior. Some people like live music some like LP's and some like clean studio recorded sound. Doesn't make 1 better or worse. But as far as clarity of intended sound is concerned there is no comparison.

No, I don't believe all the old stuff is better than all the new stuff. Most new stuff is better. My 2010 Technics turntable sounds a lot better than my 1978 Technics turntable, even though I'm using the mat, headshell and cartridge from the 1978. As well, that 2005 cartridge sounds better than the 1970s cartridge I used to listen to.

Better how? More detail and clarity, more bass impact, more realistic sound overall. I was surprised at just how much difference the new turntable made, considering the parts from the old one that were on it. Its new bearing and new electronics, along with its better-quality tonearm wiring and better vibration isolation, added up to improvements that were obvious to the ears.

I've never heard an SACD, so I can't comment on how good they may sound. I do listen to well-recorded DVDs and they sound better than a good LP. However, some LPs sound better than some CDs, in a "hearing through to the music" sort of way. Some LPs are not very good, whether through poor quality control or poor recording techniques, just like some CDs. Have you heard of the "loudness wars"?

CDs have a very low noise floor, which is what impressed everyone when they first came out, since most of our records were pretty scratchy then, from playing on our old cheap turntables. However, listening to CDs now reveals that the low noise floor comes at the expense of some of the low-level detail, which is sorted of chopped off. It can give a kind of "canned" feeling to the music. Not only that, the pits on a CD that are read by the laser are five times as large as the smallest ridges on an LP, so that's one of the reasons that vinyl records can retrieve more detail.

The drawback is that those details won't be retrieved by a cheap turntable and cartridge, plus the cheap gear will cause wear and surface noise to show up pretty quickly. The discs themselves are also easily damaged, so the CDs are the safer choice at a party.

As for preferred listening, you're right, it's often preferable to stay home and listen to recorded music instead of going out for a noisy and expensive evening of live music, but for Paul Klipsch and for many others, the sound of live music is the reference, the sound that home systems should be designed and built to reproduce.

Even if you're listening to a studio recording, the ideal system is the one that puts you in the mixing room, the control room, or wherever closest to the actual music is. For me, the Heritage speakers do that better than other speakers.

[Islander]

Islander, where might you point me to start my research on buying a quality record player? I've got the system together and haven't heard LP in 20 years. I'd enjoy having some fun with that!

While I haven't heard that many turntables, and none of the mega-buck models, I'm pretty happy with my Technics direct-drive model. It's reliable, non-fussy, sounds really good, and should last for decades, kind of like Heritage speakers.

The unfortunate part is that Panasonic stopped building them last year, so there are few or no new ones to be found. I did see a new SL-1200 MK5 at London Drugs in Victoria for $599 a few weeks ago, so there may still be some on store shelves.

You could check with Kevin Barrett at KAB Electro Acoustics in New Jersey. He's sort of the guru of SL1200s and has been repairing and modifying them for years. He was selling new turntables, but now sells refurbished and upgraded ones.

More info at: http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/ttables.htm

[Heritage_Head]

Your definition of "better" needs to be explained. An LP can never have the clarity of an sa-cd. That doesn't mean that the sound of an LP is poor.... It has it's own sound. It's kinda close minded to act like everything from "yester-year" is superior. Some people like live music some like LP's and some like clean studio recorded sound. Doesn't make 1 better or worse. But as far as clarity of intended sound is concerned there is no comparison.

No, I don't believe all the old stuff is better than all the new stuff. Most new stuff is better. My 2010 Technics turntable sounds a lot better than my 1978 Technics turntable, even though I'm using the mat, headshell and cartridge from the 1978. As well, that 2005 cartridge sounds better than the 1970s cartridge I used to listen to.

Better how? More detail and clarity, more bass impact, more realistic sound overall. I was surprised at just how much difference the new turntable made, considering the parts from the old one that were on it. Its new bearing and new electronics, along with its better-quality tonearm wiring and better vibration isolation, added up to improvements that were obvious to the ears.

I've never heard an SACD, so I can't comment on how good they may sound. I do listen to well-recorded DVDs and they sound better than a good LP. However, some LPs sound better than some CDs, in a "hearing through to the music" sort of way. Some LPs are not very good, whether through poor quality control or poor recording techniques, just like some CDs. Have you heard of the "loudness wars"?

CDs have a very low noise floor, which is what impressed everyone when they first came out, since most of our records were pretty scratchy then, from playing on our old cheap turntables. However, listening to CDs now reveals that the low noise floor comes at the expense of some of the low-level detail, which is sorted of chopped off. It can give a kind of "canned" feeling to the music. Not only that, the pits on a CD that are read by the laser are five times as large as the smallest ridges on an LP, so that's one of the reasons that vinyl records can retrieve more detail.

The drawback is that those details won't be retrieved by a cheap turntable and cartridge, plus the cheap gear will cause wear and surface noise to show up pretty quickly. The discs themselves are also easily damaged, so the CDs are the safer choice at a party.

As for preferred listening, you're right, it's often preferable to stay home and listen to recorded music instead of going out for a noisy and expensive evening of live music, but for Paul Klipsch and for many others, the sound of live music is the reference, the sound that home systems should be designed and built to reproduce.

Even if you're listening to a studio recording, the ideal system is the one that puts you in the mixing room, the control room, or wherever closest to the actual music is. For me, the Heritage speakers do that better than other speakers.

"CDs have a very low noise floor, which is what impressed everyone when they first came out, since most of our records were pretty scratchy then, from playing on our old cheap turntables. However, listening to CDs now reveals that the low noise floor comes at the expense of some of the low-level detail, which is sorted of chopped off. It can give a kind of "canned" feeling to the music. Not only that, the pits on a CD that are read by the laser are five times as large as the smallest ridges on an LP, so that's one of the reasons that vinyl records can retrieve more detail" [:S]

I smell alcohol

[JasonJCarney]

+1

[Islander]

I'm not a drinker. If I was, all my LPs would be scratched. []