Why Tubes?

[gagelle]

Could someone explain to me why tubes sound so much better, especially with Klipsch speakers, that audiophiles are willing to spend more money and time to obtain even a used set. I honestly have never heard a tube setup and probably would not invest in one until I could experience it for myself. Does it especially do well with classical music and vinyl? I've also read that certain tube sets lack bass, but that may be the particular set I was reading about.

[lighting guy]

There is a certain three dimensionality that comes from a good tube system that I have yet to hear with solid state. Particualrly with SET (although I have yet to hear an OTL system). And it's not a vinyl-only phenomenon. In fact, I actally enjoy some CDs more than records when I compare the same music side by side, as the blackness of the background of many CDs helps the music jump out.

Don't get me wrong, I've heard nice music (with lots of bass) from a really good SS amp, but the sound stage sounds flatter to me. Tubes don't always mean less bass, but even when it does there can be a certain "rightness" to the sound. I have a couple of different tube systems, and with the lowest powered SET I have incorporated an RSW-10 sub to help bring back the authority that my Belles lost with only 3.5 watts of power. I have never bothered to try bi-amping as some here have with good results.

It's hard to describe what the tube sound is: "3d soundstage", "air", "presence", etc. But when you hear it, you know it's right. I find it most appealing with acoustic and vocal music, particularly if it's well recorded. Some say you're adding distortion, but as I understand it's 2nd and 3rd order harmonic distortion, and it gives the music (to me, at least) a fuller sound. It's not the same as distortion that is harsh and displeasing to the ear, unless you exceed the limits of your amplification and speakers.

Not all tubes are created equal, particularly a lot of the modern production tubes sound brighter and crystalline to me. Older tubes from the golden era are more sought after. To me, that's part of the tube appeal as well. Collecting different makes of tubes and trying to find deals at local estate/garage sales. A vacuum tube itself is a thing of beauty to me, you have to marvel at the science and engineering of them.

D

[tube fanatic]

Could someone explain to me why tubes sound so much better, especially with Klipsch speakers, that audiophiles are willing to spend more money and time to obtain even a used set. I honestly have never heard a tube setup and probably would not invest in one until I could experience it for myself. Does it especially do well with classical music and vinyl? I've also read that certain tube sets lack bass, but that may be the particular set I was reading about.

Although I totally agree with your opening statement, there are those who can make an equally compelling argument for solid state amplification (years ago Bob Carver challenged the audio industry by saying that he could make his solid state amplifiers sound the same as any other amplifier- iirc, no one took him up on it). And not all tube amps sound incredible- much has to do with the circuit design as well as the characteristics of the output transformers used. As far as why there's such excellent synergy between Klipsch (especially Heritage) speakers and tube amplification, it is partly due to the extremely high sensitivity and efficiency of the speakers so that minimal power is needed for high sound levels. If you look at the distortion vs power output curves for many tube amplifiers it becomes quite clear that distortion can rise rapidly as the maximum power output of the amp is approached. In the latter situation, even a well designed tube amp can start to sound lousy. SET amps are known to have less, or perhaps somewhat softer, bass than pentode based amps because with the former negative feedback (used to decrease distortion and widen frequency response) is not generally used. As a result, the variations in speaker impedance over the audio band can cause the amp to "lose control" of the woofer somewhat (I can go into more technical details about this if you wish- drop me an email any time). Perhaps you can find a local dealer who would bring over a tube amp for you to evaluate in your system. It's the only way for you really know what you're in store for in making the change to that type of amplifier.

[Boxx]

I have a dedicated listening room where currently I'm employing a pair of McIntosh 275's amps, a McIntosh C2200 tube pre-amplifier and a pair of McIntosh XRT 18 speakers. The turntable that I use with this setup is a highly modified Thorens TD 125 MK II.

Without a doubt I can tell you that the result is phenomenal. Granted, this is a high end setup, however I can take older LP's, pre-recorded tapes (as well as self recorded tapes) or use the radio (McIntosh MR71 tube FM tuner) and make a planned listening session magical.

It would be very difficult for me to part with this tube setup...

Also, you can still go a much less expensive route and still put together a fantastic tube system.

If you choose to go in this direction... good luck on your quest... Boxx

[gnatnoop]

No, i doubt if we could explain it to any degree of satisfaction.

You really need to listen to tubes, at a dealer, buddy's place etc.

I didn't have either option so i bought a cheap intregrated, a Jolida 102b, to test the waters, just to see what all the rukus was about. It was a fairly cheap way to see what everyone was talking about.

Good luck in your quest!

[Gilbert]

Could someone explain to me why tubes sound so much better, especially with Klipsch speakers, that audiophiles are willing to spend more money and time to obtain even a used set. I honestly have never heard a tube setup and probably would not invest in one until I could experience it for myself. Does it especially do well with classical music and vinyl? I've also read that certain tube sets lack bass, but that may be the particular set I was reading about.

I can't explain why, but to my ears, given the same rooms and speaker configurations.... the tube systems sounded distictly better. So much so that the solid state gear went out the door and I never gave it a 2nd. thought.

I know, or should I say my ears know what sounded better, and it was the tubed system w/o any doubt. A with Vinyl, well, it's the only way to listen to the music.

As for your bass concerns, don't worry about that. There is no bass lacking in either of tubed music systems, and I do a majority of my listening at low volume levels.

[gagelle]

I'll probably try tubes one day. I have noticed that some of them are quite expensive.

On another post, someone recommended Jolida. I went to their site and found out that they are involved in litigation with one of their distributors. They claim that their distributor stole some of their designs and began making fake units; that the real Jolida site ends with .net and the fake one ends with .com. They already won in Chinese court and are now litigating in the US. I found this interesting. But they are offering some deep discounts now.

[Ironsave]

I would like to ask..... being the avid thrift store/ garage sale shopper I am;

What should I be looking for in a tube amp?

(Tell tale names besides McIntosh; for instance). How do you know what is good?

[Danzo]

Tubes sounding better is not a universal fact. It's just an acquired taste, just as listening to stereo (2 channel system) is.

It is agreed that humans find pleasurable to listen to even order harmonics some valve amps tend to mix in. Simple as

Obviously there is no right or wrong as listening pleasure is ultimate goal for many of us and there is nothing wrong with coloring or 'warming'

sound up a bit. For more accurate reproduction it's often easier to find what You want among SS flock though.

I am at the moment looking for a decent sounding preamp that would be convenient to use and, among others, came up with this:

Preamp buying guide.

Sorry for not having a better link handy, but some bits could be interesting reading.

[SWL]

Tubes have soul.

I have no problem listening to solid state equipment....I love it. However, for critical listening in the sweetspot....tubes take the experience to another level for me for a variety of reasons. They have soul, the sound is real and oozes emotion. No need to fiddle around trying to get the sound quality right. They just have it.

Klipsch complimented with tubes has made my system "magical" as they say. []

[gagelle]

So true and an interesting article. I remember as a kid discovering real high fidelity by using my parent's old Magnavox tube set with a built in record player. I used to play the Crosby Stills Nash and Young Deja vu album. It was bliss. The only problem is that it would start breaking up if I made it too loud. That old thing was more furniture than amplifier but I'm sure the wizzards here could turn it into something special. Did I mention it was mono? I was thrilled with the sound because it was so much better than the popular transistor radios in the house.

[gnatnoop]

ahhh, so now we know the facts, you've already been bitten by the tube bug....ok, good for you!!!

just read a lot and at some point, take the plunge. it'll probably not be the end all, but use it as a springboard to the next level.....

[gagelle]

First, I have to sell off some of my equipment that I don't use. I recently spent more than I planned on a turntable. I'm really into the sound of my Sansui integrated amp. Since I've been on this forum, I've become kind of compulsive with buying things just if they're a "good deal." And there's no end to it. There's always something new or better. I just read about the class D home theater receivers that Pioneer is selling. As the technology is refined, I believe we will see much more powerful and better sounding receivers for home theater. But my interest is primarily excellent 2 channel sound.

[gagelle]

gnatnoop, perhaps you can help me understand something that seems basic. Is a preamp is needed for a tube amp? If so,does the preamp brand have to match the amp? I also noticed that some tube amps have controls like preamps and will have, maybe one input. Yet they're not called integrated amps. I get the feeling (perhaps I'm mistaken) that one can use a tube amp the way it is; that it doesn't need preamp processing but just a basic device for input jacks. And finally, are there good tube amps being made now that are not several thousand dollars or does one have to dig around for retro units?Thamks in advance for any help.

[Audible Nectar]

I use tubes because of a concept I learned a great deal about on this forum: The concept of MATCHING.

It starts with the speakers. Heritage Klipsch were designed in an era where tubes were the norm, so I think it's a natural fit to use tubes on Heritage today. My listening tests bear this out, to my ears anyway.

If I listened to other speakers as a preference, it is possible that I might choose differently. That pair of speakers would be evaluated with an array of amp combos to see what's best. So I'm not one who is "anti-solid state", it's that I believe the Heritage Klipsch benefit more from the use of vacuum tube gear.

The "microdetail" of the Heritage allow the listener to benefit from all of the subtle adjustments and parts choices possible through the use of tube gear, too. The ruthlessly revealing Heritage will show you the differences in the Telefunken and Amperex 12AX7, for example, two stellar small signal tubes that can change the detail and presentation of the system. So once a tube amp is found that is generally a good match, tube rolling allows you to find that "SuperMatch".

And then continuing on the theme of matching, yes it is important to match the gears too. Once an amp is found that gives good results, one might try a few different pramps with that amp to see what sounds best in combination. This of course would apply with Solid State as well, but yes, sonically matching the electronics ahead of the speakers will give benefit too. And then once that is done, there are the sources used, where again attempts at "sonic matching/best sonic combo" is again searched for.

So for me, the answer to "Why Tubes" is that I think they sound best on my Heritage, and the fact that tube gear allows for almost infinite customization, which the revealing nature of Heritage shows in all hues of the sonic color pallette.

[tube fanatic]

gnatnoop, perhaps you can help me understand something that seems basic. Is a preamp is needed for a tube amp? If so,does the preamp brand have to match the amp? I also noticed that some tube amps have controls like preamps and will have, maybe one input. Yet they're not called integrated amps. I get the feeling (perhaps I'm mistaken) that one can use a tube amp the way it is; that it doesn't need preamp processing but just a basic device for input jacks. And finally, are there good tube amps being made now that are not several thousand dollars or does one have to dig around for retro units?Thamks in advance for any help.

Sorry for intruding on a request from a specific forum member, but I have a free moment. The issue of a preamp is dependent on the sensitivity of the amp (i.e. how much driving voltage is needed for it to achieve full output). Some amps need only 0.1 to 0.5 volts to achieve full output and can be driven directly by a high level source like a CD player. However, if the amp lacks an input level adjusting control, some type of outboard device is needed. Some people prefer using what's known as a passive line stage between their source and the amp, as opposed to a powered preamp, to eliminate having an additional source of noise, hum, and other sonic artifacts. The passive devices, however, should be installed close to the amp through the shortest possible interconnects (of low capacitance) to reduce the potential for slight rolloff of the highs. The term integrated amp is usually reserved for amps with input switching for multiple sources, tape loops, possible phono stages, and so on. And, yes, there are fine tube amps of current manufacture available which do not break the bank. Companies like Decware, JoLida (in spite of their legal controversies), Cayin, and Prima Luna come to mind. As to whether such amps compare sonically to vintage, fully restored amps, only you can make that judgment by listening to them in your own system.

[gagelle]

Hi Audible. I understand what you're saying and it holds true perhaps for the Heritage line. But many people continue to but those speakers with solid state equipment also. I really have to hear a good tube amp for myself, which I intend to do when I can drive to the Bay area. There are no small audio shops in my city, except for some places that specialize in room design.

[wipster]

I use tubes because of a concept I learned a great deal about on this forum: The concept of MATCHING.

It starts with the speakers. Heritage Klipsch were designed in an era where tubes were the norm, so I think it's a natural fit to use tubes on Heritage today. My listening tests bear this out, to my ears anyway. <...>

A Nectar,

It's interesting that you brought this up, as we just did an experiment that kind of validates your concept, if only from an analog v digital perspective. I recently rebuilt the crossovers on my 1975 Heresy's, definitely a heritage speaker. As they have been rode hard and put away wet many times in their 35 plus years (I had relegated them to garage and wedding reception duty), we also refinished the Walnut veneers, built new risers, and

changed the polarities per the “Dope From Hope” issued 36 years ago (these had

Type D crossovers). When we powered them up, using a Scott LK-48 for power and listening to Petty's "Damn the Torpedos" on vinyl, we were absolutely blown away at how good they sounded... unbelievable improvement!

Anyway, I was so impressed that I decided to bring them in to the great room, specifically to be the dedicated speakers for the separate tube-based system for listening to vinyl and SACD's I had recently put tgether(Eico HF-85 pre and 2 HF-50 mono amps). My home theatre system uses Fortes for the main speakers with an Onkyo SR805 and I had been using a Niles amp switcher to use the Fortes for both systems. I've always considered the Fortes to be the second generation of heritage speakers, as they came out about the same time as the CD emerged and have a more modern look, as well as a spectacular sound.

While we were moving things around to properly place the the Heresy's, we decided to do a

blind A/B comparison between the two speaker pairs. I had a spare speaker switch (I save everything... I think I have the first patch cord I ever bought), so we were able to easily switch between the speakers without the listener knowing which speakers they were listening to. While both speaker pairs sounded great, it was obvious to the three of the people listening (all Klipschoholics) that the Heresy's clearly sounded

the best of the two with vinyl and the Fortes clearly sounded the best with CD’s

and digital feeds, all with the same amplification (the tube system)... almost like they were

designed that way and maybe they were? I know when I first heard the Fortes, a CD was used, and obviously an LP was spinning when I first heard my Heresy's. Even though we were using tube amplication for this test, I would bet money that the Heresy's sound better using tubes and the Fortes would sound the better of the two using solid state (note I did not say they would sound better using solid state because when I was using the Fortes both both amps, they sounded better using the Eico's as well, even though the Onkyo is a great sounding SS amp).

Thought I would share, as this experiment was a lot of fun, with some definite conclusions about heritage speakers and analog v SS at least.

[tube fanatic]

I use tubes because of a concept I learned a great deal about on this forum: The concept of MATCHING.

It starts with the speakers. Heritage Klipsch were designed in an era where tubes were the norm, so I think it's a natural fit to use tubes on Heritage today. My listening tests bear this out, to my ears anyway. <...>

While we were moving things around to properly place the the Heresy's, we decided to do a
blind A/B comparison between the two speaker pairs. I had a spare speaker switch (I save everything... I think I have the first patch cord I ever bought), so we were able to easily switch between the speakers without the listener knowing which speakers they were listening to. While both speaker pairs sounded great, it was obvious to the three of the people listening (all Klipschoholics) that the Heresy's clearly sounded
the best of the two with vinyl and the Fortes clearly sounded the best with CD’s
and digital feeds, all with the same amplification (the tube system)... almost like they were
designed that way and maybe they were? I know when I first heard the Fortes, a CD was used, and obviously an LP was spinning when I first heard my Heresy's. Even though we were using tube amplication for this test, I would bet money that the Heresy's sound better using tubes and the Fortes would sound the better of the two using solid state (note I did not say they would sound better using solid state because when I was using the Fortes both both amps, they sounded better using the Eico's as well, even though the Onkyo is a great sounding SS amp).

Thought I would share, as this experiment was a lot of fun, with some definite conclusions about heritage speakers and analog v SS at least.

The only flaw in the experiment that you outlined is that you didn't state whether you level matched when switching between speakers. Without that, it's almost impossible to draw definite conclusions.

[gagelle]

Thanks Tube Fanatic. Your explanation is very helpful. I'll check out the companies you mentioned.