La Scala bass (by the numbers...) [video]

[Quiet_Hollow]

La Scalas have sub bass. For all the people contemplating buying a sub, or god forbid, physically modifying their cabs solely to listen to music..choose wisely. I have to raise my brows when someone contemplates cutting up their cabs, or says they can't get the bass they want out of 16 cubic feet of bass bin.

Buy or rent an EQ and slide in 5 dB from 30-60Hz. Simple as that. What's at your disposal? 2 fifteen inch drivers with ~8 mm xmax each, 8 square feet of mouth, 96 dB of sensitivity in the basement in half-space, with 20 dBW RMS of headroom over one watt.

I run a sub with my pair for home theater extension, dynamics, and precision bass management over my meager receiver. But I ran my La Scalas solo, listening, err flat-out jamming, for 5 years no-problemo before adding a sub. If you find the bass in a stock LaScala lacking...EQ because it's in there.

*EDIT*- Link to the video is on page 4 of the thread, and fixed broken links.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Quiet_Hollow

[runninshine]

I will have to try that sometime. There is a lot of bass talk about the LS but I love the clean bass mine produce. It's nothing like the Khorns low end but they're not supposed to be, it;s a different animal.

[mustang guy]

La Scalas have sub bass. For all the people contemplating buying a sub, or god forbid, physically modifying their cabs solely to listen to music..choose wisely. I have to raise my brows when someone contemplates cutting up their cabs, or says they can't get the bass they want out of 16 cubic feet of bass bin.

Buy or rent an EQ and slide in 5 dB from 30-60Hz. Simple as that. What's at your disposal? 2 fifteen inch drivers with ~8 mm xmax each, 8 square feet of mouth, 96 dB of sensitivity in the basement in half-space, with 20 dBW RMS of headroom over one watt.

I run a sub with my pair for home theater extension, dynamics, and precision bass management over my meager receiver. But I ran my La Scalas solo, listening, err flat-out jamming, for 5 years no-problemo before adding a sub. If you find the bass in a stock LaScala lacking...EQ because it's in there.

My LaScalas are in a very large building, and the bass just doesn't get the same boosts as people with smaller rooms. My listening position is a full 28 feet from my speakers. For that reason, I built two THT's. I think LaScalas in a small room with some EQ would definitely beat your chest! In a larger area, I know they won't.

[Quiet_Hollow]

My LaScalas are in a very large building, and the bass just doesn't get the same boosts as people with smaller rooms.

I understand the uniqueness of your very large shop / lounge, but you're also running home theater. Have you ever plugged in an EQ just to see what you could've gotten away with strictly for 2 channel music? []

[CECAA850]

What's at your disposal? 2 fifteen inch drivers with ~8 mm xmax each

To me, that fact is misleading. sure, there are two 15" drivers, but how many square inches are the slots they fire through? If you're giving them boost in the 30-60 Hz region, what did you do to your cabs to reduce resonation? I couldn't figure out a way to stop mine without altering the stock cabs, so I cross them over at 70 Hz and use a horn loaded sub. I'll admit that I've never tried EQ, but to my ears, the stock cabs and drivers are sufficiently lacking in bass to warrant a sub.

[Invidiosulus]

What's at your disposal? 2 fifteen inch drivers with ~8 mm xmax each

To me, that fact is misleading. sure, there are two 15" drivers, but how many square inches are the slots they fire through?

Whether or not they fire through a slot they still displace the same amount of air.

[StephenM]

Out of curiosity, what do the numbers say about distortion at those frequencies when EQed? What is the maximum output capability of a La Scala at 30Hz at one meter?

[Guest " "]

Out of curiosity, what do the numbers say about distortion at those frequencies when EQed? What is the maximum output capability of a La Scala at 30Hz at one meter?

one of the LaScala industrial models has max power input broken into bands. for example.....0 to 40hz=25 watts, 40hz to 400hz=100 watts, etc, etc for 400 to 4500hz and 4500hz to 18khz. reguardless of the measurement tactic (peak, continuous, sine, program, etc) the power handling between 0 to 40hz is pretty poor.

[CECAA850]

What's at your disposal? 2 fifteen inch drivers with ~8 mm xmax each

To me, that fact is misleading. sure, there are two 15" drivers, but how many square inches are the slots they fire through?

Whether or not they fire through a slot they still displace the same amount of air.

Yes, technically you are correct, however when I think of the bass possible from two 15" drivers, the Lascala's seem anemic.

[Invidiosulus]

What's at your disposal? 2 fifteen inch drivers with ~8 mm xmax each

To me, that fact is misleading. sure, there are two 15" drivers, but how many square inches are the slots they fire through?

Whether or not they fire through a slot they still displace the same amount of air.

Yes, technically you are correct, however when I think of the bass possible from two 15" drivers, the Lascala's seem anemic.

104dB at 1watt?

[StephenM]

Yes, technically you are correct, however when I think of the bass possible from two 15" drivers, the Lascala's seem anemic.

It's simply not what the La Scala was designed to do; what can you expect?

[Quiet_Hollow]

Out of curiosity, what do the numbers say about distortion at those frequencies when EQed? What is the maximum output capability of a La Scala at 30Hz at one meter?

Distortion at a normal listening level for me was inaudible. As far as maximum output capability, calculated max RMS SPL in half-space (because actual is situationally dependent) when you flatten the bottom end using a 8 dB of EQ, would be ~110 dB SPL from bottom to top. Enough to easily flap your clothes at all frequencies when standing near the speaker.

Running without EQ...yeah, thin would describe it. They really need 3-5 dB of EQ in the 30-60 region to get full. 8-9 dB and they get down-right authoritative . Nothing the drivers can't handle at all, given the design's lofty sensitivity. I've found the bottoms of mine to vibrate at even the most minute levels, almost regardless of playback level, and at most prominently the mid bass frequencies. Which makes sense as that would be approximately the natural frequency for a 22 inch span of wood (ie. the un-braced mouth). When dialing in the EQ, the cabinet vibrated no more significantly that it had already been doing so....in my experience.

The LSI uses a K-43 woofer which is tuned higher than a K33-E. None the less...even 40Hz is pretty damn low for music.

It's simply not what the La Scala was designed to do; what can you expect?

[bs] The La Scala was designed to output K-Horn style goodness in the absence of perfect corners. It can do that just fine without physical modification.

[CECAA850]

What's at your disposal? 2 fifteen inch drivers with ~8 mm xmax each

To me, that fact is misleading. sure, there are two 15" drivers, but how many square inches are the slots they fire through?

Whether or not they fire through a slot they still displace the same amount of air.

Yes, technically you are correct, however when I think of the bass possible from two 15" drivers, the Lascala's seem anemic.

104dB at 1watt?

I thought we were talking about extension, not efficiency. A 15" driver in a box that's down 4 dB @54 Hz is not all that impressive to me.

[Quiet_Hollow]

A 15" driver in a box that's down 4 dB @54 Hz is not all that impressive to me.

When it has to cover nearly 4 octaves in the mean time? It isn't like that cone is scrambling to just get by down there. It's loafing along, EQ puts the spurs to it.

[Quiet_Hollow]

0 to 40hz=25 watts,

the power handling between 0 to 40hz is pretty poor

The specs might appear paltry, but run the numbers. Half-space the La Scala is 96dB SPL @ 1 watt (conservatively rated) from 30-60Hz. 25 watts will net 13dB over that. That's right around 110 dB, as I mentioned before above. All well within the power envelop of the design.

[StephenM]

Distortion at a normal listening level for me was inaudible. As far as maximum output capability, calculated max RMS SPL in half-space (because actual is situationally dependent) when you flatten the bottom end using a 8 dB of EQ, would be ~110 dB SPL from bottom to top.

How did you come by this calculation? Do you have actual measurements showing output versus distortion? For example an SVS PB13-Ultra has actually been independantly measured to output 105dB at 2 meters ground plane at 30Hz (equating to 111dB at 1 meter) with under 3% THD. Do you have anything to indicate that the La Scala can actually match that kind of performance besides the fact that they sound fine to you EQed, and by your calculations, you believe they can put out 110dB at 30Hz?

The La Scala was designed to output K-Horn style goodness in the absence of perfect corners. It can do that just fine without physical modification.

BS right back at ya. The fact that straight from the factory, the La Scala was down 4dB at 53Hz is a pretty strong indicator that they were not in fact designed to have K-horn levels of deep bass reproduction. That you can EQ the crap out of it and produce something acceptable to your ear is beside the point.

[StephenM]

The specs might appear paltry, but run the numbers. Half-space the La Scala is 96dB SPL @ 1 watt (conservatively rated) from 30-60Hz. 25 watts will net 13dB over that. That's right around 110 dB, as I mentioned before above. All well within the power envelop of the design.

How does compression play into your calculations?

[CECAA850]

A 15" driver in a box that's down 4 dB @54 Hz is not all that impressive to me.

When it has to cover nearly 4 octaves in the mean time? It isn't like that cone is scrambling to just get by down there. It's loafing along, EQ puts the spurs to it.

At the end of the day, TO ME, it's still a 15" bass cabinet with sub par extension.

[Quiet_Hollow]

How did you come by this calculation? Do you have actual measurements showing output versus distortion? For example an SVS PB13-Ultra has actually been independantly measured to output 105dB at 2 meters ground plane at 30Hz (equating to 111dB at 1 meter) with under 3% THD. Do you have anything to indicate that the La Scala can actually match that kind of performance besides the fact that they sound fine to you EQed, and by your calculations, you believe they can put out 110dB at 30Hz?

Distortion figures are part of the engineering specication shown below. I'm not claiming those numbers at 30Hz, but Klipsch has them for 45 Hz and above for the home version and 40Hz and above for the LSI. Keep in mind, the bass bin is not comparable to a standalone powered subwoofer that can easily dip into the infra-sonic region.

BS right back at ya. The fact that straight from the factory, the La Scala was down 4dB at 53Hz is a pretty strong indicator that they were not in fact designed to have K-horn levels of deep bass reproduction.

There is nothing glaringly distiguishing about the freq responses shown below until you realize that the K-Horn had to be in a corner to get those numbers. The La Scala wasn't. However, comparing the two is not the point of this thread.

That you can EQ the crap out of it and produce something acceptable to your ear is beside the point.

+/- 8 dB is far from "EQ the crap out it".

How does compression play into your calculations?

It didn't, seeing that the senario requires less than 30 watts. But if you want to substract 2 dB SPL (a reasonable number) ...it still comes out above 104 dB SPL.

At the end of the day, TO ME, it's still a 15" bass cabinet with sub par extension.

I hear ya.

[StephenM]

Distortion figures are part of the engineering specication shown below.

Upon reading the sheet, a peak of 10% modulation distortion is cited. However, this tells us nothing of other types of distortion, ie harmonic. Frankly, it doesn't tell us much of anything, since that's a rather high amount of modulation distortion. If I'm missing something, please let me know.

Keep in mind, the bass bin is not comparable to a standalone powered subwoofer that can easily dip into the infra-sonic region.

I didn't claim they were comparable; however, there is little question that a subwoofer of commensurate quality to your La Scalas would seriously outperform them below 40Hz, in quality and quantity, and that such a subwoofer would be a very worthwhile addition for listening to many kinds of music. This is in contrast to the implication of your first post that EQing a La Scala yields all the bass most people would need for music.

There is nothing glaringly distiguishing about the freq responses shown

Actually there is a significant difference between 35 and 70Hz to my eyes.

However, comparing the two is not the point of this thread.

You were the one who stated that the La Scala was "designed output out K-horn style goodness" when I mentioned that the La Scala wasn't designed to reproduce deep bass.

+/- 8 dB is far from "EQ the crap out it

It's a factor of over 6 for power. That's rather significant IMO.

It didn't, seeing that the senario requires less than 30 watts. But if you want to substract 2 dB SPL (a reasonable number) ...it still comes out above 104 dB SPL.

Frankly, I'm not sure how you established what is a "reasonable amount" of compression for the situation, but I'll add my own observations: according to speakerfritz, 25 watts is the maximum input power from 0-40Hz that the La Scala Industrial can manage. Maximum input power is simply the most juice the speaker will absorb without potentially being damaged, not the max amount of input power before onset of significant compression.To illustrate this, the La Scala II has a rated sensitivity of 105dB, and a maximum acoustic output of 121dB per the product page. To reach that figure only requires 40 watts assuming 0 compression. On the other hand, the La Scala II is rated for 100 watts continuous and 400 watts peak. So what does that make a reasonable figure for compression at 30Hz with 25 watts input? Who knows. You'd have to measure it to know for certain, but to assume that it will respond with 0 compression or even 2dB compression is being rather liberal with your numbers. This to say nothing of what the heck the speaker is doing distortion-wise over 20Hz below it's rated response capability.