La Scala bass (by the numbers...) [video]

[StephenM]

None the less...even 40Hz is pretty *** low for music.

Depends on the music.

http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm

Then there is the magic of electronic music...

[Coytee]

A 15" driver in a box that's down 4 dB @54 Hz is not all that impressive to me

I agree. In addition to my LaScalas, I bought (in 1978 and still have) a pair of EV's that are -3db at 28hz.

The difference between the two is not insignificiant when it comes to shaking foundations (or chest pounding)

Just for kicks & grins, I also had a 3bx as well as the original dbx subharmonic synthesizer. (back when they called it the 'boom box') and an Audio Control C-101 eq. The sub harmonic synth was plumbed into the processer loop of the 3bx so it could be expanded or defeated by a push of a button.

When I kicked the tape loop in and brought those goodies into play, the system took on a WHOLE new personality.

Yeah... maybe the LaScalas would/could play lower with those things in the loop... by the same token, perhaps the EV's were also playing lower as well.

In either case, the EV's always smoked the LaScalas in deep bass and the LaScalas always smoked the EV's in mid-bass punch. Together, I called them a cacophony of violence!

[Y]

[Quiet_Hollow]

Upon reading the sheet, a peak of 10% modulation distortion is cited. However, this tells us nothing of other types of distortion, ie harmonic. Frankly, it doesn't tell us much of anything, since that's a rather high amount of modulation distortion. If I'm missing something, please let me know.

It's one percent. There's a decimal point in there. It is also stated in the lower right as part of the second to the last paragraph. And that was measured at 100dB (ie. pretty darn darn loud). It tells me that this speaker plays very loud, with very little distortion, within the paramteters of the test.

I didn't claim they were comparable; however, there is little question that a subwoofer of commensurate quality to your La Scalas would seriously outperform them below 40Hz, in quality and quantity, and that such a subwoofer would be a very worthwhile addition for listening to many kinds of music. This is in contrast to the implication of your first post that EQing a La Scala yields all the bass most people would need for music.

Trying out EQ is a lot cheaper and less permanent than acquiring a sub of commensurate quality or giving the cab a facelift. Does not even the finest woman look better with something as benign as good make-up?

It's a factor of over 6 for power. That's rather significant IMO

IMO it's not. My speakers are lucky to see one watt. Why? Because otherwise I'll have the fuzz over at my place asking why dishes are rattling in neighbor's house a half-block away. A factor of 6 is 6 watts and would be raising absolute Cain.

Frankly, I'm not sure how you established what is a "reasonable amount" of compression for the situation

It just isn't as big of a factor at the power level I'm talking about. I'm saying if you want to be conservative, and subtract for "power compression"...by all means, go ahead. Subtract a full 6dB (compresion of an average speaker at 100 watts) and the number is still more bass than your police will gladly shake their stick at.

...but I'll add my own observations: according to speakerfritz, 25 watts is the maximum input power from 0-40Hz that the La Scala Industrial can manage. Maximum input power is simply the most juice the speaker will absorb without potentially being damaged, not the max amount of input power before onset of significant compression.To illustrate this, the La Scala II has a rated sensitivity of 105dB, and a maximum acoustic output of 121dB per the product page. To reach that figure only requires 40 watts assuming 0 compression. On the other hand, the La Scala II is rated for 100 watts continuous and 400 watts peak. So what does that make a reasonable figure for compression at 30Hz with 25 watts input? Who knows. You'd have to measure it to know for certain, but to assume that it will respond with 0 compression or even 2dB compression is being rather liberal with your numbers. This to say nothing of what the heck the speaker is doing distortion-wise over 20Hz below it's rated response capability.

That math is wrong. 25 watts is displacement limited power. There is little, if any, power compression taking place. It's just not an issue at anything under 100 dB SPL with this design's capability. I'm not blowing smoke.

Depends on the music.

http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm

Then there is the magic of electronic music...

C'mon, keep it real. People aren't chopping up their La Scalas for infra-sound.

[Dennie]

Numbers? I don't need no stinking numbers, I've got two ears and they tell me my La Scalas sound magnificent with music! [<)]

YMMV,

Dennie

[StephenM]

It's one percent. There's a decimal point in there. It is also stated in the lower right as part of the second to the last paragraph. And that was measured at 100dB (ie. pretty darn darn loud). It tells me that this speaker plays very loud, with very little distortion, within the paramteters of the test.

Can't make out the decimal point, my apologies. Either way, my original point stands: modulation distortion is only one type of distortion; still have to account for harmonic distortion, and other such details. Also, do the parameters include 100dB at 20, 30, or 40Hz? Probably not since the speaker was only rated to 45Hz +/- 5dB.

Trying out EQ is a lot cheaper and less permanent than acquiring a sub of commensurate quality or giving the cab a facelift. Does not even the finest woman look better with something as benign as good make-up?

Fair enough; but my problem isn't with using a little EQ to boost the bottom end; it was with your original statements: "For all the people contemplating buying a sub"... "I have to raise my brows when someone contemplates cutting up their
cabs, or says they can't get the bass they want out of 16 cubic feet of
bass bin." Sure, you might be able to boost the low end a little without any ill effects and it will surely firm up the sound. But suggesting that you won't seriously benefit from a sub? Heck, my RF-5s utilize a vented cabinet and dual 8" woofers that are specified to be good down to 34Hz. I still appreciate what my sub can bring to the table with music, at every volume level (which includes taking the strain off my mains, allowing them to perform even better).

It's just not an issue at anything under 100 dB SPL with this design's capability. I'm not blowing smoke.

At 100dB at one meter, I'd be inclined to agree; but we we're discussing 110dB at one meter previously (your stated maximum estimate for the La Scala at 30Hz). Of course, 100dB at 1 meter also equates to 88.7dB at 12 feet. Boundary gain may add a couple dB, but these are hardly"cops busting down the doors level", at least in my neighborhood.

C'mon, keep it real. People aren't chopping up their La Scalas for infra-sound.

Not really talking about people who chop up their cabinets; I wouldn't recommend that in any case. I'm talking about people that feel a good quality subwoofer would take their La Scalas to a whole new level, which it undoubtedly will, even for music. EQ can be an OK stopgap, but EQing a La Scala is no replacement for a Danley DTS 10.

[StephenM]

Numbers? I don't need no stinking numbers, I've got two ears and they tell me my La Scalas sound magnificent with music!

I'm sure they do! On the other hand, if a nice Danley sub somehow got hooked into your system, would you say "ohh thats nice, but my La Scalas have all the bass I need" and then proceed to return it??? That's my point.

[Dennie]

Numbers? I don't need no stinking numbers, I've got two ears and they tell me my La Scalas sound magnificent with music!

I'm sure they do! On the other hand, if a nice Danley sub somehow got hooked into your system, would you say "ohh thats nice, but my La Scalas have all the bass I need" and then proceed to return it??? That's my point.

I'll PM you my address and you can send one (or two) and we'll see! []

Dennie []

[Dennie]

Numbers? I don't need no stinking numbers, I've got two ears and they tell me my La Scalas sound magnificent with music!

I'm sure they do! On the other hand, if a nice Danley sub somehow got hooked into your system, would you say "ohh thats nice, but my La Scalas have all the bass I need" and then proceed to return it??? That's my point.

I just did a little "experimenting" with my SVS and you are correct. Once you know the sub is there, you miss it when it is gone. But, with that being said, I think if I only had the La Scalas without a sub, I could live with them and be quite happy. I don't typically listen at high SPL's, but next time I do, I'll bump the 30hz - 60hz slider on the Audio Control C101-III, 3db to 5db and see how it sounds with the sub off.

Dennie

[RRFL]

I'm about to go to my second Yoga class for the day but before I go this is a picture of a girl at the gym last night that was defiantly experiencing some chest thumping [] while she was running at what must have been Mach 2.8

[RRFL]

How did you come by this calculation? Do you have actual measurements showing output versus distortion? For example an SVS PB13-Ultra has actually been independantly measured to output 105dB at 2 meters ground plane at 30Hz (equating to 111dB at 1 meter) with under 3% THD. Do you have anything to indicate that the La Scala can actually match that kind of performance besides the fact that they sound fine to you EQed, and by your calculations, you believe they can put out 110dB at 30Hz?

Distortion figures are part of the engineering specication shown below. I'm not claiming those numbers at 30Hz, but Klipsch has them for 45 Hz and above for the home version and 40Hz and above for the LSI. Keep in mind, the bass bin is not comparable to a standalone powered subwoofer that can easily dip into the infra-sonic region.

BS right back at ya. The fact that straight from the factory, the La Scala was down 4dB at 53Hz is a pretty strong indicator that they were not in fact designed to have K-horn levels of deep bass reproduction.

There is nothing glaringly distiguishing about the freq responses shown below until you realize that the K-Horn had to be in a corner to get those numbers. The La Scala wasn't. However, comparing the two is not the point of this thread.

That you can EQ the crap out of it and produce something acceptable to your ear is beside the point.

+/- 8 dB is far from "EQ the crap out it".

How does compression play into your calculations?

It didn't, seeing that the senario requires less than 30 watts. But if you want to substract 2 dB SPL (a reasonable number) ...it still comes out above 104 dB SPL.

At the end of the day, TO ME, it's still a 15" bass cabinet with sub par extension.

I hear ya.

I'm impressed totally impressed.

I still have all my 1975 Klipsch Brochures and the Owners manuals both styles for that vintage.

I bought my brand new 1976 LS-BR with the AA networks and still have them and listen to them every day. Today they did say 12 hours since I listen all night while sleeping at very low levels so you are straining to hear anything. In the morning they actually sound really loud by comparison.

I have a Ultra Curve DEQ2496 connected into tape loop 2 on my pre-amp and I have a Peavey PVR-1 that I use to measure the room/speaker response.

I also listen to the result and from memory compare that to the natural instruments.

I had a fun party trick back in the 70's. I found the resonate frequency for the floor in my bedroom with my synthesizer. This was a frequency that made your voice sound funny when you tried to talk but you could not really hear anything. The resonance in the floor would cause your ankles to itch and tingle so much you just had to get off the floor and everyone would end up on the bed.

It was a really excellent party trick.

Change the frequency slightly and the door would vibrate and during one of Mum and Dad's parties the cement render came off the wall in the lounge and Dad was not impressed even though everyone had to come into my room to see what had them all freeze thinking it was an earth quake.

When I turn up the bass on my 1981 $2,500 class A preamp the LaScala does not get muddy it does get deeper, clean and deep. Of course I don't slam them with lots of volts while I'm doing that.

Back then when there were Khorn, Heresy, Cornwall, LaScala and Belle in the Home range of speakers, I reckoned, Klipsch not only wiped the floor with most other speakers they cleaned the whole house.

Back then other manufactures quoted 20 - 20k +/- 1db but when you compared most other speakers to Klipsch there was only one word to describe the moment, "BULLSHIT"[bs]

[RRFL]

It even has a graph in the box.

[RRFL]

A 15" driver in a box that's down 4 dB @54 Hz is not all that impressive to me

I agree. In addition to my LaScalas, I bought (in 1978 and still have) a pair of EV's that are -3db at 28hz.

The difference between the two is not insignificiant when it comes to shaking foundations (or chest pounding)

Just for kicks & grins, I also had a 3bx as well as the original dbx subharmonic synthesizer. (back when they called it the 'boom box') and an Audio Control C-101 eq. The sub harmonic synth was plumbed into the processer loop of the 3bx so it could be expanded or defeated by a push of a button.

When I kicked the tape loop in and brought those goodies into play, the system took on a WHOLE new personality.

Yeah... maybe the LaScalas would/could play lower with those things in the loop... by the same token, perhaps the EV's were also playing lower as well.

In either case, the EV's always smoked the LaScalas in deep bass and the LaScalas always smoked the EV's in mid-bass punch. Together, I called them a cacophony of violence!

I'm thinking of building a Tuba HT into my stair case as the 3rd stair so it will be in the 3rd corner of my lounge as the LFE for movies. The Jubs will have the other 2 corners for both movies and normal 2channel listening.

KPT-KHJ-LF

Frequency Response 45Hz-800Hz ± 4dB 34Hz-1kHz -10dB

Power Handling 200 watts (40.5V) per woofer 40Hz-800Hz

Calc. Max. Cont. Output 128dB

Sensitivity 105dB

Coverage Horizontal 90° ± 20° 200Hz-1kHz

Vertical 90° ± 20° 200Hz-600Hz

DI 8dB ± 2dB 200Hz-800Hz

Q 6.3

Nominal Impedance 8 ohms (4.1 min. @ 120Hz)

Transducers woofers wired in parallel

Two K-1080-KP 12" woofers

Input Connectors Barrier strip

Height 40.0" (101.6cm)

Width 41.5" (105cm)

Depth 24.5" (62.23cm)

Weight 180 lbs. (82kg)

So by my calculations the LaScala Max out @ 121dB SPL and the Jubilee @ 128dB so therefore 4 LaScala = 1 Jubilee

I reckon, I'm really in for a thrill when I get my lounge finished with my choice of the latest refinements in the Klipsch product range.

[Ironsave]

I'm about to go to my second Yoga class for the day but before I go this is a picture of a girl at the gym last night that was definatly experiencing some chest thumping while she was running at what must have been Mach 2.8

Rod;

Thanks for helping me spill my soda! (LMAO!!!!).

[]

[RRFL]

Numbers? I don't need no stinking numbers, I've got two ears and they tell me my La Scalas sound magnificent with music!

I'm sure they do! On the other hand, if a nice Danley sub somehow got hooked into your system, would you say "ohh thats nice, but my La Scalas have all the bass I need" and then proceed to return it??? That's my point.

I just did a little "experimenting" with my SVS and you are correct. Once you know the sub is there, you miss it when it is gone. But, with that being said, I think if I only had the La Scalas without a sub, I could live with them and be quite happy. I don't typically listen at high SPL's, but next time I do, I'll bump the 30hz - 60hz slider on the Audio Control C101-III, 3db to 5db and see how it sounds with the sub off.

Dennie

I have lived with my LaScala for 35 years now and I still like them just the way they are.[]

I have listened to countless speakers over those 35 years and now I'm splurging out big time again the first time since 1976 with a pair of the current best development in the compact fully horn loaded speaker line.[ip]

[RRFL]

I'm about to go to my second Yoga class for the day but before I go this is a picture of a girl at the gym last night that was definatly experiencing some chest thumping while she was running at what must have been Mach 2.8

Rod;

Thanks for helping me spill my soda! (LMAO!!!!).

Your welcome, [] but check out where her legs should be, she is going so fast her legs have warped into an alternate space time continuum.[]

[Don Richard]

Just for kicks & grins, I also had a 3bx as well as the original dbx subharmonic synthesizer. (back when they called it the 'boom box') and an Audio Control C-101 eq. The sub harmonic synth was plumbed into the processer loop of the 3bx so it could be expanded or defeated by a push of a button.

When I kicked the tape loop in and brought those goodies into play, the system took on a WHOLE new personality.

There is also a product called Maxxbass, IIRC, that increases percieved bass in music by altering the harmonic structure of the sound. By changing the ratios of different order harmonics to each other and the fundamental, the bass appears to be louder and lower without actually boosting low frequencies like an EQ does. They are used in recording and live sound and I suspect that DJs use this equipment also.

As far as EQing a Lascala, the bass horn's output drops off below the cutoff frequency, then behaves like a direct radiator that has a 6 dB/octave rolloff. Careful EQing can certainly improve output in this frequency range, but realize that significant SPL at 20 Hz is just not going to happen with the Lascalas.

[mustang guy]

I'm thinking of building a Tuba HT into my stair case as the 3rd stair so it will be in the 3rd corner of my lounge as the LFE for movies. The Jubs will have the other 2 corners for both movies and normal 2channel listening.

The mouth of the THT is 14" high. Were you looking at having that come through the side wall, or have a really tall riser? I have often wondered what kind of gain you might get if you implemented a sort of cabin gain for a THT. In other words, like a car trunk, you get a 12db cabin gain. What if you placed the THT in the empty space under the stairs, and had a port or two coming through where the risers are. IMO, it would really shake the house!

[mustang guy]

There is also a product called Maxxbass, IIRC, that increases percieved bass in music by altering the harmonic structure of the sound. By changing the ratios of different order harmonics to each other and the fundamental, the bass appears to be louder and lower without actually boosting low frequencies like an EQ does. They are used in recording and live sound and I suspect that DJs use this equipment also.

Remember the 'loudness' button that used to be on everything. They did something like that. I never understood exactly what was happening, but it darn well worked when you had cheesey little speakers, because would send frequencies to the speakers that they could actually produce.

[RRFL]

I'm thinking of building a Tuba HT into my stair case as the 3rd stair so it will be in the 3rd corner of my lounge as the LFE for movies. The Jubs will have the other 2 corners for both movies and normal 2channel listening.

The mouth of the THT is 14" high. Were you looking at having that come through the side wall, or have a really tall riser? I have often wondered what kind of gain you might get if you implemented a sort of cabin gain for a THT. In other words, like a car trunk, you get a 12db cabin gain. What if you placed the THT in the empty space under the stairs, and had a port or two coming through where the risers are. IMO, it would really shake the house!

I'm going to hang my Heresy as rear surround speakers inverted centre in front of the stairs back to back facing the sides of the room and reflecting from the side walls. The hanging cardboard Tee shows the bottom edge and corners. "Thanks to dtel for mentioning laying the rear speakers on the floor behind the lounge pointing upwards."

The Landing and bottom 5 stairs will be replaced by a 3 corner stair bend then 2 stairs to the floor. The 3 seat lounge will be where the 5 stairs are now. I will build a Tuba THT (36x36x24) to sit on it's side under the 90 degree corner 3 stair bend with the 2 stairs to the floor in front of what is normally the base of the THT. That means the 3rd stair from the floor will be the side of the THT with the 2 other corner stairs on top of the side of the box. 3 stairs are exactly 24inchs high from the floor. The horn mouth will be right next to and just behind the lounge.

I anticipate that I will have plenty of headroom with the THT and therefore very low distortion of the LFE component of movies.

The plan at the moment is to use an OPPO BDP-95 connected directly to an ASHLY Protea NE8800 "thanks Mark1101 for your input" the NE8800 will connect directly to the amps. I will set the Heresy to small so the THT can take care of the rear surround very lows as well as the LFE.

The mouth of the THT will not be against the wall, rather the top of the THT to be against the wall so the wall is clear for a cabinet, as long as the cabinet is not noisy, lol.

In the picture you can see the jubs in their boxes under the stairs and a cardboard cutout footprint of a jub. They are very compact and will take up much less space than my LaScala.

My plan is to minimalist the room as much as possible so there will be no centre channel and I will mix the centre channel @ -3dB into both of the flanking jubs.

I was going to do without a LFE but since I'm rebuilding the stairs I got one of those moments when I was measuring. The top of the 3rd stair is 24inches above the floor so I can hide the THT in a space that would be wasted. The distance from the wall to the main stair support post is 36inchs so it's do able. I will put the speaker access on the side that will be on the top and the 2 angle stairs that sit on the top that complete the 90degree corner turn can be removable but supported by the side of the THT. The lower 2 stairs can be a floating pair with some form of material to prevent rattles.

The Accoustics Engineer is due to arrive in 31.5hours.[H]

[Quiet_Hollow]

I just did a little "experimenting" with my SVS and you are correct. Once you know the sub is there, you miss it when it is gone. But, with that being said, I think if I only had the La Scalas without a sub, I could live with them and be quite happy. I don't typically listen at high SPL's, but next time I do, I'll bump the 30hz - 60hz slider on the Audio Control C101-III, 3db to 5db and see how it sounds with the sub off.

This is what I did too as I've got a component horn sub. Yeah the La Scala's will never dig like that machine can. With only the La Scalas fired up though, sliding in +5-8 dB in the 30-60Hz range is like listening to a whole new set of speakers.

From this:

To this:

Edited January 17, 2014 by Quiet_Hollow