La Scala bass (by the numbers...) [video]

[Don Richard]

Remember the 'loudness' button that used to be on everything. They did something like that. I never understood exactly what was happening, but it darn well worked when you had cheesey little speakers, because would send frequencies to the speakers that they could actually produce.

Loudness controls boost the bass at lower volume control settings and revert to flat response past half volume or so. This is to correct the bass response according to the Fletcher-Munson equal loudness curves. While not common on newer home stereo equipment it is still used on car radios and is usually non-defeatable.

[Colin]

The Klipsch Belles and LaScalas do drop off significantly below 50-Hz, making them big, wonderful bookshelf speakers! Yet there is a lot of music AND harmonics in the lower frequencies that add to the enjoyment of music and movies. Low frequency notes have overtones that extend up to the high range. Reproducing low notes accurately improves the sound of the entire spectrum. These lower frequencies require a lot of energy.

http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm

An EQ unit is several times less expensive component to add than the powerful and deep sub that Big Ole Horns require. A matched sub is less expensive, with more noticeable impact, than acoustic room treatments.

In my limited experience, I found that an old ADC equalizer (EQ) and fancy Behringer DEQ24/96 Ultracurve Pro worked best if you apply a lot less medicine than the doctor recommends. If a 6-dB boost was required, for example, then a mere three dB bump actually eased the problem while balancing the rest of the frequency spectrum better than applying the full measure. Increasing each of the frequencies to the full amount only made other frequencies worse. The sound got slow and muddied; other frequencies went out of whack. Too much 20-Hz bass, for example, overpowered the mid-bass and slopped over into the mid-range. The main thing is to flatten the peaks softly and fill-in the valleys gently.

When set-up properly, I use EQ and passive bi-amp with 60-watt class A amp on my Khorns. Even then, I still use deep and powerful sub, with dual EQ controls, to shore up the deepest notes.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0705/behringerultracurve2496.htm

[Colin]

http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Technologyleadership/Documents/White%20Papers/LoudspeakersandRoomsPt3.pdf

Love these white papers!

[Quiet_Hollow]

Setting the DEQ to mimic what my sub woofer arrangement accomplishes down to 30 Hz, in my specific circumstance*, I end up with the following:

31.5Hz +13.5

40Hz +7

50Hz +2

60Hz +5

63Hz +9

70Hz +11

80Hz +12

90Hz +2.5

160Hz +0.5

200Hz +1

* These numbers are not universal. If you want to give EQ a try without blowing the bass bins out, start with the numbers I mentioned earlier on the post. For best results use an SPL meter, test tones, and run the math. Check voltages with a multimeter.

This approximates the frequency response of the AS-EQ1 / sub / and amplifier combination. I say approximate because using solely the La Scala's, I'm at the complete mercy of room acoustics given their placement. So this arrangement can safely put 100 dB @ 31.5Hz across my sofa along with rattling everything in my living room. Yes, at that utmost limit, ~ 99 dB, there is some audible distortion that is familiar to anyone that's heard a woofer being pushed near Xmax. But, I don't listen to my system that loud with music for the sake of my hearing. So at more reasonable levels for myself, like say 85 dB, everything sounds very good still, even with Telarc stuff. I understand the subtle differences and can tell that it isn't "horn-loaded" down there, but it's a heck of a lot beefier than the raw response of the a stock La Scala and a completely reversible mod.

Short video in the works for those who are curious...

*edit* - for grammar

Edited January 17, 2014 by Quiet_Hollow

[Quiet_Hollow]

Video as promised.

http://www.megafileupload.com/en/file/327691/EQdemo-flv.html

It's a 70MB flash video. Yes, Megaupload looks like a fly-by-night FTP host with head shop and male enhancement ads, but it works. A little slow at times, but at least you'll get my video in it's entirety. Can't use YouTube for reasons we're all too familiar with. File name on the site is EAdemo.flv but will download as EQdemo.flv

[Dennie]

Hey QH, let me ask, which crossovers are you using? Stock, updated, modified?

Thanks,

Dennie

[Quiet_Hollow]

Stock AL-3's

[Dennie]

Stock AL-3's

From 1989?

No wonder you are lacking bass! Upgrade those bad boys before you do anything else.....

When I replaced my stock Type AA with new ones from Bob and Michael Crites, the speakers came to life. Sure I "thought" they sounded good with the original crossovers, boy was I wrong!

Dennie

[Quiet_Hollow]

From 1989?

Excellent catch!! Just checked the back of the speakers....yep '90. Now I've gotta change my signature and my YouTube videos. '89 was the year of a pair of AL equipped cabs I used to own. For whatever reason, the number just stuck with me. I might switch out to poly caps one of these days, but lack of bass has never been an issue at my place.

Thanks!

Did you get a chance to check out the video?

[RagingBullWinkle]

+1 on the Crites upgrade. [Y] I went with the A-4500Hz

[Dennie]

From 1989?

Excellent catch!! Just checked the back of the speakers....yep '90. Now I've gotta change my signature and my YouTube videos. '89 was the year of a pair of AL equipped cabs I used to own. For whatever reason, the number just stuck with me. I might switch out to poly caps one of these days, but lack of bass has never been an issue at my place.
Thanks!

Did you get a chance to check out the video?

Not yet on the video, but I will.

21 year old caps most likely need to be replaced, whether you think they do or not. I too thought my La Scalas sounded fine! Granted mine are 11 years older than yours, but the difference was very noticeable. I by no means am putting you down, so don't take it like that, but you have no idea how they sound with caps that are out of spec..

I listened to my La Scalas for about a year and read where people were updating or replacing their crossovers, but I knew that didn't apply to me, mine sounded fine.

What an Idiot I was! I called Bob Crites and asked if he thought I would hear a difference? He just laughed and said YES!!! I had the new crossovers in about 3 days and the speakers slowly came to life. Completely different speakers. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it was like someone took a blanket off of my speakers. The Highs and Mids were clear as a bell and the bass... was now full and solid. I do agree that a few db bump in the lower end can fill in what the La Scalas are missing, but it may be less of a "bump" when you update the crossovers.

This is just my opinion and I've been wrong about many, many things. But I think it is worth a try.

Dennie

[Dennie]

Video as promised.

http://www.megafileupload.com/en/file/327691/EQdemo-flv.html
It's a 70MB flash video. Yes, Megaupload looks like a fly-by-night FTP host with head shop and male enhancement ads, but it works. A little slow at times, but at least you'll get my video in it's entirety. Can't use YouTube for reasons we're all too familiar with. File name on the site is EAdemo.flv but will download as EQdemo.flv

Help, My computer does not know what to use to open the file and neither do I?

Thanks,

Dennie

[Quiet_Hollow]

Help, My computer does not know what to use to open the file and neither do I?

You'll need a flash video player (what YouTube uses)....and a good set of ear bud headphones or something else with good bass response down to 30Hz.

Wimpy player is a small file freeware, works well, and is cross-platform. It's what I use.

[mustang guy]

Help, My computer does not know what to use to open the file and neither do I?

You'll need a flash video player (what YouTube uses)....and a good set of ear bud headphones or something else with good bass response down to 30Hz.

Wimpy player is a small file freeware, works well, and is cross-platform. It's what I use.

VLC Player at www.videolan.org is another free player. VLC can play everything I have ever thrown at it including DVR files from a DVR hard disk. Also freeware.

[Quiet_Hollow]

For those of you that have downloaded the video....take a listen to these:

Same source material. Similar positioning. No EQ. Different tax bracket.

[RRFL]

I saw a finger print on the cabinet.[]

Excuse me but,,,, "Listen to something on Utube" ummm am I missing something here.

My thoughts always ponder on how many variations on the variables could vary on Utube.

I also saw a ripple along the edge of the cabinet with the reflected light and for me that is a fail in a full gloss finish.

The bottom end was a bass reflex design so the bass would be tardy compared to the high frequency.[6]

[Frzninvt]

I have owned all the big Heritage and have had four Klipschorn's, a La Scala and Belle's in the same room for a while. I initially had Belle's and when I replaced them with Klipschorn's the bass improvement was immediately evident. Where the La Scala shines is the speed and accuracy of the percussion attacks, that can sometimes be tubby sounding on the Klipschorn. The mid-bass punch is phenomenal and is solid to 50Hz. Mine have all been rewired, sport the dual phase plug alnico mids, 401K poly horns, and DeanG Super AA networks. With dual Velodyne HGS-15's subwoofers I would put them up against anything.

I had to downsize my system over the years and settled on La Scala's because I wanted the efficiency without having to have ideal corners (baseboard heating) I have run the DBX 3BX-DS, 5BX-DS dynamic range controllers along with the 120X-DS subharmonic synthesizer and computer controlled DBX 14/10 14-band 2/3 octave equalizer. This help tweak them anyway I desired but I have since parted with all the processing and merely dial the bass contour on my AV pre/pro to +2 and that is all I need. Probably helps that I have Cornwall's and Heresy's in the rear helping out and all my listening is in 7.2 channel mode.

I have owned four different pairs of Klipschorn's and think the La Scala is a great performer and I can get away without using the Velo subs depending on what I am listening to or watching but with the subs engaged lookout!

[formica]

OT.... but....

I had to downsize my system over the years and settled on La Scala's because I wanted the efficiency without having to have ideal corners (baseboard heating) I have run the DBX 3BX-DS, 5BX-DS dynamic range controllers along with the 120X-DS subharmonic synthesizer and computer controlled DBX 14/10 14-band 2/3 octave equalizer. This help tweak them anyway I desired but I have since parted with all the processing and merely dial the bass contour on my AV pre/pro to +2 and that is all I need. Probably helps that I have Cornwall's and Heresy's in the rear helping out and all my listening is in 7.2 channel mode.

How have you been?... I'm guessing you ended up moving.... ?

[Frzninvt]

Nope, still here. Got flooded this year twice and I was displaced for 3 1/2 weeks on 4/28. No help from insurance company or Fema as we live in a flood zone. Then VT got hit again by Irene but our place was not literally an island like it was in late April. The water completely filled the basement the first time but fortunately did not breech the upper level by just inches. Clean up took months, had to rebuild a supporting wall and get 6-8" of mud out of the basement. Rough year but it got better thank goodness we are somewhat back to normal now.

Hope you are doing well.

[Dennie]

I saw a finger print on the cabinet.

Excuse me but,,,, "Listen to something on Utube" ummm am I missing something here.

My thoughts always ponder on how many variations on the variables could vary on Utube.

I also saw a ripple along the edge of the cabinet with the reflected light and for me that is a fail in a full gloss finish.

The bottom end was a bass reflex design so the bass would be tardy compared to the high frequency.

Yeah, I started watching the video and thought to myself.... What the hell am I doing watching a video about audio on my laptop?

Last night I threw on "Hell Freezes Over" by the Eagles CD (1994 Geffen Records) and turned off the sub and boosted the bass in the 30 - 60hz range by 5db. At first I thought WOW! Kind of is like adding a sub to the bass bin of the La Scala. Interesting! [^o)]

But, it didn't take long until I just felt it sounded bloated and muddy. I knocked down the boost by 2db and still, it sounded bloated and muddy. So, I put the 30 - 60hz slider back where it belonged and there was the clean, full and solid bass that I've learned to love.

So.....

La Scalas have sub bass. For all the people contemplating buying a sub, or god forbid, physically modifying their cabs solely to listen to music..choose
wisely. I have to raise my brows when someone contemplates cutting up
their cabs, or says they can't get the bass they want out of 16 cubic
feet of bass bin.

Buy or rent an EQ and slide in 5 dB from 30-60Hz. Simple as that. What's
at your disposal? 2 fifteen inch drivers with ~8 mm xmax each, 8 square
feet of mouth, 96 dB of sensitivity in the basement in half-space, with 20 dBW RMS of headroom over one watt.
I run a sub with my pair for home theater extension, dynamics, and
precision bass management over my meager receiver. But I ran my La
Scalas solo, listening, err flat-out jamming, for 5 years no-problemo
before adding a sub. If you find the bass in a stock LaScala
lacking...EQ because it's in there.

I think this statement is wrong. La Scala's may be able to reproduce "Sub Bass" but at a cost and I am not willing to pay that price!

Also, I don't think you QH can discuss this topic accurately until you've updated your original crossovers. Because your speakers are "most likely" out of spec. and not reproducing the sound(s) PWK designed them to reproduce.

I would be curious to hear your feelings on this, once you bring your speakers back up to spec..

Respectfully,

Dennie