Pete H Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Great doesn't come close to describing this build and I'm really thrilled to see that I'm not the only one that doesn't know how to do any testing.[] Would you please get the testing figured out so I can call you next week and you can tell me how to do it. LMAO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panacea Engineering Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 Just wanted to give everyone an update on the testing. We think that we have everything finally worked out and are completely ready to start running some test. The weather has turned bitterly cold here with gusty winds, so I have to hold off on doing anything outside until it warms up a bit and calms down. Doing this outside is totally driven by the weather and this time of year is a touigh call. Normally and it has been up until yesterday morning, it is very mild here in the Charlotte area. The temperature Sunday was almost 70, but we have a pretty extensive cold front moving through the area. We will resume in warmer conditions, as I am pretty much a fair weather person......[] Thanks,. W. C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rigma Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Any update on this project? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panacea Engineering Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 Rigma, YEA, two items; Cold Weather and Time......! The weather has been lousy here for the past month. Today for example 29 degrees and windy as hell (10 to 15 gusting to 25 earlier this morning)...! Been raining and windy here for several weeks. One of the drawbacks is, when we have a nice day it has been devoted to the new building. It is almost complete, so that will free up some time. I am testing these outdoors and can only test on weekends, due to noise, the other times during the week (Industrial Neighborhood). Wish the window for quiet was larger but I am stuck with what I have. I have a concrete plant across the street and a wire manufacturer across the rail road tracks 150 feet away and constant tractor trailer traffic up and down the street. I will not even mention the frequency of the rail traffic. The wire manufactirer runs three shifts during the week, 24/5. Also the wind plays havoc on trying to get accurate readings. When I started the testing stage, I thought you could just roll them out, hook em up and place the mic, well...I have found it takes just a little more than that. Set up for everything takes about an hour and I want to be sure it is done right. It has also taken a bit to gather everything that was needed for the testing and I have finally got it all. I just received the Dayton WT3 Woofer Tester so I now have all of the hardware and software needed. As I am NO expert in testing, my learning curve is a bit extended as compared to some of the others on the Forum. I want to try and give intelligent answers to the many questions that I will get, without sounding like an idiot. Anyway, I now have NO more excuses for postponing anything and as long as the weather will coporate for a couple of days, we should be able to get started soon. I am as anxious as everybody else to find the results of the passive. I can tell you that they sound great and when compared to the Golden with normal playback, I can tell no difference. As to how far down the passive goes, I don't have that answer yet. Thanks for asking and hopefully we can get something done soon........ W. C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panacea Engineering Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 OK, Looks like I will start testing this week as things around here have finally died down a bit and I will be able to work on them after everyone in the neighborhood has gone home. The wire manufacturer has dropped back to one shift for a short period of time.......Finally some QUIET.....during the week..! Dumb question of the week......Is there any type of testing Check List that needs to be followed? Or a Testing for Dummies guide of some sorts....? I really have the feeling that I am out of my element with this.....We will toss the dice and see what turns up. I will be comparing the "A" cabinet to one of the Golden Jubilees sitting outdoors with no obstructions. The computer is charged, software loaded and hopefully all of the other tools that are needed, just the operator has the problem with what to do with it all...... ANY and ALL help with testing will be welcomed with OPEN arms. If anyone has a spare weekend and would like to make a trip to Charlotte....I can put you up and furnish all of the BUD that you can possibly drink.....![] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 WC, I am glad to see you are getting back to the "drone build". I am assuming you have have finalized your choices on woofer and throat size? My guess is that the next order of business is to set up the drone on the basss bin. One technique, especially when tuning a vented system, is to measure the bass bin impedance while tuning the vent (in your case, the drone). For this you will need a a power resistor and volt meter in addition to whatever program you are using. Perhaps others will join in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Dumb question of the week......Is there any type of testing Check List that needs to be followed? Or a Testing for Dummies guide of some sorts....? I have been working on a set of direction for this purpose, however I started with driver balancing. http://community.klipsch.com/forums/t/158186.aspx It was my hopes as well to get members input, but no such luck so far. I have talked to ALK and Lee Clinton a bit, still would like some input from JWC, DJK, and other that have done more extensive testing than I have. So far I have been very pleased with my projects, however tuning is by far the most time consuming. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 OK, Looks like I will start testing this week as things around here have finally died down a bit and I will be able to work on them after everyone in the neighborhood has gone home. The wire manufacturer has dropped back to one shift for a short period of time.......Finally some QUIET.....during the week..! Dumb question of the week......Is there any type of testing Check List that needs to be followed? Or a Testing for Dummies guide of some sorts....? I really have the feeling that I am out of my element with this.....We will toss the dice and see what turns up. I will be comparing the "A" cabinet to one of the Golden Jubilees sitting outdoors with no obstructions. The computer is charged, software loaded and hopefully all of the other tools that are needed, just the operator has the problem with what to do with it all...... ANY and ALL help with testing will be welcomed with OPEN arms. If anyone has a spare weekend and would like to make a trip to Charlotte....I can put you up and furnish all of the BUD that you can possibly drink.....! Excellent! The only thing I messed up on when I started measuring was not having the mic callibration file loaded into TrueRTA. I wish I was closer or had more free time as this is very interesting to me. BTW the other project is coming along test attempts where messy but I'll have it soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panacea Engineering Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Tom, For the sake of testing I have three Jube cabinets: Cabinet A - Loaded with two K-31's and a K-12 Passive Cabinet B - Loaded with Kappalite 3012LF's with the TC Sounds VMP 12 (no weight added) Cabinet C - Golden Jubilee (Reference) Test Equipment: Dell M6400 Precision Laptop Sioftware Loaded - REW - RTA Hardware - Dayton WT3 Woofer Tester - Tascam US-122 MK II (USB Interface) - Tascam TM 78 Mic (Super Cardiod 20-20K Hz) and Interconnects I think that is everything.... W. C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panacea Engineering Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Dave, I have been following that very closely......Of course, I would have NO input as I don't have a clue of what I am doing.......! Again, I will totally appreciate ALL of the help I can get.....rememebr...at least the BEER is FREE....! I am hoping that you guys can walk this dummy through it without too much trouble. Don't worry as I will bore you guys with questions. W. C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panacea Engineering Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Iain, Little Rock is just down the road from Charlotte, hell make a weekend out of it...I can put you up with no problem...Anyway, Fred the Golden Retriever hasn't slept on the Sleeper Sofa in a while.....He is a great foot warmer....! As to calibration of the Mic, there is some very good software included with the US 122MK II for that purpose. W. C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panacea Engineering Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Dave, I ment to mention that I am using your Eliptracs for the top end on the Drones in regular listening and I am very impressed with them. You did a great job and they are the perfect match in a two way passive set up......! W. C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 WC, My friendly advice at this point is to ask the fundamental question: What and why am I measuring? This may seem to be a stupid question, but it really is an important one and it is one that others (the advice givers) need to understand. The drone version will be, and should be, sounding different than the "reference version". Unless there is a problem, the drone version will go lower than the "reference" and will have higher efficiency (and lower distortion) than the reference. Perhaps you want to document this difference. I am not sure. IMO, the biggest challenge is to tune the drone version. I have suggested impedance measures, there may be others. However, the issue of woofer A vs woofer B, is more difficult. Is the comparison: woofer A with a drone vs woofer B without a drone? In that case, the comparison is a funny one. I guess my point is that there could be many, many different things to measure. You probably want to limit things to the most meaningful comparisons and the ones that are most useful (tweaking the cabinet). So let me ask it again, what do want to measure and why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 what do want to measure and why? Good question. Refresh my memory, are you setting these up for use with an active crossover? I know the Golden's have a passive. I will help as much as I can, however I have alot to learn myself.... What I dont know is alot. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 what do want to measure and why? one item of interest would be the stock golden jubilee bass bin vs the jublike with the passive radiator. From what I got out of this thread, one of the passive versins and the golden jubilees have the same woofers. So it would be interesting to see what and where the passive radiator is doing to the SPL levels of the jublike cabinet. Heck, you could measure the bass bins with an iphone and compare the results of both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panacea Engineering Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 Well, since it is raining and the wind is blowing....man the weather lately is really beginning to suck, big time....! Tom B. - As to the "What and Why" question, it is my intention to provide measurements that will show the difference between the Golden (reference) and the various changes done to the cabinets that I built. I had mentioned earlier that I was calling this Cabinet "C" but I will just refere to it as the Reference from now on. As mentioned earlier; Cabinet "A" has two K-31's and a K-12 passive. I can only assume that this is the configuration that was being tested at the factory so that will be my starting point. Cabinet "B" has the Kappa 3012LF woffers with the TC Sounds adjustible mass passive installed. Now that I have additional K-31's it may be better for me to swap the drivers out and use the K-31's in this cabinet along with the adjustable mass passive. I am thinking more of going this route as it will give us a comparison of the standard passive versus the adjustable passive. Cabinet "C' could have the Kappas in it along with the standard passive then we could swap out the passive for an adjustable mass. Or I could make this the cabinet to test the other passive (CSS APR12's) with the K-31's. As long as we test each combination and stick to the letter designation for the test it should not be confusing at all. There is another set of drivers that are coming (B&C) that someone wants me to try and I also have another adjustable mass passive (CSS APR 12) that can be tested. The ultimate goal is to find a combination that will lower the bottom and be distortion free, as possible. I totally understand that there may be some compromises that have to be made and I am hoping that with all of the knowledge available on this Forum WE can come up with a great combination. I am in NO hurry and I will not sacrifice quality testing with any type of time constraint. I want to try and meet the intent that the factory had in mind when they were working on this. Hope that put it in a better perspective....... Dave - I have the capability to go Active but I would rather use the passive crossovers that I have. They seem to be the logical route for me and I know for a fact with your Eliptrac and the Martinelli's that the sound produced is not comparable to anything that I have heard in the past. Both top ends provide a clarity that I personally feel that and "Audiophile" would enjoy. I could be totally off base but I would find it hard to believe that the sounds produced are any less of quality that can be derived from an active setup. As far as testing, I am the one in the crowd with the LEAST amount of experience in doing these types of things and I am relying on ALL of you to kind of walk me through it. Believe me, I can be a very good student with minimal direction. I am hoping that possibly you can provide some type of check list as to how we should proceed. In a perfect world we all could meet at an Anechoic chamber somewhere and test the hell out of them but realistically all I have is the outside to play them too. Fritz - I'm hoping that the equipment that I have assembled will provide something a little better than an iPhone in results. If I need to purchase a SPL meter, please let me know witch one that you think will provide the best results. I am not sure if REW or RTA can provide SPL, if either can there would be no need to purchase an additional meter. Someone had mentioned Impedence measurements so I do have a Dayton Woofer Tester for that. It will be very easy to connect as the hatches are very convenient to the woofer connections. Hope this answered a few questions and we can move forward with the testing. If there is anything else that I need to get for testing, please let me know. This will take a considerable amount of time as the schedule will have to be worked around several items. Wind and weather is number one on the list. I could test these in my HT room but I think the room influence will have an impact on the final outcome and we probably need that to be as neutral as possible. Thanks for your time, W. C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 If I need to purchase a SPL meter, please let me know You do not need to purchase an spl meter, the gear you purchased is more than adequate. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Hey W. C. I am very impressed with your projects and all your time/efforts to document and attention to detail..! As part of the testing and especially when it comes to investigating the lower frequencies (especially in the effective area of the Drone systems) of the various LF systems I would suggest doing ground plane measurements and near field measurements then comparing the results for insights that might be revealed with these methods. Do a google search of both methods to learn more about both methods and their limitations. The good thing is you will have a reference system (Golden Jubilee LF) to compare the various test results with. With the amount of testing you are interested in doing I might also suggest that it is going to be very important to make your measurement methods and setups relatively easy and very repeatable (ie: axis, mic-system distance, mic height...etc...) so as you change the various LF systems for measurements. I've used both lasers and measurement setup jigs which can speed up testing times and improve accuracy/repeatability. mike tn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLSamuel Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 W. C. Fascinating project. I don't think anybody has a legimate reason to have a problem as you're building for your own use and to learn what you can. The problem is when people build existing designs of others for profit. My understanding is that Paul wante to show the drone version at the CES the Jubilee debuted but Roy didn't think it was ready. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong and may already be in this thread somewhere. While as a DIY project it is probably insane to think you can match what Roy has built but who knows maybe you'll come very close and if not improve upon it may achieve the goal of better bass than a stock Jub bass bin. Or tringger some thought in Roy's mind to resolve the issues he had with it. I always thought this type of project would be fun. Or just something from scratch but not sure I have the brain power and definitely don't have the woodworking skills nor equipment should I (dramatically) improve my word working skills. Have fun and keep us posted and I may be interested in the plans or drawings of the final result more as a learning tool or if I ever improve my woodworking skills or get crazy enough to attempt such a complicated build. Can't wait to see pictures and read about the final results. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panacea Engineering Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 Ben, If you want the build sequence just send me an email to: heli001@aol.com I can not attach it to the Forum email and it is a rather large file. Let me know if you want to be added to the email list. W. C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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