m00n Posted May 7, 2002 Share Posted May 7, 2002 Ok so the volume level on my Harman Kardon starts at -60, and goes to I belive +2 or something like that. What would be the heighest volume level that I could saftly take her up to without fear of blowing something? Here's a link to the spec page for my receiver. Thanks m00n ------------------ the m00n system FRONTS: RF-7 CENTER: RC-7 SURROUNDS: RS-7 SUB: RSW-12 RECEIVER: Harman Kardon AVR 520 DVD: Toshiba SD 3205 (DD, DTS) TV: Samsung 27" Flatscreen COMPUTER: ProMedia 4.1 c>Microsoft XBOXc> f> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandern Posted May 7, 2002 Share Posted May 7, 2002 Ahh, when your pounding your music sometimes the receiver automatically shuts down. Just keep doing that and keep decreasing the volume until you can run it for your desired time with out the receiver shutting itself off. Ok maybe thats not the best way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seb Posted May 7, 2002 Share Posted May 7, 2002 higher than your earing will allow... it depends whether you're using equalization, but the volume should be very high with those RF-7s before the receiver starts clipping... ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted May 7, 2002 Author Share Posted May 7, 2002 Very high? Ok, so is -25 high? That's about as high as I have taken ma babies... But hey, I will push'em harder if they can take it without blowing something. ------------------ the m00n system FRONTS: RF-7 CENTER: RC-7 SURROUNDS: RS-7 SUB: RSW-12 RECEIVER: Harman Kardon AVR 520 DVD: Toshiba SD 3205 (DD, DTS) TV: Samsung 27" Flatscreen COMPUTER: ProMedia 4.1 c>Microsoft XBOXc> f> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougdrake Posted May 7, 2002 Share Posted May 7, 2002 m00n - I'm sure the 7's can take most anything you give them. If they blow, it will most likely be the fault of the HK, which will run out of steam at some point and go into clipping, which will fry your tweeters if it is sustained. And, it may not shut down to protect your speakers. I guess I'd have to ask, why do you want to know? Doug ------------------ My System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted May 7, 2002 Author Share Posted May 7, 2002 I want to push the speakers to the limit without blowing them. ------------------ the m00n system FRONTS: RF-7 CENTER: RC-7 SURROUNDS: RS-7 SUB: RSW-12 RECEIVER: Harman Kardon AVR 520 DVD: Toshiba SD 3205 (DD, DTS) TV: Samsung 27" Flatscreen COMPUTER: ProMedia 4.1 c>Microsoft XBOXc> f> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShapeShifter Posted May 7, 2002 Share Posted May 7, 2002 M00n, Beltone and Siemens make very good hearing aid solutions. You're gonna need them....but wait til I buy more stock! Wes ------------------ "KLIPSCH IS MUSIC"f> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted May 7, 2002 Author Share Posted May 7, 2002 So again, my receivers volume has a range of -60 to +5 or so. So are you guys saying then that -25 is NOT very loud? And that -25 IS safe? When a receiver starts clipping, is it obvious in the sound? ------------------ the m00n system FRONTS: RF-7 CENTER: RC-7 SURROUNDS: RS-7 SUB: RSW-12 RECEIVER: Harman Kardon AVR 520 DVD: Toshiba SD 3205 (DD, DTS) TV: Samsung 27" Flatscreen COMPUTER: ProMedia 4.1 c>Microsoft XBOXc> f> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted May 7, 2002 Share Posted May 7, 2002 m00n (did I spell that right?), No one can tell you that any specific setting is as loud as you can safely set your HK with your speakers. The numbered scale can only provide a rough approximation of RELATIVE volume levels. Setting the volume control at -10 does not mean it is 10 "somethings" below full power - it means that the amp, at that setting, would be putting out about 10dB less power than it would if you set it at 0. HOW MUCH POWER you're actually using will be DIFFERENT depending upon the impedence of the speakers, and will depend upon the frequency content of the music. For example. Your RF-7s are specified as having an impedence of "8 ohms". The impedence is not flat across the whole frequency spectrum - it may be very, very much higher at some frequencies, and much lower at others. Let's say you set the volume control to, uh, -32 and you play some music with a lot of energy at a frequency where the speakers impedence is quite high. You measure the actual output of the amp into this load, and find that it's putting out, say, 4 watts (which would be VERY LOUD with the RF-7, about 108dB). Now, switch to some music that has less energy at that frequency, but more at some other frequency where the speaker's impedence is much lower, play it with the same setting on the volume control, and you might measure 15 or 20 watts. The volume coming out of the speakers would be the same in both cases, but the amp and speaker would be working a lot harder in case #2. Having said all that... your HK is rated at a maximum of 85 watts / channel. The RF-7 will absorb 85 watts all day. It'll take up to 1,000 watts of short term power, and 250 watts continuously. If you turn the volume up so high that the amp starts clipping (and I doubt you could stay in the same room unless you had hearing protectors on) you MIGHT damage the tweeters by hitting them with highly distorted high frequency content, but you'd really have to try. And it would sound really, really bad when you started overdriving the HK that way - the high end would get very hard and glassy, the sound would start compressing (loud parts wouldn't sound much louder than not loud parts) - in short, you'd have to be thinking "Man, this sounds REALLY REALLY AWFUL so I guess my amp is CLIPPING COOL NOW I CAN JUST TURN IT UP SOME MORE AND WAIT UNTIL SOMETHING BREAKS..." ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted May 7, 2002 Author Share Posted May 7, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Ray Garrison: m00n (did I spell that right?), Having said all that... your HK is rated at a maximum of 85 watts / channel. Well, I have a question on that. It says 85 watts Stereo mode. I am assuming that would be times like listening to the radio or a regular music CD. Right? Then it says 75 watts fronts, center, surrounds. Is that rating when I am watching DVDs in 5.1? quote: in short, you'd have to be thinking "Man, this sounds REALLY REALLY AWFUL so I guess my amp is CLIPPING COOL NOW I CAN JUST TURN IT UP SOME MORE AND WAIT UNTIL SOMETHING BREAKS..." Na, thats what I am trying to avoid. Thanks for the in debth detail. ------------------ the m00n system FRONTS: RF-7 CENTER: RC-7 SURROUNDS: RS-7 SUB: RSW-12 RECEIVER: Harman Kardon AVR 520 DVD: Toshiba SD 3205 (DD, DTS) TV: Samsung 27" Flatscreen COMPUTER: ProMedia 4.1 c>Microsoft XBOXc> f> This message has been edited by m00n on 05-07-2002 at 07:01 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted May 7, 2002 Share Posted May 7, 2002 right moon that's the power with the amp only drivin 2 (like w/ the 2 channel stereo mode) channels vs 5 (like a 5.1 dvd). the mode determines which channels are drivin after you tell the hk which speakers you have in the initial set-up. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted May 8, 2002 Share Posted May 8, 2002 m00n, Also note that the difference in power levels between 85 and 75 watts is a smidge over 0.5dB which is basically no perceptible difference at all. If you were running the HK in multi-channel mode and had it cranked to the clipping point (75 watts), the RF-7 will be producing something close to 120dB. (120.7 if they don't run out of steam and start compressing.) Just to give you an idea of how loud that is, here's a chart I pulled down from the Colorado Springs Audiology website: 0dB: Faintest sound heard by the human ear 10dB: Normal breathing 20dB: Leaves rustling in a breeze 30dB: Whisper at five feet 40dB: Quiet residential community 50dB: Average home interior 60dB: Sewing machine 70dB: Crowded restaurant 80dB: City traffic, loud radio 90dB: Noisy restaurant, shop tools, lawn mower 100dB: Chain saw, air compressor 110dB: Motorcycle, woodworking shop 120dB: Ambulance siren, amplified rock band 130dB: Jackhammer 140dB: Jet engine at take off By switching to two channel mode and increasing the available power from 75 to 85 watts, the volume would increase from 120.7dB to 121.3dB. Assuming you could still hear anything after being exposed to levels of that magnitude ( ) I doubt you could detect any difference whatsoever between those two volume levels. ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted May 8, 2002 Author Share Posted May 8, 2002 Hmmm, thats interesting information Ray, thanks! Ya, I need to get me a sound meter so I can watch the db levels while watching movies... Just for pure curiosity value is all. ------------------ the m00n system FRONTS: RF-7 CENTER: RC-7 SURROUNDS: RS-7 SUB: RSW-12 RECEIVER: Harman Kardon AVR 520 DVD: Toshiba SD 3205 (DD, DTS) TV: Samsung 27" Flatscreen COMPUTER: ProMedia 4.1 c>Microsoft XBOXc> f> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mace Posted May 8, 2002 Share Posted May 8, 2002 mOOn, There is amp clipping and there is "clipping" of your ears. I've found that when the volume is so loud, like up above 100 or 110 dB your ears tend to distort the sound somewhat. To see if the distortion is due to your ears or due to the amp/speakers just plug your ears. If the sound is clean then your amp/speakers are OK. Stand back and enjoy the sound! Mace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BobG Posted May 8, 2002 Share Posted May 8, 2002 How do most speakers Blow? (Amp Clipping) With virtually every combination of amplifier and source component or amp/preamp/source, you will be able to overdrive the amplifier and hit clipping. In fact, if you cant make the amp clip, you cant get full power. It would be like putting a wood block under your gas pedal so you can never over rev your engine. A very crude protection method. Lower quality amps sound really ragged when they clip. Get harsh, flat sounding and generally no good. However this is when they clip to extreme. Less extreme clipping is also very bad for speakers, and its much more difficult to hear; especially when the music is loud and your ears adjust. Most speakers that are damaged are due to this problem and most people claim they never heard any distortion. High quality amps also clip but they do so in a less annoying fashion. This is still bad for speakers and trickier because you probably wont hear the clipping. Most source devices like CD players, DVD players, tuners etc. have about 1 volt of signal output so when hooked to your amp, clipping will occur at the point on the volume dial around 12:00 1:30. Occasionally, youll get a device with lower output voltage or a piece of music with low output, say a cassette tape with low recording levels. Then the source puts out less than one volt and clipping happens higher up the volume scale. Just as dangerous once you do hit clipping. The basic process is like this: speakers are air-cooled motors. They need to be moving back and forth all the time to have sufficient cooling to keep them from being destroyed. The temperature in the voice coil of a speaker seeing fairly high power can be over 200 degrees C. Thats a lot of heat and if the speaker isnt cooled, it will eventually burn the voice coil. Similar to what would happen if you drained the coolant from the engine in your car then drove for a couple of hours. Eventually the parts get too hot, and the engine seizes. When an amp clips, two things happen. The flat tops of the now-clipped waveform tell the drivers to stand still at their extremes of excursion (highest power) then move back and stand still for a moment. This standing still with high power causes rapid heating of the voice coil sending it over its safe temperature limit. The other thing about clipped signals is they start to look more like square waves and less like sine waves. Square waves contain the harmonic series of the fundamental tone and send many times the unclipped level to the tweeter and midrange drivers. So now youve got those drivers getting way too much power and way too little cooling - a deadly combination. There is no protection device at a reasonable price that will detect clipping and prevent you from damaging your speakers. You must use common sense and understand the fundamental concept of amp clipping. Remember too that playing at a loud level, then turning up the bass, or treble or sliders on an equalizer is just the same as turning up the volume control some more an amp in clipping just waiting to cook your tweeters. Klipsch high sensitivity speakers make more volume from the power you have on hand so your system plays louder before clipping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Favog Posted May 8, 2002 Share Posted May 8, 2002 Ta Daa!!! ------------------ Tom's Money Pit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted May 8, 2002 Share Posted May 8, 2002 well, Moon... I don't know much about the models of Klipsch speakers you are using, but as for a pair of k-horns being pushed by a 90 watt per channel amp: Generally, when the panes of the windows in your home are laying in pieces outside in the yard, and blood is trickling out your ears, and the cops have arrived...not because somebody called them, but because they heard the speakers a mile or so away at the police station...It is normally time to turn the volume down. I hope this gives you a hint or two ------------------ If you want to send a private message, or have already done so, be aware I have not as yet been able to retrieve them. Send e-maill instead, please...just note Klipsch forum in the heading so it doesn't get deleted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted May 9, 2002 Author Share Posted May 9, 2002 Ya I think I am going to call Harman Kardon soon. I want to find out at what average point I can expect clipping to occur givin my speakers. Hopefully they will have an answer for me. I would have to think they have some kind of benchmark test for receivers and speakers like they do for computers hardware. ------------------ the m00n system FRONTS: RF-7 CENTER: RC-7 SURROUNDS: RS-7 SUB: RSW-12 RECEIVER: Harman Kardon AVR 520 DVD: Toshiba SD 3205 (DD, DTS) TV: Samsung 27" Flatscreen COMPUTER: ProMedia 4.1 c>Microsoft XBOXc> f> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 moon, i think the varying output levels of varying input devices like the dvdp will also effect. sure there are other variables too. doubt they give you an answer based on the volume level setting. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USparc Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 Moon, We can compare the settings on our receivers if you go THX. You know by now (from the replies) that the volume level on your receiver is a relative indication. If we take all the same reference point we can compare our level settings as THX does. In most manuals of THX receivers this is explained. Here it goes: Go to the level settings of your receiver. Make sure that the receivers level is at 0dB. Play the pink noise on your receiver. With an SPL meter you have to set all your speakers at 75dB. (Yes with klipsch you have to go under the 0dB, mine are -10dB for the fronts). The 0dB is the THX reference. If you set your receiver at 0dB you are watching the move at THX reference level. Be careful!! It is damn loud!! To test if your receiver can handle this you can do the following. I know you have the RF-7 so you probably have set them to large on your receiver. Play a movie at 0dB on your receiver. Now set all your speakers to SMALL on your receiver. Cross-over at 80Hz(THX). So all below will be taken care of by the subwoofer!! Your receiver has to put out less power now. Play the movie again and compare. Are the lower frequencies better reproduced?? Is the sound better defined?? (The overall sound can be better now your receiver is not stressed by the lower part) You can also test this by connecting a powerful amp(like krell, rotel) to your receiver. Then you will know if your RF-7 will benefit the extra power. I think TheEAR can verify this one!! ------------------ ------------------------- Receiver: Pioneer VSX-909RDS DVD: Pioneer DV-525 Screen: Thomson 46" RetroProjection Front: RF-3 tFTP Rear: RF-3 tFTP Center: RC-3 tFTP SubW: KSW-12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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