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What is the heighest volume level that can be safely ran


m00n

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USparc, you play your RF3s at that level? Also what is "tFTP"?

So once, my speakers have been balanced, your saying crank the volume all the way up to 0db? Wow, that MUST be loud. I was impressed at -25db. I will give it a shot when I get a chance, but I admit, I am a little skittish about it.

Oh and by the way, why do receiver volume levels start at negative numbers and increase towards 0, rather than start at 0 and go positive?

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the m00n system

FRONTS: RF-7

CENTER: RC-7

SURROUNDS: RS-7

SUB: RSW-12

RECEIVER: Harman Kardon AVR 520

DVD: Toshiba SD 3205 (DD, DTS)

TV: Samsung 27" Flatscreen

COMPUTER: ProMedia 4.1

c>Microsoft XBOXc>

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1st i balance so that my sub setting doesn't go below 0db (flat). once i get into a neg sub setting the sub doesn't wake up as easily for low bass (this only applies if any speak is set small), because it's getting a lower output signal from the sub out. if you've ever watched a dolby 2.0 cable or sat movie at lower volume in prologic u may have experienced the sub

not waking too well.

so w/ this i balance the sub using it's output control w/ the tones. since the sub is louder than all the speaks which are already loud klipsch, i come up w/ a reference level of 88db. so to match the sub set flat in the processor, the other speaks are around +1-2db &

+5db for the C7 centers (sub 0db). i leave the lfe level flat too & rarely change that level on the tempo LFE adjuster, even for dts music dvd.

iow, the 75db reference level doesn't work for me. to do that all my speaks & sub would all have to be set way below flat. so i disregard the thx or the manuf recommended ref level & use my own boa ref level of 88db. to get their ref levels they obviously don't use such loud subs & klipsch speaks. Smile.gif

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My Home Systems Page

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Yep ShapeShifter,

bacevedo gave a good explanation. The same as I did in an other thread of moon.

Moon,

When I am "home alone" the receiver goes to 0dB.

I watched Gladiator all the way at THX reference.

At 0dB I got peaks of a close 118 dB!!!

With the pod race in star wars I got close to 120dB (peaks)!!

Ok, tFTP stands for triple FOILED TWISTED PAIR (cat 5 cable). Yes, I changed the internal wires of my RF-3's (and RC-3) with 3 FTP cables. Also my external cables are braided FTP cables. I have posted a few threads on this a wile ago in "odds and mods".

You said "I was impressed at -25db".

Did you changed the level settings on your receiver in that way that at 0dB(on the receiver) you get 75dB from each speaker like bacevedo explaned!!

the negative numbers are a logical choice since it means that your are playing XdB below the reference level. It is all a relative indication. THX defined a reference point with the 75dB.

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Receiver: Pioneer VSX-909RDS

DVD: Pioneer DV-525

Screen: Thomson 46" RetroProjection

Front: RF-3 tFTP

Rear: RF-3 tFTP

Center: RC-3 tFTP

SubW: KSW-12

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Guest BobG

Usparc, check the cover shot and review of RF-5 in the April issue of Prestige Audio Video from France. I know it's also distributed in Belgium, Greece, Luxembourg, Canada and Switzerland. I have no French, but the review is quite good.

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oh i should probably mention my b&k test tones are constant volume at their ref level of 75db. iow, i can't control the volume of the test tones.

still if i could control the tones level, i'd use a louder 85db ref level & start w/ the sub (at 0). w/ that i'd adjust the output level of the sub using it's own output control to 85db or a tad higher. then adjust the other speaks to 85db. that way assures the receiver/preamp sub level is at 0db or higher.

whatever works to this end. all i was trying to point out is beware the -db settings in your preamp for the sub. Wink.gif

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BobG,

I checked their website. It is number 72 of the magazine. Maybe I will check it out, but I rather see good reviews of the RF-3's. cwm30.gif

Just ... why the info BobG???

Boa, you are right on the sub. The receiver subwoofer level is +6 now. It wakes up very quick!! The KSW-12 is on level 6. Can't you play with this volume control to get the sub level right?? What is the level on your sub??

Btw. The 75dB problem you have is not due to THX.

It's your receiver. You can settle for -XdB for your 75dB reference point. So you know that -XdB is the THX reference level. You do that already with your 85dB reference point. It is just the way you look at it. It is all relative!!! (I get also 85dB when the receiver is at 0dB with the test tone, so the level for my fronts are -10dB to get the 75dB at 0dB receiver volume). The THX reference volume is on your receiver -10dB. right?? Smile.gif

Oeps you can't control the volume of the test tones.

Are you sure?? I thought that to with my receiver. In setup mode it goes right to the 0dB (automatic) and then plays the test tones. I couldn't change the volume with the remote. It took me a while to realize that the remote is in setup mode so the +/- buttons don't work. But there is a big volume control on the receiver itself.Smile.gif That is the way to change the pink noise level on my receiver. (maybe you did this already ...)

It really doesn't matter as long as you know what the THX reference volume is on your receiver.

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us, no the b&k just outputs tones at constant volume, can't change it no matter how much i try the volume control. Smile.gif b&k in manual says they use 75db for that constant tone level. w/ all my speaks set flat, comes out to 88db on these more efficient klipsch speaks. Wink.gif

i have no problem. just wanted to make sure others weren't setting their sub in the processor below 0db & then it wouldn't wake up as well. your +6db sub settings are even better for waking up the sub.

my sub is pretty loud even compared to the klipsch speaks. right now the sub's level dial is at about 3.5/10 & still the sub is about 3db louder than the other speaks (where i like it Biggrin.gif).

like you say, the important thing is that the speaks & sub are in balance to where you like it. a 75db reference level at my sweet spot is low/moderate levels

to me. 85db is just starting to get loud for me.

but i may have ear damage. Smile.gif

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Boa,

Can you explain again how to get your sub to "wake up" easier? Mine shuts down pretty frequently since I watch TV at relatively low volumes most of the time. Thanks

Dan

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Danartdis system

HK AVR 500

Heresy mains

Heresy rears

Academy center

JBL 4238 "sub"woofer

PE 250 watt sub amp

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dan, i just make sure i don't have the sub level setting in the receiver/prepro at below 0db. u could even start w/ the sub level higher like at +3db or something in the receiver prepro settings (wouldn't go too high on it though).

then u balance your sub w/ the other speaks using the sub itself output control. that way your sub is getting a sufficient signal from the receiver sub out.

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I don't want to stress them to the point of failure, that would be an expensive test. I just want to make them huff and puff.cwm1.gif

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the m00n system

FRONTS: RF-7

CENTER: RC-7

SURROUNDS: RS-7

SUB: RSW-12

RECEIVER: Harman Kardon AVR 520

DVD: Toshiba SD 3205 (DD, DTS)

TV: Samsung 27" Flatscreen

COMPUTER: ProMedia 4.1

c>Microsoft XBOXc>

f>

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quote:

Originally posted by m00n:

I want to push the speakers to the limit without blowing them.


Do you really have a good reason for trying to do this? If you really try to push your speakers/amp to the very threshold of damage, INEVITABLY, you are going to cross that line. If you do try this test, not only will you likely end up damaging your speakers, but you may potentially end up damaging your hearing as well. I don't see what you are going to get out of this. I strongly suggest that you rethink doing this. It is not a good idea.

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quote:

Originally posted by ShapeShifter:

imo, the risk of loss, far outweighs any possible benefits.


Perhaps I should clarify my intentions.

My reason to know all this is because I want to be able to crank them. I want to do it at a level that is NOT going to damage them. Basically I want theater volume level but not really any more than that.

I absolutly agree with you ShapeShifter on this. This is why I wanted to start this thread. I wanted to find out what a safe sustainable level was. I absolutly have no plans on pushing them to the limit to where I am going to start damaging them.

cwm1.gif

------------------

the m00n system

FRONTS: RF-7

CENTER: RC-7

SURROUNDS: RS-7

SUB: RSW-12

RECEIVER: Harman Kardon AVR 520

DVD: Toshiba SD 3205 (DD, DTS)

TV: Samsung 27" Flatscreen

COMPUTER: ProMedia 4.1

c>Microsoft XBOXc>

f>

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m00n,

I'm still of the opinion that with those speakers and that amp, you can play anything as loudly as you want and, as long as you don't hear any indication that the amp is obviously being overdriven, you won't hurt anything.

By "...any indication that the amp is obviously being overdriven..." I mean things will start to sound, well, bad. When you reach - er, IF you reach the point where the amp is being overtaxed and it just can't push any more power into the speakers, you'll hear the high end get really nasty sounding, the sound will harden up overall, it won't be subtle.

The amp is powerful enough that you won't be overdriving it to the point of destruction (speakers or amp) when playing at VERY loud levels, but it's not so powerful that it could break the speakers by overpowering them.

I'm not a Klipsch rep, of course, so you should take this comment with all due skepticism.

Oh, by the way, I do have some experience with breaking things by overdriving them... just to give you an idea of what it takes to do that...

Once upon a time, long ago and far away, back in '87, I owned a pair of the original B&W 801f speakers, which I augmented with a Dalquist SW1 subwoofer. This was probably the most musical sounding system I've ever had, but it lacked dynamics to the point where I eventually moved on to other things, ultimately winding up with Klipsch La Scalas. The biggest problem I had was with the subwoofer. It was an incredibly musical sounding sub, and extended the bass of the B&W's sufficiently deeply to keep me happy, but it wasn't the most dynamic sub going. After trying a lot of different combinations, I wound up using two of the original series Adcom GFA-555 amps. I used one in normal stereo mode driving the B&W's with about 200/watts channel. The other Adcom I used bridged into mono driving the sub. The sub was rated at a *MAXIMUM* of 75 watts continuous, 150 watts peak (told you it wasn't the most dynamic thing going.) The bridged Adcom was capable of putting more than *600* watts RMS into that load. I'd always heard that using too much power wasn't as bad as using too little, so I wasn't too concerned.

One day my bud and I were out in the driveway washing down his boat. It was a nice, sunny summer day, and I had the Dead on in the music room with the windows and doors open and the music cranked so we could listen outside. All of a sudden, I noticed there wasn't any bass. Figured I'd popped a fuse or something, so I went inside to check. Immediately noticed an acrid smell. Amps were okay, so I checked out the sub. Pushing on the woofer cone made a grating, scratchy noise. This didn't sound good. Opened up the sub. I had MELTED THE INSULATION and FUSED THE VOICE COIL into a melted mess of plastic and wire. The Dalquist dealer wanted $350 for a new driver, which wasn't happening.

Lesson learned. It's difficult to do, but you CAN break stuff by using too much power. Putting 600 watts RMS, over a kilowatt on peaks, into a speaker rated at 75 watts was too much power. Biggrin.gif

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Music is art

Audio is engineering

Ray's Music System

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m00n,

Think I'm getting closer to the page you're on. It was just the works "push the speakers to the limit" that caused me concern for your newly acquired equipment, and your hearing as well. If your levels were calibrated correctly, reaching the reference theater level should not cause your RF 7's to break a sweat. Beyond that?.....you gotta have a high threshold for discomfort or pain.

Wes

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KLIPSCH IS MUSICf>

My Systems f>s>c>

This message has been edited by ShapeShifter on 05-14-2002 at 11:06 AM

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Guest BobG

Ray, your advice and comment here is generally of the highest order and of great help to others, but in this case, I have to disagree. Advancing the volume till one hears signs of distress is a recipe for disaster. It is quite common to be blissfully unaware of amp clipping unless it's into full on, square-wave replicating, make your ears bleed distortion. Many people associate the distorted sound with high volume. (That's how a customer of mine who had La Scalas with 2 Adcom 555's in mono damaged his hearing - super clean and way too loud. No signs of distortion to indicate the dangerous volume levels. Now he hears much less than before). People need to understand that clipping is not like an on/off switch. Even a little is very bad for your speakers and impressive power ratings ( 100 watts, 1000 watts) is not a guarantee or safeguard against improper use and speaker damage. This is a great time to remind people that 1000 watts only plays two times as loud as 100 watts. Be safe, stay away from clipping.

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With my La Scalas, Parasound amps and ACT-3, my ears distort before the amps do. I'd heard it before, specifically at Grand Funk and Robin Trower concerts, but always thought ears couldn't "clip". They will! I recognize it now that I can do it at will. It starts with my Rat Shack meter showing about 110 dB average.

I too found out about overpowering speakers with my subs. VMPS rates their sub drivers max. input just below the point where they will fail. i have an Acurus A-250 driving both subs. It turns out it can clear 400 watts into the 4 ohm rating of the VMPS. I fried all 4 woofers at one time. That lesson cost me $400 with a steep discount from my sympathetic dealer.

The final consensus was that I probably wasn't clipping the amp, just melting wire and glue.

John

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Well with my denon, which is alot like the H/K starting at -60 to +10 I can go above -25, I have gone to -15. A few times more, but not for a long period of time. I however don't have my Klipsch's yet so that could make a difference being that the klipsch's will be much more efficient. I'll tell you after I get them.Wink.gif

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The 17th school is done, no more forum for me. :(

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