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Dr Morbius

Room size

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Thank you jdm56 and LarryC. I will be building an 11' x 15' by 9' high room. Thanks again!

Steve

Cornwalls are fine, but for sound quality, Klipschorns would be better, IMO. Jubs might be even better, but might get into trouble with the WAF.

Let your wife know that Klipschorns, even though even bigger than Cornwalls, tuck into the corners, and some people think they seem to take up less space.

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That is a VERY good point to ponder! When I had k-horns () at the last house, they sounded great in a 13x16 room that was actually a formal living room. (Yes, my wife is very understanding.) So even though they were in a fairly small room, the "front" room of the house, they not only sounded great, they looked great, too. The way they tuck back in the corner makes them much less obtrusive than say, a pair of La Scala's.

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Hate to harp on this, but building a house is a golden opportunity. If there is a chance you will get Klipschorns, you can build the corners of your room to be extra strong and rigid, for better bass.. If you are using 5/8" sheetrock, you can put 3/4" plywood just behind it, between the sheetrock and the studs, screwed and glued, with some glue between the sheetrock and the plywood to keep them from flexing independently. Staggered seams will help keep sound from leaking out I assume you are using 16" O.C. studs, rather than the wider spacing allowed in some areas. There should be no obstructions or flimsy areas (including windows) at least 4 feet out from the corners (some people recommend 5 feet). One author recommended some diagonal lintels in the crawl space, pushing up on the floor joists, to prevent any flexing. If you do that, you will join the ranks of those of us who have a miniture Stonehenge in their crawl space. Of course, if you have a slab that the floor boards are sitting on, you won't need that. Klipschorns can sound anywhere from good to great, but having had them in two such rooms, I can tell you I've had great results, with bass that creates a wind in the room, and flaps one's pant legs from across the room with music like Copeland's Fanfare for the Common Man. And it is so fast,tight but deep, and undistorted! People bring friends to our house and request that piece of music. My wife loves the Khorns, and even my late mother, who never was a fan of loud music when I was growing up (JBLs), had to approve this once, saying, "It's ... perfect!"

Whatever speakers you get, you may want a little absorbtion at the first reflection points (where you can see a reflection of the speaker in a mirror from the listening chairs ,,, you slide thet mirror along the side wall until you can see the speaker in the mirror, put an absorbant panel there,. But don't overdo and put in a lot of absorbant panels You should have a wall to wall carpet or sectional rugs here and there, but especially where the first foor reflection would be. Khorns, and most other Klipsch speakers like diffusion to break up flat walls. Book shelves with vases, pots and artifacts as well as books help with that. If you're handy, you can make diffusers of various kinds. I like the "Hemispheric" ones with wells that put out almost 180 degree diffusiion in too directions. They can be humg on the walls as or with pictures, If people ask, you can ascribe an artist to them, if you like. Eventhough you are not building a home studio, and studios need different charcteristics than home Listening rooms, IMO, you might benefit from Jeff Cooper's little book How to build a recording studio, but I would avoid his use of resiliant channels since they eat bass, Better to build a rigid room, then use something like Audydssey, or a few finely tuned bass traps only if neeed (I've never needed one). See also Artto's Klipschorn room on this forum..

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Would the Cornwalls be too boomy, or whatever the correct term is, or would, say the Heresy III work better in that sized room.

Both would have some issues in that sized room, but the biggest deal that I've seen with Klipsch Heritage, besides not putting them in a square-dimensioned floorplan, is having a high ceiling, which you have. This will do as much for speaker imaging, timbre, and ambience as having large dimensions horizontally. This is due to the type of midrange horn that the Heritage speakers have (e.g., the K-400 series).

A paper on preferred room dimensions as written by PWK is enclosed above.

Would the Cornwalls be too boomy, or whatever the correct term is, or would, say the Heresy III work better in that sized room?

Either speaker would work about the same in very small rooms.

...(and would I be happy with the Heresy after listening to the Cornwalls?)

I believe that you will like the Cornwall more for listening, and your wife will like the small size of the Heresy. [^o)]

I could be wrong but the Heresy's look like a scaled down Cornwall.

Well, yes and no: The Cornwall is a vented box, whilst the Heresy is an acoustic suspension box (i.e., an air spring behind the woofer by using a closed box). The Heresy is fairly amazing in that it isn't dramatically less efficient than the Cornwall--but it is less efficient and has somewhat lower "sensitivity". The Cornwall will have lower bass modulation distortion and a lower bass cutoff frequency, but the Heresy will have generally have smoother and more gradual roll-off of bass response. If you place either speaker into the corners of the room and do a little EQ to tame any FR peaks below about 200 Hz, both speakers will sound very good. The Heresy will have a much lower axis of midrange and tweeter frequencies, so you will be more restricted in how you place the speakers, furniture, and listening position in the room.

He said they are dinosaurs and if I wanted great music in that sized room to go with the RF-7 II's as they are more refined { his terms, not mine

[bs][bs][bs][bs][bs]

Sorry, my browser got the better of me... [;)]

Chris

Room Proportions extract from DOPE from HOPE!!!_searchable.pdf

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Where do you live? Maybe someone lives nearby who has Heritage and could invite you over for a listen.

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I spoke to a road-rep of Klipsch to see where I could demo either of them. He said they are dinosaurs and if I wanted great music in that sized room to go with the RF-7 II's as they are more refined { his terms, not mine }.

Is it possible he was not a real rep? Or that he is a new guy who has not had the time (or the training) to hear a Cornwall? Or that he doesn't know that the Cornwall III was "refined" --or at least changed -- in about 2006 (5 years is a mere moment in Klipsch time).

Some of this may depend on the kind of music you like. I've noticed that some Rock people rave about the Cornwall III.

When you listen to your options, make sure that the contenders are placed as recommended. You wouldn't want a Cornwall out in the room, far from the walls IMO. I've heard it sound great pushed into a corner, with a little absorption on the walls only at the first reflection points. You certainly don't want a "dead" room, though. Do you have tone controls? I know the purists don't like them, but I agree with the Speakerlab that moving the bass control back and forth between "flat" -- straight up -- and 3:00 O'clock, which may yeild different settings with different CDs, is an excercise that's worthwhile. Sometimes the treble control can help, but less often IMO. I'd much rather have a Cornwall III and tone controls than RF 7s (haven't heard the RF 7 IIs).

PWK used to recommend attending a group of concerts of different types before selecting a speaker, to "recalibrate your ears."

If there is any way to get them added to your loan (the way some credit unions will do), I bet you would be happiest with a good sub and either La Scala IIs, or new Klipschorns.

P.S. Bernard Herrman sounds great on Klipschorns!

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There is a store in NW Chicago called Simply Stereo they have the full heritage line in one room. Start with Heresy's then Cornwall's LaScalas and then K-Horns.
The fist time I did this after the K-Horns I switched to the newest top of the line RF. I looked at the owner with the WTF were they thinking look and just got a smile back.
Just my two cents but after owning the entire line my guess is you will end up with the K-Horns at some point may as well plan on it.

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On 11/6/2011 at 2:34 PM, twistedcrankcammer said:

Steve,

Paul Wilbur Klipsch wrote a paper in his "Dope from Hope" articles about the "Golden Mean Cube" as the best listening room for Klipschorns. I believe it has a 10 ft. ceiling and is 16ft. by 26ft. Alot larger then you are talking, but you asked.

Good Luck..... Roger

Roger has it right. I am building currently also. My room will be 16 x 26 with 9'6" ceilings. Paul's listening room dimensions if memory serves me right....also read in Dope from Hope years ago.

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Welcome, it sounds like your room should be about perfect, nice size room. What speakers are you're going to use in your room?

 

Just a reminder, (not that it matters) this thread is over 5 years old, but to be honest threads like this are a good thing to bring back up.

 

How's the farm? :)

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11 x 15 x 9 should be good, Just stay as far as practical from dimensions that are integer multiples of each other (12 x 12, 9 x 18, ..).

 

Here's a room I built in my old house.

 

plan1a.jpg

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For what it's worth my room is 13.4 x 16 x 8 and I have Khorns in it and they sound great, I did do a lot of work in the room though. Acoustic treatment, recently tri amping, and eq ing.

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On ‎11‎/‎22‎/‎2011 at 1:52 AM, garyrc said:

Hate to harp on this, but building a house is a golden opportunity. If there is a chance you will get Klipschorns, you can build the corners of your room to be extra strong and rigid, for better bass.. If you are using 5/8" sheetrock, you can put 3/4" plywood just behind it, between the sheetrock and the studs, screwed and glued, with some glue between the sheetrock and the plywood to keep them from flexing independently. Staggered seams will help keep sound from leaking out I assume you are using 16" O.C. studs, rather than the wider spacing allowed in some areas. There should be no obstructions or flimsy areas (including windows) at least 4 feet out from the corners (some people recommend 5 feet). One author recommended some diagonal lintels in the crawl space, pushing up on the floor joists, to prevent any flexing. If you do that, you will join the ranks of those of us who have a miniture Stonehenge in their crawl space. Of course, if you have a slab that the floor boards are sitting on, you won't need that. Klipschorns can sound anywhere from good to great, but having had them in two such rooms, I can tell you I've had great results, with bass that creates a wind in the room, and flaps one's pant legs from across the room with music like Copeland's Fanfare for the Common Man. And it is so fast,tight but deep, and undistorted! People bring friends to our house and request that piece of music. My wife loves the Khorns, and even my late mother, who never was a fan of loud music when I was growing up (JBLs), had to approve this once, saying, "It's ... perfect!"

Whatever speakers you get, you may want a little absorbtion at the first reflection points (where you can see a reflection of the speaker in a mirror from the listening chairs ,,, you slide thet mirror along the side wall until you can see the speaker in the mirror, put an absorbant panel there,. But don't overdo and put in a lot of absorbant panels You should have a wall to wall carpet or sectional rugs here and there, but especially where the first foor reflection would be. Khorns, and most other Klipsch speakers like diffusion to break up flat walls. Book shelves with vases, pots and artifacts as well as books help with that. If you're handy, you can make diffusers of various kinds. I like the "Hemispheric" ones with wells that put out almost 180 degree diffusiion in too directions. They can be humg on the walls as or with pictures, If people ask, you can ascribe an artist to them, if you like. Eventhough you are not building a home studio, and studios need different charcteristics than home Listening rooms, IMO, you might benefit from Jeff Cooper's little book How to build a recording studio, but I would avoid his use of resiliant channels since they eat bass, Better to build a rigid room, then use something like Audydssey, or a few finely tuned bass traps only if neeed (I've never needed one). See also Artto's Klipschorn room on this forum..

 

And don't use any of those old style window weights because they rattle in the walls.

JJK

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22 hours ago, dtel said:

Welcome, it sounds like your room should be about perfect, nice size room. What speakers are you're going to use in your room?

 

Just a reminder, (not that it matters) this thread is over 5 years old, but to be honest threads like this are a good thing to bring back up.

 

How's the farm? :)

 

Thanks for the welcome, been browsing the forum for a while albeit infrequently but enjoy it very much. All well on the farm if I could just give this builder a swift kick in the.... Anyway, I did not realize the thread was as old as it is until now, thanks for responding, and please chime in with comments or suggestions, I'm just an audio nut with no practical engineering or design experience and would like to forego any really obvious stupid decisions.

 

My first dedicated listening room, it will be totally below grade, inside 9.5" thick, steel reinforced concrete walls covered with 2x4s 16" OC with 5/8 sheetrock (I like the 3/4" plywood idea too),  concrete slab floor, W2W carpet, the room has no windows and is a perfect rectangle. I will have my electronics installed in a rack within a wall with access from the rear via a "closet" with a 3'0" door, which will be within a mechanical room.

 

I have a vintage pair of Klipschorns purchased from singer/songwriter John Prine back in the 70's. I have a sub I built from scratch (18"/11cft ported) recently for my new installation, which brings up another subject..do I set it directly on the slab floor (possibly a subject for a different thread or revive another old one)? I plan to bi amp my K-horns (just for fun, I know it isn't necessary) and use ALK crossovers for the MF/HF, all driven by Crown amps.

 

Thanks JJK for the wall treatment info and mirror trick, I had wondered how to determine the placement of any sort of diffusers (I reflect to Dope again) or absorbent panels, good info.

 

Thanks to all.

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1 hour ago, Ol_mcdonald said:

I'm just an audio nut with no practical engineering or design experience and would like to forego any really obvious stupid decisions.

That's me, many here have much more experience with room size and tuning so I will leave it to them to help. 

Our room sounds good, just by luck, nothing done to improve the sound.

Rough drawing not to scale for an idea.

speakers.jpg

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The sub appears to take away a perfect corner for the Khorn.  Can the sub be moved.  Also, for an 11 cu. ft sub it looks a bit thin.  I have a basement system and find that they work well for 2 ch or HT.  They are dead compared to an upstairs and care as to be taken not to over Tx the room due to loss of HF from absorption.

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Ooophs!  If it is detel's room, he has had the system for a long time and figured out everything.:rolleyes:  The sub must be similar to  the Danley TH spud but, a bit smaller.

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56 minutes ago, derrickdj1 said:

Ooophs!  If it is detel's room, he has had the system for a long time and figured out everything.:rolleyes:  The sub must be similar to  the Danley TH spud but, a bit smaller.

Your exactly right about the sub, Danley Spud clone (for now), not about the figured it out part, but it works.

The speakers are MWM/ 402 horns, not Khorns so corner placement is not all that important, but if I change subs the mwm will be slid over to the corner. 

There is 6 forte's for ht in there also, the sub is mostly for HT, but I do use it for 2 ch also, crossed at 40hz.

 

When that room was added on it was for Khorns, we just got sidetracked, for the good.

 

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On 6/17/2017 at 10:00 PM, dtel said:

Your exactly right about the sub, Danley Spud clone

I love the thin subs like you have.  They make room placement easier and can be used nearfied for people that don't have a lot of room behind the main seating.

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