Too much bass?!? (does anyone really listen at 'reference volume'?)

[Tim Currie]

So I just watched Master & Commander for the first time, Blu Ray, after reading about the epic bass scenes. After setting up the speaker levels and sub level with an SPL meter (finally).

I did use the SPL Meter app for iPhone (since I can never get around to buying the RS meter) but it's supposed to be "more accurate than the Radio Shack meter".

Anyway. First went through the receiver's test tones and set to 75db. Then popped in Avia DVD and went through it's audio setup. The Avia (played through Blu Ray player) was slightly louder but the levels were still equal. In both the Avia and the receiver test tones, the subwoofer signal came in at about 59-60db when the other channels were measuring 75-76db.

Now this was with the receiver sub level at 0db and the sub amp gain at about 1/3. I had been listening to the sub at this level for both music and movies till now, I couldn't imagine it being that much louder. I cranked the gain on the sub amp and still only got it to the low 70's with the test signals.

I put it back to around 60db and figured I was doing something wrong, because at that gain the sub kicks yer ***.


*side note* while doing the low freq sweep in Avia I learned my room has terribly UNflat bass. Big boomy bass at certain freq and some nulls as well. That'll be for another day, or another house.


Watched the movie, turned down the master volume -5db (from where I set it at 75db) and it was LOUD. The cannon scenes kicked my ***! I mean, couch shaking, windows buzzing, kick you in the chest, bass. It was awesome.

Question is: is the sub level on the test signal seriously supposed to be @ 75db as well? I can't imagine it being anywhere near that loud. I use the sub as a side table and it was literally shaking the remote off the top of it.

Bonus question: does anyone actually watch movies at 'reference level' at home? 85db? Seriously? I like my music/movies loud and I like my bass but I dunno......

Cliffs:

Finally set speaker levels w/ SPL meter.
Bass was way low, but still loud.
Watched movie, bass blew my brains out, reference level for real?

Gear:
Sony ES receiever @120 wpc
Klipcsh KLF-20 mains
SVS PB12-2ISD

[Audible Nectar]

Many films have the bass track playing at 10db too high, especially on certain processors (and it's obvious when this is the case), so I just turn the bass/LFE level down accordingly.

My "BIG" improvement in bass response, though, was using an EQ on the bass to cut the peaks down in the response. I used a mic setup and Behringer Feedback Destroyer as a parametric EQ (you can use others) over a two day tweak session to get those peaks in the response "cut down". Before the EQ was installed on my two JBL 4638 cabs (each with 2 15" JBL pro theater woofers) they sounded like uncontrollable beasts, overdone and not so clean....but once EQ'd my theater now gives bass that is fast and accurate, with a depth and effortlessness that sounds like there is no additions at all. You can't "hear" the subs, you hear a seamless SYSTEM, and when done properleh, the "scale" of the performance is INCREDIBLE.

A newer preamp with the "Audessy" function (very nice EQ/room analyzer feature on newer pre-pros) can also be a huge help too, or so I understand, but haven't used one in my system here at home.

The bottom line though is that a good sub setup should sound seamless, where a listener who didn't see the subs would think all the bass is coming from your mains. Improperly balanced subs "stick out" sonically, where good subs blend in while adding scale to the performance.

[StephenM]

I did use the SPL Meter app for iPhone (since I can never get around to buying the RS meter) but it's supposed to be "more accurate than the Radio Shack meter".

I seriously doubt that, especially in the low bass. And frankly, even the Rat Shack meter is horribly unreliable in the low bass, although there are some correction tables floating around.

Question is: is the sub level on the test signal seriously supposed to be @ 75db as well?

Yes, but your phone isn't a useful tool in measuring whether you're actually at 75dB or not.

Bonus question: does anyone actually watch movies at 'reference level' at home?

-20dB is as high as I go.

[psg]

Bonus question: does anyone actually watch movies at 'reference level' at home? 85db? Seriously? I like my music/movies loud and I like my bass but I dunno......

Some do. I do only for demos. Typically it's 7 dB down for action movies to as much as 20 dB down.

[formica]

I did use the SPL Meter app for iPhone (since I can never get around to buying the RS meter) but it's supposed to be "more accurate than the Radio Shack meter".

I seriously doubt that, especially in the low bass. And frankly, even the Rat Shack meter is horribly unreliable in the low bass, although there are some correction tables floating around.

Question is: is the sub level on the test signal seriously supposed to be @ 75db as well?

Yes, but your phone isn't a useful tool in measuring whether you're actually at 75dB or not.

Bonus question: does anyone actually watch movies at 'reference level' at home?

-20dB is as high as I go.

Ditto StephenM... I doubt the iphone has a very flat responce which is key when balancing mains to subwoofers... The mic is geared to to sendering clear voice phone calls. I can say from experiance that video clips recorded with my iPhone have almost no bass. ROb

[JJkizak]

I probably use the same as you for movies but for concerts I pump it up to 98db SPL.

JJK

[cornfedksboy]

My sub volume is down about 9 db from the rest of my set-up, but I use two subs, so maybe a net of 6 db lower than my mains. In most applications this is about right, but some BRD I still have to tweak +/- 5 db. I generally listen at Reference - 8 to -15 db. Even though the 85ish db rating is supposed to be standard, there is much EQing that occurs with produced movies so that 100db bass might come in for folks with bose systems or w/o any external speakers can get some of the action. This causes boomyness in a good HT application. Also, if you aren't in a BIG space, there is alot of room reflections (even after correction) which makes the sound seem louder. Turning it down from Reference levels is usually a must in a theater room under 3000 cubic foot.

[StephenM]

85db? Seriously?

Just as a clarification, Reference Level calls for 85dB average levels on the satellite channels (front, center, surrounds) with peaks of up to 105dB. On the LFE channel, peaks can hit 115dB.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_2/feature-article-misunderstood-lfe-channel-april-2000.html

[Quiet_Hollow]

*side note* while doing the low freq sweep in Avia I learned my room has terribly UNflat bass. Big boomy bass at certain freq and some nulls as well. That'll be for another day, or another house.

Until that day comes, you can expect less than ideal performance. EQ is that big of a deal.

[Quiet_Hollow]

*duplicate post*

[twistedcrankcammer]

So I just watched Master & Commander for the first time, Blu Ray, after reading about the epic bass scenes. After setting up the speaker levels and sub level with an SPL meter (finally).

I did use the SPL Meter app for iPhone (since I can never get around to buying the RS meter) but it's supposed to be "more accurate than the Radio Shack meter".

Anyway. First went through the receiver's test tones and set to 75db. Then popped in Avia DVD and went through it's audio setup. The Avia (played through Blu Ray player) was slightly louder but the levels were still equal. In both the Avia and the receiver test tones, the subwoofer signal came in at about 59-60db when the other channels were measuring 75-76db.

Now this was with the receiver sub level at 0db and the sub amp gain at about 1/3. I had been listening to the sub at this level for both music and movies till now, I couldn't imagine it being that much louder. I cranked the gain on the sub amp and still only got it to the low 70's with the test signals.

I put it back to around 60db and figured I was doing something wrong, because at that gain the sub kicks yer ***.


*side note* while doing the low freq sweep in Avia I learned my room has terribly UNflat bass. Big boomy bass at certain freq and some nulls as well. That'll be for another day, or another house.


Watched the movie, turned down the master volume -5db (from where I set it at 75db) and it was LOUD. The cannon scenes kicked my ***! I mean, couch shaking, windows buzzing, kick you in the chest, bass. It was awesome.

Question is: is the sub level on the test signal seriously supposed to be @ 75db as well? I can't imagine it being anywhere near that loud. I use the sub as a side table and it was literally shaking the remote off the top of it.

Bonus question: does anyone actually watch movies at 'reference level' at home? 85db? Seriously? I like my music/movies loud and I like my bass but I dunno......

Cliffs:

Finally set speaker levels w/ SPL meter.
Bass was way low, but still loud.
Watched movie, bass blew my brains out, reference level for real?

Gear:
Sony ES receiever @120 wpc
Klipcsh KLF-20 mains
SVS PB12-2ISD

Depends if the wife and kids are home.

If I'm alone, I shread reference volume levels. I love to have people over as well, and play the shooting seens from Open Range through four 18 inch subs. I usually scare the shlt out of someone. []

Roger

[StephenM]

If I'm alone, I shread reference volume levels.

One should note Roger's location to put that into context []

[onthefenceman]

Bonus question: does anyone actually watch movies at 'reference level' at home? 85db? Seriously? I like my music/movies loud and I like my bass but I dunno......

I'm much more likely to listen to music loud for a few songs in a row than for a movie. Frankly I think the dynamic range on most movies is relatively poor-- the dialogue can be all but inaudible if the effects are at a reasonable volume. Sometimes I end up using dynamic compression specifically for this reason..

[nezff]

never too much bass. your phone is terrible for a spl meter.

[MikeFord]

I like to tune to flat with band limited noise, try some different locations for the sub if some frequencies seem too hot, then live with it a week or two before adjusting to taste. Its your system so ultimately you need to be pleased not some meter.

One big caution with setup is that a single setting "wrong" may make a lot of other settings goofy, so I generally turn everything I don't understand off.

If you can localize the subwoofer, something is wrong, typically distortion in the subwoofer as the fundamental frequencies are low enough the human ear doesn't localize them. The harmonics created by distortion are what you localize with.

[Heritage_Head]

So I just watched Master & Commander for the first time, Blu Ray, after reading about the epic bass scenes. After setting up the speaker levels and sub level with an SPL meter (finally).

I did use the SPL Meter app for iPhone (since I can never get around to buying the RS meter) but it's supposed to be "more accurate than the Radio Shack meter".

Anyway. First went through the receiver's test tones and set to 75db. Then popped in Avia DVD and went through it's audio setup. The Avia (played through Blu Ray player) was slightly louder but the levels were still equal. In both the Avia and the receiver test tones, the subwoofer signal came in at about 59-60db when the other channels were measuring 75-76db.

Now this was with the receiver sub level at 0db and the sub amp gain at about 1/3. I had been listening to the sub at this level for both music and movies till now, I couldn't imagine it being that much louder. I cranked the gain on the sub amp and still only got it to the low 70's with the test signals.

I put it back to around 60db and figured I was doing something wrong, because at that gain the sub kicks yer ***.

*side note* while doing the low freq sweep in Avia I learned my room has terribly UNflat bass. Big boomy bass at certain freq and some nulls as well. That'll be for another day, or another house.

Watched the movie, turned down the master volume -5db (from where I set it at 75db) and it was LOUD. The cannon scenes kicked my ***! I mean, couch shaking, windows buzzing, kick you in the chest, bass. It was awesome.

Question is: is the sub level on the test signal seriously supposed to be @ 75db as well? I can't imagine it being anywhere near that loud. I use the sub as a side table and it was literally shaking the remote off the top of it.

Bonus question: does anyone actually watch movies at 'reference level' at home? 85db? Seriously? I like my music/movies loud and I like my bass but I dunno......

Cliffs:

Finally set speaker levels w/ SPL meter.

Bass was way low, but still loud.

Watched movie, bass blew my brains out, reference level for real?

Gear:

Sony ES receiever @120 wpc

Klipcsh KLF-20 mains

SVS PB12-2ISD

If you’re using your sub as a table and you have the remote

on it. I’m guessing the sub is pretty close to your main LP (like a few feet

away). Move the sub away from your LP if you don’t like how much bass you’re

getting. Sub placement is everything.

[tragusa3]

I've calibrated with a calibrated mic and REW, so I'm confident in my levels. All channels at 75db. My subs, however, are EQ'd to be hot below 20hz. My typical listening for movies is -10db MV. At that volume I will peak at 115db during action scenes. I'm confused as to why I hit these peaks when I theoretically should be 10db lower? It must be the boost down low. Therefore, sub response and EQ curve will effect your results even when levels are balanced. Sorry, probably obvious to most, but I'm thinking it through out loud.

[StephenM]

My typical listening for movies is -10db MV. At that volume I will peak at 115db during action scenes. I'm confused as to why I hit these peaks when I theoretically should be 10db lower?

105dB would be the peak of JUST the LFE channel. If the seven other channels all have a bass peak at the same time (technically, they are all expected to be full range), and presuming your speakers are set to small, thus rerouting their bass to your subwoofer, you get 105 + 95 + 95 + 95 +95 +95 +95 +95, in phase. Funny enough, this adds to 115.1dB.

http://www.doctorproaudio.com/doctor/calculadores_en.htm

[twistedcrankcammer]

My typical listening for movies is -10db MV. At that volume I will peak at 115db during action scenes. I'm confused as to why I hit these peaks when I theoretically should be 10db lower?

105dB would be the peak of JUST the LFE channel. If the seven other channels all have a bass peak at the same time (technically, they are all expected to be full range), and presuming your speakers are set to small, thus rerouting their bass to your subwoofer, you get 105 + 95 + 95 + 95 +95 +95 +95 +95, in phase. Funny enough, this adds to 115.1dB.

http://www.doctorproaudio.com/doctor/calculadores_en.htm

StephenM,

Your math does not compute for me. It takes twice as much output to go up 3 dB. If all 7 speakers were putting out 105dB like the sub, that would be 105dB times 8.

So.... 105dB + 105dB = twice the output = 108dB,

So.... (105dB + 105dB) + (105dB + 105 dB) = double the output = 111dB

So.... (105dB + 105dB + 105dB + 105dB) + (105dB + 105dB + 105dB + 105dB) = double the output = 114dB, which is < 115.1dB

Now then, if we take 7 speakers putting out 95dB and one sub putting out 105dB we get,

95dB + 95dB = double the output = 98dB

So.... (95dB + 95dB) + (95dB + 95dB) = 101dB

So.... (95dB + 95dB + 95 dB + 95dB) + (95dB + 95dB + 95dB) = less than double the output = less than 104dB

So.... the 105 dB sub + <104dB = less than double = <108dB total output, not 115.1dB

Am I missing something here, or is your math in error....

Roger

[StephenM]

Your math does not compute for me. It takes twice as much output to go up 3 dB...Am I missing something here, or is your math in error....

It's a matter of phase/coherent sources.

95dB + 95dB = 98dB when the sources are out of phase/random.

but....

95dB + 95dB = 101dB if the sources are coherent/in phase. Since I'm talking about summing the bass from all channels (LFE + satellite channels) to the subwoofer, we're dealing with a coherent source.