RF 82's just don't deliver enough bass :(

[StephenM]

Braveheart: Did you run the YPAO calibration routine? How is your system set up in the room?

[BraveHeart]

I did ran YPAO, but I only use it for getting the distance setting, rest I just ignore e.g. level setting, parametric eq, etc. Coz YPAO sets levels to +3 on fronts including center and arnd +2 on surrounds. My mains are 6 feet apart towed in toward the sweet spot and also the surrounds are equidistant from the listening position. But i've also saved unaltered YPAO settings in memory to compare with my own for test purposes, but no significant difference in terms of SQ.

Then I manually calibrate my system to 70 db using avr internal test tones keeping the volume where it shows at -10db on the screen. Coz that way I am able to set the speaker levels +/- 1db from the center position including the sub in order to not strain the avr. I always keep sub 4-5 db hotter and calibrate it to a house curve with approximately 5db slope per octave from 100 Hz down to 28 hz and a gentle rolloff, which is pretty impressive for SUB-12. I set the crossover on avr to 90hz and bypass the same on the sub. Also, I am using BFD 1124p to tame the sub.

[willland]

I am hugely disappointed with the Yammy / Klipsch combo. Sorry but that's more than my 2 cents down the drain for no gain but tonnes of pain.

BraveHart,

Don't go write off a whole line of speakers because of the Yamaha not having enough ooomph to drive them properly. It must be something in the settings. Youthman had a Yamaha RX-V1800(140w/ch in stereo) driving his RF-83 system and it sounded pretty good but did not have the bass driving ability as it does now by him adding a Parasound 2205(220w/ch all channels driven) amp.

I have a neighbor with an RF-82 system driving it with a Pioneer Elite receiver(140w/ch in stereo) and the bass response is fantastic. One caveat, his seating position is only 7.5 feet away from his RF-82's in a bonus room with 7 foot ceilings.

My RF-63's did not really respond down low until I added a 200w/ch(all channels driven) B&K amp to the mix. Now added an Acurus A250(250w/ch) to my system and it responded even more with a thump and punch that I did not know they had.

Bill

[BraveHeart]

I get your point. My listening position is about 10 feet from the speakers. Anyway, I will try every option to save me some extra bucks. Will only venture into seperate amp if nothing works. Thanx anyway for sharing the tips....

One more thing, do you think cable oxidation over time can impede clean signal feed to speakers from AVR causing degraded sound? I'm using 12 gauge cable for all speakers, but the ends have become oxidized over the course of 2 years.

[SonicSeeker]

I run 5 RF-7II'S an SVS pb13 ultra and 6 KSP-S6 surrounds I have the flagship RX-Z11 Yamaha and I have the same issue no matter what I do. The movies are amazing when songs play but regular stereo or pure direct is no where near as tight or full,and I have tried everything with this amp. It sounds good just not as good as it should so I have to say that it is the Yamaha especially since it sounds so much better on movie soundtracks. Just my opinion.

[StephenM]

Hi BraveHeart:

If your RF-82s are only 6 feet apart, and you're 10 feet from them, you might try to space them out a little further. How far are they from the back and side walls?

One more thing, do you think cable oxidation over time can impede clean signal feed to speakers from AVR causing degraded sound? I'm using 12 gauge cable for all speakers, but the ends have become oxidized over the course of 2 years.

It certainly doesn't hurt to trim the ends a little to get a fresh contact.

[Bleeding]

The movies are amazing when songs play but regular stereo or pure direct is no where near as tight or full,and I have tried everything with this amp. It sounds good just not as good as it should.

Yes that exactly is the same problem like mine. Have you ever tried another AVR with your speakers?

@Braveheart, have I understood you right that your issue is not only limited to bass and deep bass frequencies but also mids and heights sound muffled?

@Stephen sorry no I didn't had a chance yet to turn up my volume very loud as I come home late after work and won't have my neighbours go through their roof ... hopefully I find a chance this weekend to try this. But if this is the reason, why does it sound so well when watching movies, even on much lower volumes than on what I normally listen to music?

[StephenM]

But if this is the reason, why does it sound so well when watching movies, even on much lower volumes than on what I normally listen to music?

First thing that comes to mind is dynamic range.

Most movies are mastered in such a way that when set to "reference level", average levels are around 85dB, whereas peak levels on the satellite channels can hit 105dB and the LFE channel can hit up to 115dB. Theoretically, if 5 channels and the LFE channel peaked at once and you had your bass rerouted to your subwoofer, they could sum in phase with the LFE channel and you would yield a 123dB peak from your subwoofer. Supposing you were listening at -20dB below reference, average levels would only be 65dB, ie not particularly loud, but you could still see peaks in excess of 100dB, which isn't half bad

Moving on to music, you find something a bit different. While some audiophile oriented outfits do still master CDs with a useful amount of dynamic range, the "loudness wars" have taken a toll as to how much dynamic range you'll find in your average pop release.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

Suffice it to say, 10dB of dynamic range wouldn't be unheard of in a pop song. Why does it matter? Because if your average levels are at 75dB, a peak from say, a kick drum, is only going to reach 85dB. Going back and comparing to our movie example at -20dB versus this music example, the average level of the music will be 10dB higher, which you will perceive as being twice as loud. Going to the peak, the music will only hit 85dB versus the movie's 103dB. That's a very significant variation, and could potentially explain the difference.

[SonicSeeker]

No I have not. I have klipschorns and Mcintosh gear for two channel now so it is not a real problem anymore.

[BraveHeart]

Yes.....simply put; no clarity at all. Everything mixed up sort of like an anaemic and strangulated response

[elitedemo]

Yes.....simply put; no clarity at all. Everything mixed up sort of like an anaemic and strangulated response

82s arent going to shake you til your blue in the face but they will have clarity, my first receiver was a yamaha, and it will be the last yamaha i ever own, it was dull, lifeless, and a waste of money

i like marantz and would recommend if your staying with receivers

[BraveHeart]

I've recalibrated my system, switched off all PEQ on all channels. I watch movies using Straight setting on the avr, so that yammy has no influence whatsoever on the input signal and it outputs purest feed to all the speakers without colouring.

Did I notice improvement? ...... YES. Channel seperation and subtle effects are pronounced.
Does yammy have enough power to drive RF-82 II in 5.1 setup? ..... Big NOOOOO. I say that coz the response is still anaemic and I need to dial in volume to the same level (-10db i.e. 70 db). I would normally listen at -15db or -20db on my old crappy yamaha speakers and I have to dial in the same volume level with Klipsch. So, it clearly shows either the speakers are not efficient at all OR I bet RX-V3900 does not have enough juice to drive them. I guess 60-80 watts average output on avr is still over-stated and actually it's below that even.

So, one phrase...... RX-V3900 is hugely over praised and priced coz the cost to benefit ratio doesn't justify the price. (Just my opinion)

I think I will need to add outboard amp to get full performance from RF-82 II. I sure will wait for the speakers to break in.

[CECAA850]

I think I will need to add outboard amp to get full performance from RF-82 II. I sure will wait for the speakers to break in.

No need to wait from the speakers prospective.

[BraveHeart]

I have a vintage seperates Technics cassette deck. It's biting dust in the store. I want to take the amp (Technics SE-9021 60 wpc @8 ohms)out of the rig and use it as external amp to power the mains.

The amp is in perfect working condition and original shape. I was thinking of buying external amp, but thought why not give this a shot. Coz if it works, it will save me a lot of money.

Any thoughts on whether it would work???

[Bleeding]

First thing that comes to mind is dynamic range.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

Thanks Stephen for your explainations. I know about the loudness war as I suffered too from that problem over the last couple of years. It could be one of the reasons but I'm not entirely sure it's the only explanation of why I'm lacking bass in stereo mode. That's because mostly pretty recent recordings, for example Dave Matthew's "Big Whisky and the Gru Grux King", do actually have at least an acceptable amount of bass when playing while older recordings, from the 80's for example, are all bad regarding bass. And on those recordings, the loudness wars were rather in the beginning and music was not "stored" as loud on the CD as today.

Also, listening to music over FM radio on my Yamaha, the bass is also stronger than from CD - althought radio stations normally do raise the loudness even more. Of course FM sound is overall bad, but at least I can hear some bass there. Of course it's no dynamic sound and a kick drum can still be barely heard out of all the other sound.

I also have some SACDs which are known not to suffer that much from the loudness wars, and yes, sound is better and bass is a bit stronger, but still far from what I would expect.

I also tried listening at a - for me - very loud -10 db level on my AVR, and bass really doesn't fill in ... mainly the heights get even more overwhelming while bass still can't be heared out of the sound clearely.

[Bleeding]

Yes.....simply put; no clarity at all. Everything mixed up sort of like an anaemic and strangulated response

That's really strange. With my RX-V3900 and my RF-82s clarity is fantastic. It's just lacking clarity and power on bass frequencies and only when listening to stereo music. And I consider myself to be very sensitive when it comes to clarity in sound.

[garyrc]

Bleeding,

Did anyone mention trying putting your speakers in the room corners?
It's worth a try. Some people object because corner placement can
screw up the imaging, but this can be largely overcome by putting some
absorption on the walls in the corner. Push the speakers nearly all the
way back in the corner, then put the absorption on the walls on either
side of the midrange/high horn. What you want would be panels that do
next to nothing below about 250 Hz (the specs are online on the
manufacturer's website), so the bass will not be attenuated, but the
mids and highs will not be reflected. I would not have any absorption
near the ports, and make sure to leave clear pathways from the
rear-firing ports out to the front. What you want to stop are midrange
and treble reflections off the side walls, while at the same time
boosting the impact and potential SPL of the bass. You could experiment
pulling the speakers out a bit, or pushing them back to almost touch
the walls. Paul Klipsch believed that nearly any speaker will have
improved bass response when pressed into a corner. As he pointed out,
corner placement will be like replacing a 100 wt. amplifier with a 400
wt. amplifier, compared to the speakers sitting out in the room, away
from the walls.

Also, all rooms have zones of weak bass and strong bass. Did you try moving the listening chairs forward or back?

Klipsch
speakers tend to sound bright. Boosting the bass someway or another
can be perceived as the same as pulling down the midrange and treble.
If you have an equalizer, you could pull down the midrange, and smooth
out the room/speaker response, which, in your case might make the bass
proportionally louder than before. Perhaps the best thing to do is to
get a subwoofer. It took me a long time to believe in subwoofers, but
now I do. A subwoofer plus Audyssey might solve your problem, but if
you go that way, be sure the Audyssey microphone is isolated from the
floor (e.g., with couch cushions), or the bass vibration traveling
through the floor will shake the microphone, and result in the bass being
turned down. If you are a bass freak and you use Audyssey, you
temporarily can turn the subwoofer volume (with the control right on the
subwoofer) down by 6 or 8 dB, then run Audyssey, then turn the sub control back up,
and you will have increased the bass quite a bit. Without Audyssey,
you could find the natural blend volume of the sub and the RF 82s with a
SPL meter, then arbitrarily turn the control on the sub up.

I find that modern movies tend to have good bass, but a disturbing number of CDs do not.

[BraveHeart]

Bleeding......since we both are in the same predicament, I give you honest, straight, and a bit painful verdict on RX-V3900 and Klipsch RF-82 II.....add an outboard amplifier. There is no way you can get the sort of performance RF-82 II are capable of with this receiver. It is way way way underpowered. Also, note that RF-82 II are NOT, i repeat, they are NOT at all efficient speakers. They do require some serious power boost to perform to their best.

Here's what I did.....I bought a 1987 model brand new Sansui B-1000 (75 wpc) stereo power amp. I added it to my system. I am running my surrounds (RF-52 II 100 wpc) of it. This freed up more power for the fronts.

Result : Fantastic for movies, better for stereo music ..... with the new available power, but still I believe yammy is nowhere near the advertised 140 wpc. You do require an outboard amp. Get some good 170-200 wpc 2-channel amp. Look into Emotiva XPA-2 or Rotel 1582. I will save up some money for Rotel 1582, coz that is easily available in this part of the world from an authoroised dealer.

Good luck.

[garyrc]

There is no way you can get the sort of performance RF-82 II are capable of with this receiver. It is way way way underpowered. Also, note that RF-82 II are NOT, i repeat, they are NOT at all efficient speakers. They do require some serious power boost to perform to their best.

This is strange, but I've run into it before. While I agree that RF-82 IIs need a relatively powerful amp to
sound their best, it turns out they ARE quite efficient compared to the
norm. The typical sensitivity of most speakers -- a modal figure, the
figure you tend to see most often -- is 90 dB per 2.83 volts @ 1 Meter.
Here we have the rated sensitivity of the RF-82 II, from the Klipsch spec sheet: SENSITIVITY:
98dB @ 2.83V / 1M. I think the midrange reflects this efficiency, but the woofers seem to need to be played rather loudly to "get going." I'm not familiar
with the RX-V3900, but if it is anything like most AV receivers, its
power ratings are inflated. It seems to me that a good 100 watt RMS per channel (all channels operating) receiver or power amplifier would be enough. I might go even higher.

[StephenM]

I think the midrange reflects this efficiency, but the woofers seem to need to be played rather loudly to "get going."

The woofers are likely to be as sensitive, but not necessarily as efficient as the horn tweeter. IOW, with 2.83 volts, they probably do approach the rated sensitivity, but they are also likely drawing much more than 1 watt to do so. How much more of course depends on the impedance curve.