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Heresy Mods


TP143

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Hi all,

I am a proud new owner of some 1980 Heresy 1's and am interested in dabbling in some of the modification/regular maintenance ideas I have read about on these forums. First of all, I am completely new to this idea and have little audio knowledge so I apologize in advance for the naiveness.

All parts are original according to the original owner I purchased these from. After first listen I find these speakers, as many do according to my research, shrill and lacking in bass. I am interested in hearing your ideas for toning the shrillness down (my biggest concern) and improving the depth of the bass (a lesser concern). So far I have read stuffing the cabinets (but I am not sure what material - please suggest), applying toiletpaper over the squaker opening, applying puddy material to the outside of the horns (please suggest material), replacing the capacitors (this is where I really need suggestions and elementary level instructions on how to). I know my crossover network is "E", not "E2"and I have read making this upgrade is simple but please let me know if worth the effort.

Any other cheap suggestions you have are greatly appreciated.

Also, can someone please explain what the parts inside the cabinets are called, their purpose, and if they need replaced after 30 years.

Thanks!

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Welcome to the forum! I love my Heresy's. I have what you do, and I don't feel they lack in bass or that they are shrill. The first two receivers I had them hooked to were solid state and quite frankly cheesey sounding in the Heresy's. Then I bought an old Pioneer tube receiver from a forum member here, and wow they sound good. Those solid state units I had them hooked to were not very good units.

What do you have your speakers hooked up to? I can attest to the fact that my Heresy's sing best with tubes. I have not had them hooked to any of my Integra equipment, so I really don't know if that is all it is.

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I currenly have them hooked up to a Panasonic XR55, which is known to be a little bright. I have an old Marantz 1122DC amp that I am thinking about bringing out. Can someone explain what the two metal objects are inside the cabinets, along with the two sticky-looking objects?

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Yes, these are what I was asking about. Thanks!

As for recommended maintenance, is it recommended that I replace any of these parts? Also, getting back to my original question, I see many recommendations for capacitor upgrades to tone down the shrillness. Does anyone have recommendations to the parts I need to purchase and instructions on how to install?

Thanks again

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I wouldn't play with the values in the crossover. You may very well find that the new caps will sound better and I would do that first. As a second option, the diaphragms of the K77 tweeters may need replacing. You have a choice here. Bob Crites site offers the parts to rebuild the tweeters and he also offers a complete replacement tweeter for $160/pair.

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I really would like to tame the brightness.

Can you describe or show a picture of the room that they're in, i.e., the distance to the:
  1. side walls
  2. front wall
  3. floor
  4. ceiling

...for the left and right speaker.

Also, what is on the floor (i.e., carpet) and is there anything between the two speakers in the way of furniture, racks, electronics or flat screen TV? It may be strange to you, but Klipsch Heritage speakers are acoustically sensitive to their surroundings much more than they are electrically out-of-balance in terms of crossover tweaks, assuming the crossover's capacitors are in good shape.

A bright-sounding Heresy is probably reflecting a lot of acoustic energy off of nearby objects, or it's woofer is not coupling well to either the front wall or corners acoustically because it is too far from the floor, a corner, or front wall. Air gaps under the speakers in the form of speaker stands also will kill bass response quite effectively.

Chris

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I will get exact measurements tonight but off memory they are sitting on a rug (but do have built in 1" risers) about 2-3 feet from the back wall and 4 feet from the side wall, with maybe 3 feet in between each one with nothing in between. My living room is about 12 feet wide by 25 feet long and they sit on the short wall and point into the lengthly living room. In between the right speaker and wall (about 4 feet) is my audio rack so there probably is only a foot between the speaker and the rack, but the speaker is further out in the room than the rack so they are not directly side-by-side. I have 10 foot ceilings, hardwood floors with multiple rugs, and many decorative tables,couches, paintings spread around the living room.

On a side note, I have read quite a bit about filling the cabinets with polyfill. Has anyone done this and, if so, did it improve sound in your opinion? If so, how thick do you pack it and is there concern with the polyfill touching the backs of the components or the crossover network?

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I have a 12x16 room. My Heresy IIIs are in the corners of the short wall angled to the sweet spot which is 12 ft out from the short wall. With the Heresy placed as you have them there is no wall reinforcement, so I am not surprised the bass is thin. Push them back so they at least have floor/back wall reinforcement.

I added 1 in acoustic foam to the back, top and left sides of my Heresy I center channel.

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2-3 feet from the back wall and 4 feet from the side wall

One suggestion is to move them toward the corners - to within about 18 inches of the corner itself, then listen.

The high ceiling is good (10 feet), but anything other than a wall within about 2-3 feet of them might create early reflection issues. You could simpy try placing a thick blanket, quilt, or comforter over the rack and listen. I would try putting a bit more absorbent material down on the floor and maybe temporarily tacking up something absorbent on the side wall close to the speakers, then listen again.

All of these suggestions should change the timbre balance of the Heresies. You should also get a more defined stereo image, but the room will feel very slightly smaller.

If they are still too bright, and the capacitors in the crossovers have been replaced within the last 10 years of so, then you are probably looking at EQ, trying another amp, or even perhaps (after all else fails), going to something like Crites tweeters.You're not using tube amplfiers, are you?

One dimension that I forgot to ask for is the distance from the speakers to your listening position(s).

Chris

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I wouldn't play with the values in the crossover. You may very well find that the new caps will sound better and I would do that first. As a second option, the diaphragms of the K77 tweeters may need replacing. You have a choice here. Bob Crites site offers the parts to rebuild the tweeters and he also offers a complete replacement tweeter for $160/pair.

It is very unlikely that there is EVER any damage to diaphragms of K77's in a heresy. Since the autoformer attenuates the tweeter by 6 db, and it's about 104 db/watt efficiency, it's impedance is 32 ohms vs. 8 for when it's used in a Khorn, LaScala, or Belle. Tweeters can't hangle much more than about 5 Watts of power, nor do they need that much power to work. They get insanely loud with less than a watt of power, which is inherentely small at those frequencies.

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I wouldn't play with the values in the crossover. You may very well find that the new caps will sound better and I would do that first. As a second option, the diaphragms of the K77 tweeters may need replacing. You have a choice here. Bob Crites site offers the parts to rebuild the tweeters and he also offers a complete replacement tweeter for $160/pair.

.....It is very unlikely that there is EVER any damage to diaphragms of K77's in a heresy......

Not what I have heard from a number of sources including my local Klipsch dealer. The K77 doesn't blow, but grit built up in the gap causes problems after 25-30 years! I was also told by the same dealer the the K55 dosesn't share this problem and will go on for ever. I've been with this dealer for 40+ years and trust them.

I replaced the K77 in my center and there was a marked difference for the better.

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Well guys, I experimented a bit tonight and I am very pleased with what I heard. I have never been a believer in placement but now I am. I did place them on my current bookshelf stands (they are small but it did the job) and moved them closer to the wall. I did not move them to the corners since my equipment rack is in one corner and the christmas tree in the other. But, just sliding them back and raising them made a noticeable improvement, with respect to the shrillness. I will still plan on replacing the caps as they are 31 years old. My original minor complaint of lack of bass is still present. Does anyone have any recommendations on how to enhance the bass? I am still considering stuffing the boxes but am waiting on more suggestions, I especially want to make sure I will not start an internal fire if the polyfill presses against the crossover network. Besides this, does anyone have suggestions on how to improve bass? Thanks again everyone for the suggestions, I am very happy with the minor tweaks made so far.

Also, I want to permanently raise these beasts and need some suggestions on stands. I would prefer to make them so I would need suggestions on material/size of base/top and what designs you have seen for the vertical "pillars" (or possibly a single tube filled with sand?).

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...My original minor complaint of lack of bass is still present...

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/storage/5/1358189/Corner%20Speaker%20Placement%20excerpts%20PWK.pdf

I don't think that stuffing the Heresies with fiberfill will solve bass problems. I'd try putting more absorbent material down on the floor in front of and to the side of the Heresies to absorb midrange floor bounce. I'd also think about putting up tapestries on the front wall directly behind the Heresies to absorb midrange wall-to-ceiling bounce. You can also place an absorbent pad on top of the Heresies, letting it stick out in front by an inch or two to absorb some of the midrange horn's vertical polars that are being sprayed on the front wall and ceiling due to loss of polar pattern control from about 800 Hz to about 2 KHz. This will help to control the "shrillness" also.

It goes without saying that you should toe-in and lean back the speakers to aim them right at your listening position. I'd move everything that isn't carpet or rug or speakers out of the way if you are looking for bass response and good imaging response.

Chris

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cask05,

That is an interesting PDF. It seems like the report likes the speaker on the floor in the corner the most for bass response. It likes the speaker on a stand the least for bass response. I figure that is the reason for the risers on Heresy's. Also, perhaps they are slanted back to reduce floor bounce of midrange and tweeters, as they are further up the speaker from the woofer, which would be taking advantage of the mirror. In looking at the PWK report, sticking the Heresy in the corner with the riser would give the best bass response, and require the least equalization.

I have heard that stuffing the box can increase bass response, but it seems to me that is with ported and reflex enclosures.

I am only talking about the bass boost effects, and not the clarity of the midrange. That topic you covered very well above.

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That article was the original incentive for writing the Corner Horn Imaging FAQ since there are so many people here and elsewhere that are not taking advantage of the room's corners. I believe that is due to speaker imaging issues caused by midrange bounce off of non-smooth walls and objects in the local area around the speakers. Most people are also unaware that those issues have solutions. The FAQ was created to provide support for those folks: I had to learn it from the School of Hard Knocks.

PWK repeatedly said that any speaker (except dipoles and bipoles) will have better bass response in the room's corners. The trick is to make sure that you don't lose imaging performance when you place them there.

Chris

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