Deang Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 "unlike your analogy of the ice cream where if i never ate anything but crappy ice cream I would not know the difference..." That wasn't what the analogy was, nor what it was meant to mean, and I didn't say you had "grown used to listening to crap". As for being brainwashed by Bob, that was a joke. So, no need to be offended. I was simply suggesting that you might prefer a warmer sonic signature, and getting used to the brighter signature doesn't mean you might not like them better if you could have the clarity without the forward midrange. It was an observation taken from your statements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 "unlike your analogy of the ice cream where if i never ate anything but crappy ice cream I would not know the difference..." That wasn't what the analogy was, nor what it was meant to mean, and I didn't say you had "grown used to listening to crap". As for being brainwashed by Bob, that was a joke. So, no need to be offended. I was simply suggesting that you might prefer a warmer sonic signature, and getting used to the brighter signature doesn't mean you might not like them better if you could have the clarity without the forward midrange. It was an observation taken from your statements. I hope he prefers the correct sonic signature. I don't know exactly what warm means except as it is used to describe bathwater. I would just use correct (meaning the output of the speaker correctly presents the material on the recording) or incorrect (meaning that the speaker in some way alters what was presented to it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Quit brainwashing everyone with that stuff, you're making them deaf. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Quit brainwashing everyone with that stuff, you're making them deaf. I want company. I am so old and deaf that a set of PIO caps might sound all right to me now. Fortunately, I still got good test equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 http://diyaudioprojects.com/mirror/members.aol.com/sbench102/caps.html http://www.audience-av.com/capacitors/a_testresults.html I see nothing here that would cause a departure in the amplitude response. What I do see is a measurable improvement in linearity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 " I see nothing here that would cause a departure in the amplitude response." Steve was testing mainly new caps, no real ESR issues there. The PIO with a film bypass sure looks good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I hope he prefers the correct sonic signature. I don't know exactly what warm means except as it is used to describe bathwater. I would just use correct (meaning the output of the speaker correctly presents the material on the recording) or incorrect (meaning that the speaker in some way alters what was presented to it).+1 [Y].Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o0O Bill O0o Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 First, greatknowlege and expirence weighing in here and its truly great to get that level of feedback. Ed and I have talked at length about the changes and effects that aftermarket crossovers have on our Klipschorns. I believe that says a great deal in itself. That the notion of good engineering is timeless and that for the last 60 years Klipschorns have represented that level of value. Full disclosure, I purchased my Klipshorns from Ed. He had driven the 8+ hours out to the Buffalo Area of NY from the Boston Area of MA. Just to own a pair of "Mighty" Klipschorns. Anyways, when I arrived to his house with my buddies and Truck, I figured his significant other or some other force of nature had ousted his beloved Klipschorns from their corners. We got to know each other abit, as there was a generation gap. I was a young 30 something and he had at least 20 years of Music and Audio experince on me. He put on Pink Floyd's Animals on his Turntable (Something foriegn to my generation) and I knew regardless of the mile-stones in life we had one thing for certain in common. I was blown away and my friends, who snicker at my obsession, were superlativly slack jawed. Even to this day when I get the new to me speaker itch, they curse me and say "Dude, you got K-horns! You can't get any better.." Ed had also gone through great lengths to re-veneer his Klipschorns in, of all things, Zebrawood. Anyways, the forces of nature that were replacing his Klipschorns at the time were a stunning pair of dark mahogany? with light cane grilled klipschorns he scored from an estate sale. They were A+++ mint not a nick or scratch and cane/wood had no signs of their age. We listened to lots of music that day and I was happy to make the sale and help him hoist his new to him Klipschorns into his corners. As time passed, we talked about the extreme slope and other types of crossovers, but the general consensus between the two of us is "Neither one of us are as smart enough or know more about the speaker than Paul Klipsch" and it was accepted that atempting to out-do what has already been wonderfully executed was a futile exercise. Now, those who are so inclined and have the aptitude, I do not mean to rob you of your own curiousities or your advanced abilities. Still, the hard and fast answer is that in OEM form the Klipschorns are awesome and meet the sonic qualites for the masses. We are all fans, hobbiests, or aficionados and our tastes are particular (as stated previously) yet, for the consistent, reliable, and economic solution the OEM represents the best to me at this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Thanks Dennis. The first link compares the ESR measurements of two Jensen PIOs to some Auricaps. The numbers all fall in the milliohm range. I should have been specific. I tossed the second link in to show that ESR is not the only measurable parameter that will influence performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 The drive components in the current generation Klipschorn and LaScala are virtually identical to those used in the 70's, yet the OEM networks are completely different - so I don't exactly get the point you are trying to make. Late in his life, PK was working with steeper filters. Just because something is different doesn't mean it's wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o0O Bill O0o Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 The drive components in the current generation Klipschorn and LaScala are virtually identical to those used in the 70's, yet the OEM networks are completely different - so I don't exactly get the point you are trying to make. Late in his life, PK was working with steeper filters. Just because something is different doesn't mean it's wrong. I getting at I want to keep the same sound, I don't want to build a crossover, and I don't want to waste my time and resources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o0O Bill O0o Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 There are many directions to go with crossovers. One decision to make is replace or rebuild. Crites Speakers can rebuild old and crusty XOs, bringing them back to factory specs. Here is some info and pricing, look under the phrase in caps 'Rebuild Your Crossovers'. I think they also sell rebuild kits that are cheaper, with you then at the helm doing the work. I'm not that savvy with electronics, so I sent my Forte II crossovers to them. They also sell new XO's, here. There are a few different kinds that were/are used in the Klipschorn, and everyone has their preference. Crites makes this one that seems popular on this Forum (I've read about it often). OK, this has been a HUGE ad for Crites. There are other makers of XOs too. Others here will hopefully give more specific info. So far this is a great recommendation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 a startling idea would be to replace the old OEM xovers with new OEM xovers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Late in his life, PK was working with steeper filters. Just because something is different doesn't mean it's wrong.For those that haven't heard active crossovers, three models of which I identified earlier in this thread (and that were immediately pooh-poohed by Mr. Dean), the advantage is that you can try what you like, many different configurations and settings, listening as you go in real time, including very steep filters and different crossover frequencies, and different balancing EQ filters, etc. You can reuse your active crossover unit with other loudspeakers that you own now or will own in the future--without having to buy anything new. If you find that you like the sound of your original passive crossovers, then you still have them to swap back in. I find that I will never go back to using passive crossovers for Khorns that cannot correct for driver/horn time alignment issues. Digital active crossovers (as opposed to analog active crossovers) have the ability to fully correct time alignment issues like those experienced in the Khorn midrange/bass bin. I recommend listening to digitally time-aligned Khorns via active crossovers if you can since the difference is so startling, IMHO. I know of two places that have them: Greg Oshiro has a pair in Pennsylvania and I have a pair in Texas. I'm sure that there are others out there. These Khorns don't seem to have the near-field listening issues and timbre disturbances that plague passive-crossover and analog active crossover Khorns operating without driver/horn time alignment. For that matter, the original passive crossover used in the center Belle that I use daily was so poor between my two Jubilee fronts that I considered selling the Belle. That is, until I tri-amped using a Dx38 active crossover with time-alignment dialed in. Now the Belle does quite well between the Jubs and integrates seamlessly in my 5.2 main rig (see profile pix and description). Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Like everyone else around here, I have preferences. It's not like I have't tried any of these different things and I'm just shooting my mouth off. I'm no stranger to active setups. I've heard high dollar set ups (with Jubilees in Hope in the Klipsch listening room), and I've owned and heard not so expensive ones that are being touted as solutions that would bury any passive solution that sound like fingernails going across a chalkboard. Yes ladies and gentleman, that edgy gritty sound you're hearing is not "clarity". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Yes ladies and gentleman, that edgy gritty sound you're hearing is not "clarity".I think that it would be wise to point out that you have a vested interest in this subject, so I'll not engage any further, other than to say that I've also heard the very same Klipsch listening room, the same Jubilees, and the very same crossovers, and I didn't hear anything like "fingernails going across a chalkboard". What I did hear, without time alignment using Jubilees, Khorns, and Belles (all three with and without time alignment, and the Khorn and Belle with passive crossovers) is very disconcerting once you hear proper time alignment. I can demonstrate this easily and at any time for anyone that wants to hear the A-B difference in both my home setups.That is my opinion...without vested interest. [] Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o0O Bill O0o Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 Late in his life, PK was working with steeper filters. Just because something is different doesn't mean it's wrong.For those that haven't heard active crossovers, three models of which I identified earlier in this thread (and that were immediately pooh-poohed by Mr. Dean), the advantage is that you can try what you like, many different configurations and settings, listening as you go in real time, including very steep filters and different crossover frequencies, and different balancing EQ filters, etc. You can reuse your active crossover unit with other loudspeakers that you own now or will own in the future--without having to buy anything new. If you find that you like the sound of your original passive crossovers, then you still have them to swap back in. I find that I will never go back to using passive crossovers for Khorns that cannot correct for driver/horn time alignment issues. Digital active crossovers (as opposed to analog active crossovers) have the ability to fully correct time alignment issues like those experienced in the Khorn midrange/bass bin. I recommend listening to digitally time-aligned Khorns via active crossovers if you can since the difference is so startling, IMHO. I know of two places that have them: Greg Oshiro has a pair in Pennsylvania and I have a pair in Texas. I'm sure that there are others out there. These Khorns don't seem to have the near-field listening issues and timbre disturbances that plague passive-crossover and analog active crossover Khorns operating without driver/horn time alignment. For that matter, the original passive crossover used in the center Belle that I use daily was so poor between my two Jubilee fronts that I considered selling the Belle. That is, until I tri-amped using a Dx38 active crossover with time-alignment dialed in. Now the Belle does quite well between the Jubs and integrates seamlessly in my 5.2 main rig (see profile pix and description). Chris Chris, I think you have the way ahead. Now if there were 6 amps, and a really good active 3 way crossover, you'd be in the money! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Pretend this post is from Dean. He asked me to post this. I don't know why, just following orders. dfhelecxover.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 "I think that it would be wise to point out that you have a vested interest in this subject..." And this of course invalidates any and all opinions I might have on the topic. This is nothing more than a cheap shot. You of course have no problem promoting for EV and xyz preamp and amplifier manufacturers. What passives did you hear in Hope? The etched grainy sound I referred to is in reference to the lower priced solutions and I'm sorry, but I don't think they hold up well against even my standard build. In Hope, I thought Mike's set up with the EV unit and his triode amps sounded very nice, but it didn't sound as nice as Rigma's passives, which produced a non-fatiguing effortless/open and rich sound. Your use of the word "startling" to describe the difference with time alignment is kind of funny. I almost strained a ******** trying to hear the difference. By now, I'm sure Bob has posted PWK's opinion on active crossovers. I would have done it but I'm at work and don't have access to my material, so I asked him to do it on my behalf. In comparision to nice passive set ups, they're complicated, noisy, and considerably more expensive for what I consider to be very little in the return department. To each his own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Dean, so what's the gyst of Mr. Paul's take on active crossovers? edit: nevemind. saw Bob's attachment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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