NOSValves Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Well in my opinion to bring the crossover back to spec you have to install the exact same capacitors as it was originally built with... The sonic character of modern film caps "playing real music" is hugely different then those orignial oil cans new or old... I could careless what the ESR was, is or will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Is a schematic of the crossover that Roy designed for Rigma available? Or is it proprietary or something? I've been searching with no luck. babadono The schematic is specific to the TAD 4002/K-402. I don't know what Roy's position is on posting it -- I will email and ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I don't know nuttin...... but.... Isn't it possible that when the speakers came out of the factory they sounded like 'x'. Now over the years because of capacitor degradation they sound like 'y'. But a person has gotten used to it because that is what the human brain does. Now with the crossover brought back up to spec. the speakers sound like 'x' again. And this is abrupt, not over 20+ years so it sounds different. just my 2 cents cuz babadono Oh, but you do know something. I think you have that exactly right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I don't know nuttin...... but.... Isn't it possible that when the speakers came out of the factory they sounded like 'x'. Now over the years because of capacitor degradation they sound like 'y'. But a person has gotten used to it because that is what the human brain does. Now with the crossover brought back up to spec. the speakers sound like 'x' again. And this is abrupt, not over 20+ years so it sounds different. just my 2 cents cuz babadono Pretty good observation for someone who don't know nuttin. Sure, that's a big part of it. But early on I was building these old networks with Hovlands, and I'd have guys call or email me back and tell me that they didn't like the sound or that they didn't sound anything like they did when they bought them (because I had been using the line, "restore to original specifications"). Craig was one of my first customers and told me "they sound like ****". I recapped a set for a guy using Auricaps, which was what I was using at the time to do the RF-7s, and he said it was "a night and day difference." So, I stuck with the Auricap. Later, when I got my own Klipschorns, I got to try a lot of different things. The near zero ESR caps just don't sound very good to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Wait a minute Dean. I thought you told me that the PIO caps you wanted to use now were near zero ESR? Also I thought the Auricap was very low in ESR. The only thing that indicates poor quality on those is the lame manufacturing process that only allows them hit the capacitance value they are shooting for within 10 percent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I guess I should have said caps advertised to be like wire. The Jensens Audience picked out were like around .05 ohms. Auricaps come in around .015. Audience makes a big deal about this, so I can only surmize that there is a big difference between .05 and .015 when it comes to ESR. Caps like the old Hovlands and the Sonicap are even lower. I believe my point with the Jensens was that at least as far as the provided measurements went, they didn't look as bad to me as you were making them sound. I've measured a lot of Auricaps -- almost always within 5%. They would stray closer to 8% if the values were really large. I don't know how the Jensens are made, but I've handled enough of them to know they don't look or feel like junk. The lead terminations are better than what I see on most film caps. The 12uF's measure a little high, which normally puts me within 5% of the 13uF I need. Keep building the way you build, everyone seems to like it. I'll just keep plodding along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I don't know nuttin...... but.... Isn't it possible that when the speakers came out of the factory they sounded like 'x'. Now over the years because of capacitor degradation they sound like 'y'. But a person has gotten used to it because that is what the human brain does. Now with the crossover brought back up to spec. the speakers sound like 'x' again. And this is abrupt, not over 20+ years so it sounds different. just my 2 cents cuz babadono Oh, but you do know something. I think you have that exactly right. Well Bob of course you agree with him it fowards your listen with test equipment approach and it sure doesn't hurt your wallet [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 http://www.hificollective.co.uk/pdf/claritycapmr.pdf I believe B&W use these in their top of the line loudspeakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Roy does not want me to release the schematic. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Roy does not want me to release the schematic. Sorry. I beleive it has been published/posted on here already. [*-)]Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o0O Bill O0o Posted February 24, 2013 Author Share Posted February 24, 2013 Roy does not want me to release the schematic. Sorry. Okay, thanks for the effort.. If I were to replace the HF/MID XO and incorporate a MEN220... So I am thinking I would need some thing to high pass the tweeter, low pass the mid, use the men220 to high pass the mid and low pass the woofer. Next would be two MC275 amps, one for left and one for right. 75watts to the mid/hf, and 75watts for the bass. Then time delay the HF/Mid to align the signal. . Bob, What XO would you recommend? .Later on I could do a two way Jubilee, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Bruce, that was pointed out to me in an email. Apparently there are two versions. I guess I can build the thing for Jubilee owners, just can't give out the values. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Friend, I could try to help you, but I would probably just make a mess of things! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Roy does not want me to release the schematic. Sorry. I beleive it has been published/posted on here already. Bruce Bruce, Where? Can you point me in the proper direction? I've been searching with no luck. And as a side issue--- If someone bought a pair of Jubs with the intent of going 2 way passive surely then he could get a schematic of the crossover he needs? No? babadono Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 It is possible to create a passive crossover that can replicate the transfer function of an active crossover, and many loudspeakers are designed in that manner. It's easy to tweak an active to get the performance that one desires during the design phase and then design a passive that does most of what the active unit is doing. Tom Danley uses passives on many of his products with good results. I think I read somewhere that the passive crossover in his SH-50 weighed around 50 pounds, with time alignment and EQs built in, and are very expensive. Since I am not Tom Danley it was easier for me to correct the performance issues with an active solution and leave it alone once it was dialed in. YMMV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I think I read somewhere that the passive crossover in his SH-50 weighed around 50 pounds, with time alignment and EQs built in,I read a thread over on High Efficiency Speaker Asylum (i.e., AudioAsylum) that Tom wrote on his Synergy speaker crossovers, i.e., how the drivers are physically time-aligned based on their placement along the "tapped" conical horn bore (larger drivers closer to the listener), and the fact that he uses an intelligent approach using Butterworth crossover filters that produce 90 degrees of phase shift in correct sequence.Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Where? Can you point me in the proper direction? I've been searching with no luck. And as a side issue--- If someone bought a pair of Jubs with the intent of going 2 way passive surely then he could get a schematic of the crossover he needs? No? babadono Can't find anything anymore... There is this link on passives, which you may have already looked through. There is a schematic that ALK designed, but if used for CD horns, external eq would ned to be used. There's some pics of Rigmas cost no object passives he built. They are hanging on the wall next to his LaScalas. HUGE! I would guess that you could get a schematic for a passive if you were to buy a set of Jubs, but that would be a Klipsch thing that you would have to work out. http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/128716.aspx Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Roy will not let you flounder if you buy a pair of Jubilees. I'm curious though, since you don't own Jubilees, why do you need the schematic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Dean, I have a perspiring mind[] But seriously I have seen ALK's jub schematic and pictures of Rigma's and it looks to me like night and day differences. I was/am just curious what those differences are. It's not a need, it's a want. babadono Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Rigma's were designed to be as close as possible to what the electronic crossovers accomplish when using the Jub bass bin and the K402 horn with a K69 driver. This would include all of the eq and delay if I am not mistaken. He also uses, IIRC, 300B SET amps at around 10 watts per channel. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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