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better sound from dvd-video


boa12
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finally went & tried something beyond just the digital connect for my regular sony C650D dvd-video player. actually for the 1st time hooked up analog connects from the line outs to the analog ins. just stereo for now (dvd analog inputs). just have to then go into the dvdp set-up & switch digital out off.

1st thing it did was allow the for the 96K sampling rate by the processor. those &^%$ copyright restrictions keep that at 48k limit on the digital connect.

& the sound is great, such as w/ this new queen that has a 96/24 pcm stereo format. 4608kbps vs 754kbps for regular dts dvd-video. & the processor can take this & do 6 speaker stereo.

i'm having trouble figuring out how this is different from dvd-audio in 96/24 stereo(?). i may just go & find room for the other 4 analog cables to do the 96/24 5.1 formats thru the dvd-audio inputs. then I could just use the direct mode & still get sound from 5 speaks & the sub w/o the extra a/d & d/a conversions.

so i guess the big ? is do these dts 96/24 disks have the same dynamics as dvd-audio w/ meridian lossless packaging? have pretty much the same specs as far as SR & resolution. still need dvd-audio to do 192/24 stereo though.

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This message has been edited by boa12 on 05-20-2002 at 03:25 AM

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I am going to take a stab at this. I believe that the compression in DVD-A is different than DD and DTS. Also, there isn't enough bandwidth to do anything past stereo in 192/24. I do believe that it is possible to do 192/24 to the mains and 96/24 to the rest of a 5.1 recording, but to date I don't think and title has been released with that mix. The labels don't want to use 192 because of the space that is required. I have yet to try the 6 analog out connection. You bring up a pretty interesting point. I am a little confused on the 48 limit with the digital out though. Is that par for the coarse with all manufacturers? I was under the impression that the 96/24 was the bit rate for the dac, which in most cases we are using the one in our pre-amp or receiver. We need to get some more info on this.

A puzzled,

JT

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d-man, yes this digital/computer stuff is somewhat challenging as i also found. from the thread "crash course in bits" & some further study i've learned a few things albeit slowly. Smile.gif

yes dvd-audio uses a compression format called mlp (meridian lossless packaging) that allows more info to be stored on the disk at higher sampling rates & w/ less loss in reproduction than our regular old dts & dolby.

my sony dvd-video adheres to the 48k digital limit as i believe most do unless they want to receive a call from the legal dept of a record producer. cwm6.gif

my sony does diplay bit rates which are a product of the sampling rate & sample bit size both recorded & reproduced by the player. when i do this dts 96/24 in pcm stereo on mine it shows bit rates at 4608kbps. relatively, when i play a regular dts 5.1 disk i get audio bit rates at 754kbps.

dvd-audio even w/ the mlp format is limited to stereo for 192/24 recordings & playback. 96/24 it can do in 5.1. but i don't know what bit rates it's showing.

but these new dts 96/24 can do it on a regular dvd-video player also in 5.1 or pcm stereo. so what i'm wondering is, is this the equivalent of dvd-audio in 96/24? possibly mlp is less lossy so when it does 96/24 it runs at still higher bit rates than that from my dvd-video w/ analog connects playin a dts 96/24 disk

(???).

so if i'm running at a sampling rate of 96k w/ 24bit material, does dvd-audio at 96/24 run at still higher bit rates (iow, is it less lossy?), or does it sound more dynamic because of thing(s) other than higher bit rates (given the same quality dacs)?

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This message has been edited by boa12 on 05-21-2002 at 10:10 AM

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d-man yea these bits bytes digital thangs are foreign.

my guess is dvd-audio still sounds better (higher dynamics) because they usually use better dacs in their players & mlp is a more lossless than the formats we can use w/ dvd-video players.

anyway, these dts 96/24 disks sound great bypassing the

48k digital connection, though not a drastic change using the analog as i think i'm just getting a lil bump

in the SR to 96k but then running thru both the sony players dacs & the b&k's adcs & dacs. cwm5.gif

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I wish I could see the bit rates on my Panasonic RP-91, as I might have an answer for ya. I can tell you this... I too have turned my digital cable off on the Panny and use the Analog cables for all playback from the DVDP (DD5.1, DTS, DVD-A and CD's). I have to moniter EXT-IN on the 4800 (5.1 Analog cables) in order to do this. Without question, it sounds better than using the digital cable. This leads me to believe the DAC's in the Panny are better than those in the Denon. It could also be the use of the ICBM, which sits between the Panny and my receiver, but the mids and highs have better separation too. Just so you know, I do not use the level settings on the Panny (they are all set to 0), but instead have balanced the EXT-IN channel level settings on the Denon 4800 to dial it in...

Mike

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This message has been edited by Mike Lindsey on 05-22-2002 at 01:12 PM

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quote:

Originally posted by boa12:

so if i'm running at a sampling rate of 96k w/ 24bit material, does dvd-audio at 96/24 run at still higher bit rates (iow, is it less lossy?), or does it sound more dynamic because of thing(s) other than higher bit rates (given the same quality dacs)?


maybe i don't understand english that well, but i can answer the above par.

but first, mlp isn't less lossy, it's lossless, no loss whatsoever.

if you dig more on the net, you'll find that the mlp has 1:2 compression ratio. with that information we could find the bit rate:

(for 96/24 stereo)

96khz * 24bits * 2channel / 2 = 2304kbps

just to confuse you more, computer engineers would rather say it 281KBps, at least i would. now compare that to cdda's 172KBps, not a big leap huh? it's bigger, the comparation should count for the compression, which makes it 562KBps vs. 172KBps. so dvd-a should sound 3.27 times better than cdda, that is if you're a mathematician or an engineer.

of course, dvd-a can go much higher than that. does it sound better, you'll be the judge. but what i really want is a company like klipsch would put up a laser in front of a khorn diapraghm and measure its movement. if it move differently for different recording quality, than it'll sure sound differently.

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imel

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quote:

Originally posted by boa12:

thanks imel. but my sony dvd-video player displays 4608kbps when i play this pcm 96/24 disk w/ the digital connection. seems to be off a decimal here.
cwm5.gif


what? cmiiw, you have a 96/24 stereo dvd-a disc, a dvd-a player, and a dvd video player (the sony), right?

if that's the case, and you're playing through a digital connection from the dvd-a player to the sony, then it'd make sense:

- 2304kbps is the bit rate the dvd-a getting, which is the compressed data bit rate.

- dvd-video player can't _decompress_ mlp data, so it only receives pcm data which is uncompressed mlp from the dvd-a player. that makes twice as much data received by dvd-video player, of uncompressed mlp, that's 4608kbps (or 562KBps, like i said).

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imel

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thanks again imel. my cable modem is testing at about 650kbps so i was hoping the dvd player could do better than that. Smile.gif though actually my modem is passing more than the dolby format at around 450kbps (regular dts at 754kbps).

to clarify, i'm using a regular old sony dvd-video player, but these higher bit rates are w/ this new dts 96/24 disk that can be played on a regular dvd-video player such as my sony. it's dts 96/24 for both pcm & 5.1, though in 5.1 the bit rates are more like 1508kbps.

this is something new from dts - 96/24 Not in mlp for pcm nor 5.1. (though it does also have a high resolution/mlp track). what i've been wondering - w/ these new type w/ 96/24 for a dvd-video player, what or how much am I really missing from not getting a dvd-audio player (besides stereo 192/24 capability)?

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This message has been edited by boa12 on 05-23-2002 at 05:53 PM

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quote:

Originally posted by boa12:

to clarify, i'm using a regular old sony dvd-video player, but these higher bit rates are w/ this new dts 96/24 disk that can be played on a regular dvd-video player such as my sony. it's dts 96/24 for both pcm & 5.1, though in 5.1 the bit rates are more like 1508kbps.

this is something new from dts - 96/24 Not in mlp for pcm nor 5.1. (though it does also have a high resolution/mlp track). what i've been wondering - w/ these new type w/ 96/24 for a dvd-video player, what or how much am I really missing from not getting a dvd-audio player (besides stereo 192/24 capability)?


oh, so i was shooting the wrong duck. but i can say this:

you said the bitrate for 96/24 5.1 is 1508kbps.

96khz * 24 bits * 6 channels = 13824kbps

that makes the compression ratio 13824/1508 = 9:1

dvd-a has 2:1 compression ratio, but that's lossless.

to make a fair comparison, assume dts also done some lossless compression in the process, at worst, with dvd-a's 2:1 ratio. now dts vs. dvd-a is 4.5:1. i do believe that some clever guy can do excellent 4.5:1 lossy compression.

i did some check some time ago about having a good music source. i found dts, dd-ac3, dvd-a, hdcd, xrcd, and sacd. my best bet is hdcd.

for other source, i have to wait for you guys, the us market, to decide on a format. if european agree at about the same time, hopefully, i could have whatever it'll be, here not so long after. so that's, what, 2 years for you and 3 years for me from now?

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imel

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Have you checked the specs on the Denon DVD-3800, boa? Not particularly recommending it...but it does seem pretty impressive. Price should drop about 1/2 quickly. Get ready to drop the bass on the velo a few clicks too! :^)

Keith

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