Horn Types, how do they sound?

[biglaz]

hope this helps

[moray james]

Wow! Thanks. Looks like Aribic or some such middle eastern script, so where did you by this anyway? I think that the written part translates into "Ahla lives in the mid range" So do you use that monster for a security system or tunes? Thanks again, best regards Moray James.

[biglaz]

My brother was in demolition about 30 years ago and brought this to me from a stadium he was tearing down. He said this is the only one that survived. It came with a driver with a blown diaphram which I replaced (I have forgotten the model #). It has been hanging in the garage ever since. I play music, crossed @300hz from dual 18" low frequency drivers. It can be heard way far away perfectly clear with minimal power input. I have tried to find another with no luck and have tried to sell this one with no luck. So it hangs and plays.

biglaz

[Marvel]

You want something for 1 inch or 2 inch drivers?

I have a pair of JBL 2365 horns I am putting up for sale. They would be a little large to ship, though.

Bruce

[PrestonTom]

The JBL 2365 is for a 2 inch driver.

IMO, I would not try to use an adaptor to fit a 1 inch driver on it. Those big JBL bi-radials are funny beasts (yes, they are large). They can sound okay if you cross them above about 700Hz or so. Otherwise they have a harsh sound if crossed lower. I also tried them out on top of my Jubilee-style bass bin for a time. Yes, they can cost a small fortune to ship.

edit: I just remembered that I was using 2360's and not 2365's. Take my comments with a grain of salt.

[Marvel]

The JBL 2365 is for a 2 inch driver.

IMO, I would not try to use an adaptor to fit a 1 inch driver on it. Those big JBL bi-radials are funny beasts (yes, they are large). They can sound okay if you cross them above about 700Hz or so. Otherwise they have a harsh sound if crossed lower. I also tried them out on top of my Jubilee-style bass bin for a time. Yes, the can cost a small fortune to ship.

I wouldn't use an adapter either, Tom. I just asked what driver he wanted to use. JBL recommends no lower than 500Hz. Claude had a pair he used for a while on his journey but I think they were the 2360s.

Bruce

[moray james]

I am thinking smallet rather than larger so 1 -1.4 inch exit but I am not sure I would like to find a horn that lets me get to a rwo way or very close , don't mind adding a tweeter if necessary would like to get as low as possible with as large a nid horn as poaaible. I can't afford to go K402 so the big EV horns look very interesting right now. Probably stick with original EV drivers. I might even consider a Karson cabinet below the mid horn as that might make for a good match. I am open to all possible options right now. But at some point I have to jump in one direction or another and go with that choice as far as I can. Best regards Moray James.

[Horatio]

Moray:

I will try to get some pictures of my setup, which I have promised some time ago, this weekend, and I will post them on this thread.

As you may recall from earlier posts in other threads, I am running EV HR6040's on top of Khorn bottoms. These just fit, width-wise, and the overall depth, with driver, fits the corner envelope nicely. It does make for a tall cabinet, but it looks (IMHO) not unreasonable. My wife can accept it, so that says something, I guess.

Right now, I am driving these with EV DH1012's, a 1.3" driver, but these don't go really high, but they do well enough that this makes for a very credible 2-way. Must be equalized, and so I am using a miniDSP to do this, and the crossover work.

I have *just* scored a pair of Altec 288-8K's, and these, being 1.4" throats, work with the 1.3" EV HR-series horns. The 288's should give performance to 15K, and that's good enough for me, for a two-way. The 288's can be driven down to 300 Hz, but one must mind the power at these frequencies. Since this is a home setup, and my upper end amp can't deliver much above a handful of watts anyway, I think this will be fine. The HR6040 can be used down to 300-350 Hz, so, this should be a good match. Really helps to deal with the 400 Hz region of the bass horn.

Right now, I drive the bottoms with monoblock MOSFET amps, 100W per, and I am using a T-amp for the top. I am constructing an SE84C-style SET amp, 2W, using the DECWARE ZKIT1 board, and this will replace the T-amp I am using, hopefully later this month.

This pretty much represents the end point for me, and is the result of a very long history of thought on the klipshorn, its problems, and their solution. I had tried several of the HR-series horns, trying to find the magic combination: the HR9040's are glorious, but positively epic in size. You've seen the pix; really hard to integrate these in any kind of esthetically pleasing way. The little brother HR90's just won't go low enough, but it you have a system that can be crossed in a 500Hz, they deserve a serious listen. The HR6040 enabled a reasonable solution in terms of packaging, and provide sonics the equal of the 9040's. In some ways, the HR6040's are to be preferred, as they increase the direct vs. reflected component in most rooms.

The thing that made this approach really doable is the advent of low-cost, high quality digital signal processing. This really makes the problem of crossover design, equalization and room-based adjustment vastly simpler. With adjustable digital delay capability, it really brings this all-horn setup into the 21st century in overall performance.

The runner up approach for me would have been an Altec 311-90, which is a horn of roughly the similar dimensions (the HR6040 being a few inches wider, a bit deeper, and several inches taller), and is a very well designed midrange horn. But, it is not suitable for a two-way design because of the exponential horn's beaminess at the upper reaches. So, this approach was less satisfying (not to mention much more expensive- those 311-90' may as well be cast of gold, these days).

[moray james]

Thank you Horati: for your post along with the valuable information regarding the various horns which you have been able to audition in your sustem. The HR6040 is an attractive compromise with benefits when compared to the much larger HR9040. I went and found some information on the HR4020 which is the pick up filling monster at the top of this thread. I am guessing that it is a good sounding horn and its mamoth size make it fastinating to see. The HP9040 turned 90 degrees has very good polar conteol doen to the lowest of its bw and at only 33 inches wide is not too bad as size goes. I am looking forward to seeing your pictures when you post. Best regards Moray James.

[ClaudeJ1]

Hey Tom: thank you very much for your extremely kind offer. I am sorry to say that I am a very long way away from you here in Calgary Alberta. I have been looking for a way to get into a large horn to obtain a low crossover point and have good pattern control. I cannot afford a horn like the K402 so I started to look toward other large quality horns which are available and the EV seem to stand out. I have heard many comments that with horns bigger is better. I am looking to be monitoring in moderate sized rooms for the foreseeable future sitting perhaps 12 - 15 feet back from the speakers. I would like to shoot for a crossover point of 300 - 400 Hz if that is possible. Since my monitering levels will beunder 100 -105db most of the time I can't see having issues if I give up some output to gain extension. I am also wondering about building a large conical horn. By the time I factor shipping and parts buying or building work out about the same but buying used means I have a speaker not not a project. Thanks again Tom for your generous offer it is much appreciated. Best regards Moray James.

You can do 400 Hz. with a DH1A or a JBL2446J on an EV HP640, but you have to do it with a digital Xover..........Behringer 2496 in my case, several years back, with 4th or 8th order Linkwitz-Riley settign. It was just an experiment, but it worked. The 2" throat of that horn give WAY more area than a 1.3" throat, and can cross lower, as long as it's for home and not PA. A 15 ft. listening distance is perfect for those horns, with 10 ft. being marginal at best. the big EV or JBL drivers can shelving EQ's to get you flat to 18 Khz. but even CD horns narrow a bit at the very top, although much less with a 640 rather than a 960.

For a 1" throat and an 800 Hz. Xover, you can get a Peavey MX-1 horn dirt cheap and put a better driver on it. That horn was designed by a couple of engineers that quit EV and went to work for PEAVEY, so it's very similar and sounds darn good. Had some for years for 7.1 side/rear channels (with FH-1's for bass) until I decided to downsize to Heresy's , and now KPT-200's.

[ClaudeJ1]

For a 1" throat and an 800 Hz. Xover, you can get a Peavey MX-1 horn dirt cheap and put a better driver on it.

By better, I mean a JBL 1" or equivalent that you can EQ up, although the original 22a driver sounds really good from 600-10Khz. but you still feel you need some EQ up top or a super tweet. When you get into the 2" drivers can get into the 300-400 Hz. range with caution, but 1" drivers prefer one octave up from that.....600-1,200 Hz.

After all, it's 1/4 the surface area so it makes sense from the physics point of view.

[ClaudeJ1]

The JBL 2365 is for a 2 inch driver.

IMO, I would not try to use an adaptor to fit a 1 inch driver on it. Those big JBL bi-radials are funny beasts (yes, they are large). They can sound okay if you cross them above about 700Hz or so. Otherwise they have a harsh sound if crossed lower. I also tried them out on top of my Jubilee-style bass bin for a time. Yes, the can cost a small fortune to ship.

I wouldn't use an adapter either, Tom. I just asked what driver he wanted to use. JBL recommends no lower than 500Hz. Claude had a pair he used for a while on his journey but I think they were the 2360s.

Bruce

That is correct..2360a's...........best sounding JBL horn IMHO in my 4-way setup.........along with it's companion Peavey MB-1, it has been replaced by a K402/1133, which was doable because the Tapped horn took care of bass below 70 Hz. so I was able to use an FH-1 with K33's (more ruggedly built cabinet than a LaScala and cheaper) for bass and midbass combined to cross at 400 Hz. to the 402, which is lower mids and upper mids combined...........like slicing round pita bread sandwich into thirds rather quarters, LOL.

Co-incidentally, Preston Tom, I did cross my MB-1's (1.3 mH choke) into the JBL's at 700 Hz. This is where they measured and sounded best. But they did naturally go up to 8 Khz. with broad dispersion, even though the mass rolloff had kicked in by then.

[ClaudeJ1]

I will ppst two pictures of a couple of old Elecrtovoice Cd horns which are about the same size but a little different I am curious to hear from members who have heard both types of horns and not necessarily these two and would like to know how they compare. One is a diffraction horn one is not. Thanks and lets see if I can get the pictures to postt. Best regards Moray James.

PS: these are EV HP9040 horns designed for one inch drivers.

I don't think so. I have never seen them for 1" drivers. Mine are for 2" drivers (owner) and I have never seen even a spec. for 1" anywhere. So they are for 2" drivers, which are in the photo you posted.

[moray james]

You are right about the three inch. I will check the data sheet to see what they are and get back. Thanks Claude Sorry for the error. Perhaps ther is an adaprte that allows the use of a one inch exit driver? Best regrds Moray James.

[ClaudeJ1]

You are right about the three inch. I will check the data sheet to see what they are and get back. Thanks Claude Sorry for the error. Perhaps ther is an adaprte that allows the use of a one inch exit driver? Best regrds Moray James.

Most adapters screw up the sound in some fashion......not recommended. Stick with a 2" driver, which is what the horn was mated with.

[moray james]

HR9040A throat 1.3 inch dia. From EV data sheet.

[djk]

And the HP9040 is 2", as mentioned by ClaudeJ1.

The HP940 is available in 2", 1.4", and 1" (the later two are branded Altec).

[Horatio]

I promised this to a few on this forum, and to others, I thought you may be interested in some of this.

I have a set of HR6040 horns (with DH1012 drivers) integrated onto my Klipsch-style bass horns (Speakerlab factory builds, with K33E's in them). The HR6040 will *just* fit on top of the bass horn, and while the whole stack is rather tall. I have had custom cabinets made for the replacement top sections, by some Amish craftsmen I've dealt with for many years. They also made a replacement front panel and kickplate for the basshorn. This is all done in solid cherry, finished to my specification.

I have focused on showing the top hat assembly. I have not yet fabricated the grill assemblies, but that is coming. As you can see from the top hat design, the grills will wrap around in the style of the classic Klipsch manner. The top hat was designed after studying pictures of the 1950's series top hats, in which much larger midrange horns had been used.

As for the HR6040's: these are first or early production run versions. This can be seen from the molding lines reflecting the mating of the lower and upper halves during manufacture.

I have had a pleasant correspondence with Jim Long, who filled me in on some of the history of this remarkable horn design, and I thought I'd share an excerpt from Jim's response, together with some observations on another audio site:

I came across a series of posts by a 'gibber' in AudioKarma. Anyway, in these posts, some interesting pix and measurements were shown regarding the HR9040 and the HR9040A. I have a set of the HR9040A's, and I also have a set of the HR6040's. I noticed that the 6040's were manufactured differently, being the joining up an upper and lower half of the horn. I also noticed that the throats were 'slotted' just inside the driver entry hole. I went back the Keele paper, and sure enough, I saw the slot in the drawings of this paper. This is not a diffraction slot, per se, but rather, appears in order to satisfy the area expansion relationship.

However, the HR9040A's did not have this.

As indicated, some time back, I corresponded with Jim Long, who's written of these magnificent horns, and he sent me a short document he had written, trying to capture the developments in the HR series production: the early horns were produced using this two halves process, while the 'A' series had two variations: an early 'A' and a later 'A'. Both the original production (non A) and the early A horns featured the vertical support in the mouth of the horn. The later A's did away with this support, and instead, used several contour following slats on the outside of the horn, to provide the needed stiffness. If you look around for a pix of Jim's home setup, you will see a set of these late 'A' models.

The most interesting thing Jim said, though, in his writeup is this:

" There were three versions of the large-format EV HR horns. I will use the 90° x 40° HR9040 as an example. The HR9040 had both a vertical fin in the center of its mouth and a more complicated throat expansion than the later HR9040A’s. The copies of the original drawings I have show this—when traveling in the vertical cross section from the horn entrance toward the mouth, the HR9040’s profile “necks down” before finally blending into the main, 40° conical section that contributes most to the constant directivity. I recall Ray telling me that this provided a more truly exponential expansion in the initial part of the horn but also produced a more complicated molding process. The vertical fin was a stiffener to stabilize the rather wide top and bottom parts of the horn.

The first HR9040A simplified the throat expansion but still had the vertical fin. I recall Ray Newman telling me that the simplified expansion had the serendipitous effect of smoothing the response above about 8 kHz, due to the elimination of a standing-wave situation. None of the measurements made to illustrate this have survived in my possession. Old spec sheets in my archive may yield some info but a cursory look suggests that there is nothing as nice as driver x on both an HRxxxx and an HRxxxxA horn.

The final HR9040A eliminated the vertical fin and replaced it with three long front-to-back fins, with a maximum height of about 1.5 inches, running radially on the outside of both the top and bottom of the horn. These are the horns in my home stereo. I have added Sorbothane rectangles, about 0.25 in. x 1 in. x 2 in. in size, to the top and bottom of my horns.1 I recall that this further smoothed the already smooth impedance curves of the HR horns by a small amount.2

All of the above physical changes in HR horn design were driven by manufacturing cost.

Regarding audible differences:

1.
VHF smoothness improvement of the “A” versions. I have not had the opportunity to compare the old and new (I don’t have an original HR9040).

2.
The two fin approaches. I can’t evaluate this difference either, but I suspect they are not significant.

1 These were leftover items in the EV service department, used to dampen mechanical resonances in another EV horn. The current Sorbothane Web site is http://sorbothane.com.

2 This was ascertained, as I recall, when impedance curves were being run in the large EV anechoic chamber. Clamping the vertical horn mouth produced a slightly smoother impedance curve (small ripples gone). (More radical constant-directivity designs, which came later, such as the Altec Mantaray horns, have huge impedance swings with frequency. This is evidence of mouth reflections, which contribute/produce an unpleasant sound quality.)"

So there you have it: evidently there was some sort of defect in the response of the first series, which was (accidentally?) solved in the later series as a result of manufacturability concerns! I think the early series load a bit lower, and the trade evidently was in this 8 Khz+ response anomaly.

FYI.

OK. I just finished wrestling with this editor, attempting to find a way to load images, no joy. I will make another pass at this when I have figured this out.

-M

[Horatio]

Here are the pictures. If these don't show up, I give up, it is too ponderous a task. I have created a Flickr account to load the URLs, and when I composed this post and added the pix, I don't see anything but black line bordered white boxes.

Here's the Flickr URL where the pix are located: http://www.flickr.com/photos/75983040@N02/with/6971115787/

Also, compare to the Audio Engineering League's 311-90 modified KHorn: http://www.northreadingeng.com/ALTEC_311-90/ALTEC_311-90.html

Lastly, those who have an interest, an article by Jim Long: Sound Practices #13 shows an interesting system, and shows the last of the HR9040A production (without the verticle fin).

-M

[Marvel]

HR6040