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E-V Patrician 800 speakers - goody!


Woodog
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Waiting for pics to upload to photobucket as I write. Yesterday found
some detail that had to be done with clamping and cracks in the molding.
Used shims made from the old speaker cloth to put in the holes so the
molding would screw in snugly. They were previously stripped which
explained the finishing nails used on the front. At any rate, the
directions on the glue said clamp for 30 minutes but do not stress the
joints for 24 hours, so this afternoon the boxes will be ready to put
the speakers back in.



I have the crossovers mounted and got another two boards cut that I'll
mount the attenuators on (I wanted to keep the original panels untouched). I won't stain those since they will be hidden
from sight, but I'm sure it'll look okay.



Bob Crites does really fine work as you well know!


Oh, and if anyone stumbles on this thread who wants hi-rez photos of the
crossovers, just drop me a line and I'll send them to you.



so close...



Forrest

Pics of yesterday's efforts

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Hi Woodog!

Nice pics! A real professional restore! I just finished my flooring project so I had a chance to upload some photos of my homemade version of the Patrician 800 I built in 1978. My construction photos are on prints so I didn't include those but you can see the modifications that were made to make assembly easier. The cabinet volume and horn sled angles are identical to yours. Hope the following link works.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v318/newjerseybt/

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Got one of them finished!



Got one of em finished and the other one will have to wait until tomorrow.



Also, have to check to be sure the woofer is in phase with the rest of
the cabinet. I hooked them up like they came out (I had marked
EVERYTHING) but in looking closer, all the other drivers in each cabinet
are red to positive except the woofer, which is red to negative. Don't
think it's supposed to be that way.



However, the sound, NICE. First music across them was Scarlet Begonias
(Grateful Dead) which just happened to be on the radio. The attenuators
go from nothing to wide open, so there's a lot of color available with
these babies. tuned the station to a hip/hop techno station and the low end really shows itself!




Khorn slayer... probably not, but they aren't in the spots the
Khorns occupy, nor are they being driven by the same amp either.



Can't wait to get the other unit together tomorrow and listen to them together.



Pics of the finished one here



http://s140.photobucket.com/albums/r...0800/finished/

(which will tell you NOTHING about the way it sounds, but still)... also a cameo by my friend Tim who is another crazy audio enthusiast


Forrest


















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Forrest,

I believe the 30W is supposed to be wired 180deg out of phase with the three speakers. Check the original crossover schematic. The Klipsch cornerhorn X-over may also indicate a reversal on the 15".

If the 30Ws are 180deg out of phase from each other, a loss of bass will be noticable.

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Good news is... They're DONE. Well, almost done. Have to get a few
screws to replace warped ones, but functionally, they are DONE. banana.gif



Sat back and listened for a bit in the garage last night. Nice.

Will move them into the Khorn spot soon - importantly, corners. They are definitely not meant for near field listening, I
don't think.

This has been a fun and highly satisfactory
project.
I'm waiting for some pics to load up and then I'll post a link.




Here ya go, pics here



above link takes you here



http://s140.photobucket.com/albums/r21/woodogs-world/Patrician%20800/Done5142012/



will post a video that will tell you nothing about how they
sound. In fact I guarantee they'll sound just like your computer
speakers. biggrin.gif

video here


all best,



Forrest

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(the below is from an email to Seti, who's been in the loop
for a while. ... just didn't want to type out the thoughts again) yes.gif



After getting them into the house yesterday and hooking them up to my
H.H. Scott 355/208 combo, it was something of an anti-climax. They seemed anemic, and
while the bass was clearly 'there', things were muddy and not well
defined.

Something wasn't right, or if everything WAS right I couldn't see why folks would be excited about these monsters.


I put the 355 into mono mode and couldn't locate the 'invisible' center
speaker, so figured I had wired them incorrectly even though I had marked EVERYTHING as it came out of the boxes - even down to which screws went where on the cabinets. Oh well, it was late and there was no time (actually too tired) to fix them
last night. I was SO disappointed.



Got back into both boxes today to check against a schematic JJBlue84 had posted over at Audiokarma.org.


Get this - the tweeters and the squawker were both wired red to red (pos) and black to black (neg).



The schematic called for everything EXCEPT the 12" woofer to be wired Black to Red (pos) and Red to black (neg)


As I said, I had marked EVERYTHING as it came out of those boxes, so there's
something of a mystery going on. I think it may explain the use of
finishing nails on the front of the box.



Here's my theory, they didn't sound 'right' , but certainly better than
your average stereo, so somebody at some point tried to go inside, and
stripped the screws off the front molding because that is the WRONG way
to get inside, even though it would appear 'easier'. When they realized
the effort involved, plus the fact that they were positioned a few feet
off the ground to begin with (and weigh 315 pounds!!!) they probably said 'screw it'.



Now ... with the speakers wired correctly, I could find the invisible center speaker with the source on mono, meaning they were in phase with each other.

The sound???



OH MY... really good. Great sound stage and clarity.

Khorn slayer? No way, but every bit a kissing cousin.

I still prefer the authority and muscularity of the horn loaded bass, but the Patricians deliver. Of that there is NO doubt.

My son came over a few moments ago and brought some techno music. They definitely dig deeper than the Khorns.

The supreme test for me was how they sound at low volume. It's one of the features that made me fall in love with Cornwalls and Klipschorns - delicious. full, sweet and clear at low volumes.

The Patricians are the same way. As they say, no replacement for displacement.


They are not as efficient as the Khorns, so it takes more juice, but the
208 at ~30 watts a side (7591 tubes) is plenty loud if I want it, and
really nice at low volume (most of the time I listen at low volume). The Altec 1658a mono blocks are rated at 40 watts (EL84 based). So when I get those going it'll be interesting how they sound.



Here are the resistance values I measured from the drivers



Box one: measured at the terminals with crossovers in the chain and the speaker by itself (marked alone)

30W - 6.0 5.0 (alone)

LF (12") - 6.3 8.7 (alone)

HF (mid horn) 1.8 13.2 (alone)

VHF (350) .5 7.1 (alone)



Box two:



30W - 6.0 5.0 (alone)

LF (12") - 6.2 8.4 (alone)

HF (mid horn) 1.7 13.6 (alone)

VHF (350) .5 9.3 (alone)



Forrest

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I knew one of the drivers was supposed to be wired out of phase.

I used a old Heathkit electronic crossover to do some experimentation which I will explain in a bit. Several things I learned about the 30W. The proper distance from the corner mean't everything as to how the bass sounded. The placement was supposed to be 2.0 inches or so from the corner according to the EV bulletin. For reasons unknown to me, 6 inches worked far better for lower sounding and more powerful bass. I thought it was my ears but my buddies also noticed that 6 inches worked much better than 2 inches. Other speaker websites claimed that I was not hearing correctly but the difference was huge and was confirmed by 4 others in the room. These speakers DEMAND a corner to work or else you will have have a lot less bass. Secondly, I am assuming that the crossovers are correct for your drivers. The original ElectroVoice 12db/octave crossover for a 16 ohm system is a 9mh coil in series with a 280 mfd cap non polar across the 30W. For my 8 ohm system, I redesigned the crossover using a 4.5mh for the inductor and 560ufd nonpolar for the cap. I used an electronic bridge to wind the coil perfect as opposed to counting windings. If it were me, I would rent a bridge to confirm your coil value. But then again, I am a fanatic. ;') Finally, using my heathkit electronic crossover resulted in a huge difference over the original passive crossover. The electronic crossover was 18/db per octave which worked even better the original 12db/octave and setting the crossover point elecronically to 80 hz instead of 100 removed a very slight unwanted tone from the deep male voice improving the 30W 100%. Again, I have looked at about 6 Patrician 800 and never saw an 8 ohm version from the factory. The original schematic PDF http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CEoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Felectrovoice.com%2Fdownloadfile.php%3Ff%3DPatrician%2520800%2520EDS.pdf&ei=yVW0T-GXK8nZ6gGEwuXhDw&usg=AFQjCNFUd4YP-PUwFhqxT9TOLTOGEuaL-Qo lists the original drivers. Note the T-350 coil and cap is for a 5Khz crossover point. The later schematics are for 3500Hz which is an improvement.

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In Da House!

Thanks Bill!

Seti first turned me on to that schematic, but it took another user to
remind me. I sent the crossovers to Bob Crites, who speaks the language
you do and truly 'gets' speakers. He rebuilt them as they were and
commented on how some of the specs were different... had me measure
resistance and all that stuff.


Speaking of stuff, I wish I understood that stuff, it would make it
seem more legit somehow. I did trace the wires somewhat and I could
figure out how they needed to be wired. I was so meticulous taking it
apart that I was certain how I found it was the correct wiring.


Thank goodness for the internet!

My son brought some of his dubstep music over, very cool genre and we let it crank. Oh my goodness. These are VERY choice.

Checking out Beethoven at the moment.

Life is good

Forrest

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Hi Forrest

Glad you like them. I was getting worried about a possible miswire. :').

I found a post of mine from 10 years ago. I commented as I looked over a second original Patrician x-over schematic which incorporated a 3500hz crossover point for a 16 ohm T-350 VHF driver. Just wanted to let you know that the 3500hz crossover for 16 ohms is
comprised of a 2.84ufd non-polar cap in series with the tweeter and a .73mh
coil across the tweeter. I would expect an 8 ohm crossover to be 5.68ufd for the cap and .36mh for the coil.

Engineering at E.V. in 1978 told me to double the cap values and half the coils to convert to a modern 8 ohm system which makes sense. Two caps of the same value in parallel will double the microfarads while placing 2 coils of the same value in parallel will half the value.

Other ElectroVoice models used a T-35 but the T-350 is touted as the better of the two drivers. If you mismatch an 8 ohm driver using an older 16 ohm tube crossover, there will be a 1 octave error on each speaker (doubling the frequency to each driver) which is why I hoped your x-overs are correct for your 8 ohm drivers. (meaning that someone might have upgraded the drivers years ago if they bought a newer 8 ohm transistorized amp as opposed to an older 16 ohm tube amplifier. (I still can't get over that you have 8 ohm drivers)

I was going to modify my Patricians so I would be able to lower the grill cloth using movable metal tabs. If you listen to your Patricians without the grill cloth they will sound a full notch better like all speakers will! That is why the best systems (JBL Everest) of today do not use a grill cloth.

I used a 220 RMS watt per channel amp which was biamped. I never cranked it up as I would probably cook the coils.

Are your speakers placed in corners? The corners serve as the final mouth of the horn. You then place yourself inside the horn. :')

In the future I will probably order a pair of Klipsch cornerhorns as they fit better in my smaller retirement home but still can loosen the drywall nails.

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I am tired of drywall repairs. My friend had Jensen model 6 speakers in his family room. They were four ways from the mid 70s or so which contained 15" woofers. His drywall nails started peeking out in one month! Out came the drywall screws and spackle. That is the problem with 99% of installations. Everyone forgets about the room itself.

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Well, I'm going to keep them. The Klipschorns will go to some lucky new
home in November, but first they will hang out with my son in his
apartment for a few months.

If it were just for the sound alone, the Khorns with a sub that dug to subsonic levels would be best, but the history of these Patricians coupled with their beauty makes me want to hang on to them. Plus, I can always score another set of Khorns - not to make them sound 'common' as they are far from that - but certainly more available than Patricians. Plus the patricians look good in the house!




I'm thinking of putting together a 'listening' weekend ...

either

7/21-22

7/28-29

or

8/4-5



I'll be a single man for about 5 weeks and can have lots of speakers in the house.

I'll have my 1976 Klipschorns & Patricians in the 4 corners, 1976 Cornwalls and Tannoy SGM 10s there as well.
Scott 299B and 355/208 combo, and possibly the Altecs will be up and
running by that point. Not sure.



Of course, if you wish to bring some of your speakers/amps/turntables/etc. you would be welcome and ENCOURAGED to do so.



any interest? Bowling Green KY is a pretty cool vacation spot if you
want other things to do. Corvette Museum, Mammoth Cave, great local
eating places.



let me know... this would be fun to do



Forrest

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  • 8 years later...

Hi Forrest,

Interesting story, which I realize is several years old.  I recently acquired a single Patrician 800 wth Stereon 850. One of the drivers in the 800 is isn't working. I don't know if the problem might be the pot or the driver (which could be a T25A or a T250, or?).  The problem is that I have been unable to remove the back of the speaker so I could examine the crossover. I have removed all the screws from the back of the speaker, but nothing even budges.  Any suggestions wil be greatly appreciated! Thanks!!!   Phillip Chance, Seattle WA

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/19/2020 at 11:03 PM, Phillip Chance said:

Hi Forrest,

Interesting story, which I realize is several years old.  I recently acquired a single Patrician 800 wth Stereon 850. One of the drivers in the 800 is isn't working. I don't know if the problem might be the pot or the driver (which could be a T25A or a T250, or?).  The problem is that I have been unable to remove the back of the speaker so I could examine the crossover. I have removed all the screws from the back of the speaker, but nothing even budges.  Any suggestions wil be greatly appreciated! Thanks!!!   Phillip Chance, Seattle WA

 

Holy necropost, Batman!

 

Good luck in your search.  Woodog hasn't visited here in 3+ years, but maybe he will come back if you actually ping him via the forum.  Heck, I will do it for you:  @Woodog

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