JonMustang Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Hello All, I've been reading this forum for so long, I feel like I've been a member for years -- but I'm technically brand new and, as of last year, a very happy Klipsch Cornwall owner. I posted this question first in the "2-channel" area but I think it belongs here. Long story short, for my Cornwalls, I sent my Scott LK-72 to Craig at NOSValves in December and hope to hear it again soon. I also just dropped off the matching LT-110 at SerTech Electronics (a local outfit in San Jose, CA). Back when I sent the amp to NOSValves, Craig said he gets caps made to his specs, which sounded pretty impressive. I wanted to give the same quality components to my LT-110 but decided to try SerTech instead due mostly to the turnaround time. Norman, the fella at SerTech, generally felt that just about any good cap that is in spec will do for a tuner restoration -- no need to drop big bucks on ultra-high-end audio caps for one of these. Will I regret going economical on caps for a lil' tuner resto, or is anything spiffy and new going to be basically better than tired, old caps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube fanatic Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Norman, the fella at SerTech, generally felt that just about any good cap that is in spec will do for a tuner restoration -- no need to drop big bucks on ultra-high-end audio caps for one of these. Will I regret going economical on caps for a lil' tuner resto, or is anything spiffy and new going to be basically better than tired, old caps? Norman gave you good advice. Modern, high quality, caps are vastly superior to those of even 30-40 years ago. There's no need to spend a fortune on the so-called "audio grade" caps, even for amplifier service. I've been involved in many blind listening tests which compared high quality modern film caps with many of the popular "audio grade" caps which some promote for use in amplifiers, and the results were totally inconclusive at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Craig's approach isn't so much about obtaining the "most expensive boutique caps"- although he can get them if you want them - he's more about getting the right cap for the job at reasonable prices. Craig not only does thorough work, but he is a LaScala owner as well - which means that his rebuilds always sound great on revealing horn systems. His speaker systems are as demanding as yours, which requires GOOD builds that are distortion free. It's not that Craig gets caps "made to spec" - any competent technician can order caps with the right electrical properties. It's about getting the right caps for SONICS, which Craig has become very good at over the years. If I am doing a toe to toe rebuild on a piece of tube gear, Craig gets it. I could certainly see having a local tech address an issue or two for convenience. Depending on the "depth of rebuild" your tuner requires may depend on which way you go here. If it needs a thorough rebuild, for example a unit that was recently acquired that you plan to keep for the long haul, I have Craig do a complete inspection and rebuild as completely as necessary for long term use. Craig is pretty open and honest about what these units need - he is very much "the anti-snake-oil" approach - no nonsense, will sell you what you need without "padding" unnecessary expenses or add ons. If it is typical for the vintage tuner in question to need only a part or two with alignment, you might do it locally - but if that tuner typically needs a fuller "re-work" - like most unserviced vintage amps do - then send it to Craig. You can ask Craig about this and trust what he tells you. Yes, he wants business but doesn't BS people to get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.H.E. Droid Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 You can learn from Craig's example-- Real electronics people like Craig and Bob Crites know that these "audiopile" products are not magic and must follow the same laws of physics that apply to all electronic components. When you see products that have much higher prices and vague but fantastic claims, you can be pretty sure that the sellers are frauds and crooks, which seems to be epidemic in the audio industry these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 If you have faith in your technician, then you sould go with his advice and not try and second guess him. If you you do not have faith in your technician, then you should find someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Will I regret going economical on caps for a lil' tuner resto you will regret it as much as you will regret not getting all the wires, terminals, screws replaced with silver, platinum, or iridium wires, terminals, screws and all the tubes replaced with cryo tubes, all the solder removed and replaced with silver solder, power transformer replaced with medical grade shielded transformer, yada, yada, yada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube fanatic Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Will I regret going economical on caps for a lil' tuner resto you will regret it as much as you will regret not getting all the wires, terminals, screws replaced with silver, platinum, or iridium wires, terminals, screws and all the tubes replaced with cryo tubes, all the solder removed and replaced with silver solder, power transformer replaced with medical grade shielded transformer, yada, yada, yada Finally, someone has articulated the exact nature of the whole restoration and construction debate!!! If we accept the fact that EVERYTHING in the signal chain has the potential to exert a sonic influence, then all of what Speakerfritz mentioned must be considered, as well as replacing all of the tube sockets with newly manufactured, corrosion free sockets (Deoxit can only do so much.) Wafer switches need to be totally disassembled and cleaned (or in some cases replated.) The carbon resistors used in many vintage amplifiers and other components, while usually of decent quality, are not necessarily the best from a noise standpoint and should be replaced. In restoring vintage gear, EVERY solder joint should be redone (in the shop that was standard procedure for us) as there are many which are "cold" in spite of looking well on the surface (I encounter this every day, particularly with equipment which may have had some moisture exposure at some time in its life.) Every riveted chassis ground connection should be soldered too. So, those who only promote the use of "audio grade" capacitors while ignoring everything else are not offering you the best sonic performance which is available. One must also consider that you can only get so much performance out of a given piece of equipment. Tubes are inherently noisy devices due to the electron flow and other factors. How many hundreds of tubes are you going to try before deciding on "the perfect one?" And, once the tube has some hours of use, it won't be so wonderful any longer! So, trust what Norman tells you. He is obviously speaking from experience. And, as I've stated many times before, NEVER negate the skills of local technicians, many of whom do exemplary work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonMustang Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 It's that exact No-BS professionalism and expertise that had me excited to send the LK-72 to Craig. Honestly, I knew I was gonna send it to him even while I was prowling through estate sales and online auctions to buy one! I liked the idea of the made-to-spec caps he uses not so much for boutique-ness but because, like you're saying, it seems like they're exactly right for the job-- no frills and hit their marks. I'm no expert, but from what I've read, you don't always get the exact same specs on off-the-shelf modern caps as you do on vintage ones, right? I mean, sometimes you've gotta get creative with reaching the correct impedance or something because they don't always make exact duplicates of old caps? So Craig's caps seemed like an ideal solution to me and I was a little worried the tuner restored by the local tech might not get the same attention. Anyway, I've actually got two LT-110s that I dropped off the the local tech, so I just asked him to restore whichever one tests out to be in the best shape. I care a good bit more about the amp than I do about the tuners, so at least I know it's in the right hands with Craig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonMustang Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 Well it certainly sounds like restoring vintage audio components ain't so different from restoring cars, furniture or musicial instruments. The lessons I've learned from restoring the latter holds true; there's always a deeper and more time-consuming level of restoring, something that could be sanded down, updated or re-worked. But eventually you're gonna want to just use the darn thing and for 95% of restorations, just going through the basic functions with good replacement parts and addressing known-issues with smart updates is usually enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.H.E. Droid Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Well it certainly sounds like restoring vintage audio components ain't so different from restoring cars, furniture or musicial instruments. The lessons I've learned from restoring the latter holds true; there's always a deeper and more time-consuming level of restoring, something that could be sanded down, updated or re-worked. But eventually you're gonna want to just use the darn thing and for 95% of restorations, just going through the basic functions with good replacement parts and addressing known-issues with smart updates is usually enough. That's a great analogy. How many times have you seen hapless motorheads who sink $50,000 into restoring a car that will never be worth more than a fraction of that? There is a small subset of vintage hifi gear that has intense collector interest, but for the average user, common sense restoration will restore the item to optimum performance, and in some cases, even a bit better than the original performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Well it certainly sounds like restoring vintage audio components ain't so different from restoring cars, furniture or musicial instruments. The lessons I've learned from restoring the latter holds true; there's always a deeper and more time-consuming level of restoring, something that could be sanded down, updated or re-worked. But eventually you're gonna want to just use the darn thing and for 95% of restorations, just going through the basic functions with good replacement parts and addressing known-issues with smart updates is usually enough. That's a great analogy. How many times have you seen hapless motorheads who sink $50,000 into restoring a car that will never be worth more than a fraction of that? There is a small subset of vintage hifi gear that has intense collector interest, but for the average user, common sense restoration will restore the item to optimum performance, and in some cases, even a bit better than the original performance. I will further that by saying that many people decide to buy a brand new car that will depreciate instead of a fully restored vintage car that will likely maintain its value or actually apreciate. Case in point, I bought a 68 Camaro for under $20,000 last fall. I could have bought a new 2012 Camaro for $40,000. In 5 years, the 2012 will be for sale for about $20-25 grand, and my Camaro will be selling for the same or more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 and your a$$ will have taken $20,000 worth of abuse in those 5 years... K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.