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WVPaul

Biamping crossover suggestion not diy

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Cool mini-rack, dtel! That's downright SWMBO approvable, nice work.

SWMBO would not complain about looks unless it were really ugly, as long as it sounds good. It was her and my daughters idea to even have these speakers.

I'm not complaining at all, but she loves it and does not even want grills which I had thought about doing, and still may, at least some wood trim around the horn.

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I'm 90% sure I'm going for the Crown d-75a. Thanks.

Does it put out enough power for the intended purpose? 40 watts rated @ 1KHz will be around 32 watts from 20Hz-20Khz. What speakers are you driving?

That's a good question, that is enough power to play mine louder than I listen by far but on a lower efficient speaker it might be a problem ?

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Edited my Mon, Apr 2 2012 12:40 AM post to read:

"40 watts rated @ 1kHz may be as low as 32 watts from 20Hz-20kHz."

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But they really sound good when working right, I would love to have some new ones but for what they cost new I would look at comparing other amps.

Those little guys are pricey!

The EV 7100 is rated at 75 wpc, 8 ohms, 20Hz-20kHz is in the same price range. I've never used one though, so I can't recommend it.

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I would forget about "watts per dollar" and focus on sound quality. You don't need a lot of watts. If you are building an active crossed system the fundamentals of "equipment matching" for impedances and sound synergies are far more important and actually critical so you don't wind up sorry you did this.

I built 2-3 active systems that were piss poor because I used Behringer stuff and high powered pro amps. I ended up selling everything and starting from scratch. I was so sorry I ever tried. Yeah, the cheap stuff got me in the game but the sound quality took a dive instead of getting better.

Building an active system is serious business if you are bent on achieving audiophile quility sound. You don't just slap it together on a budget to get better sound.

I suggest consider spending the most you can afford on the processor as this is the heart of it all. Cheaping out here will make you sorry you did this in the first place. I learned this lesson myself twice before I finally spent $1200 on an Ashly processor and then things got really good.

Also, I have found that a GOOD home audio amp will always sound better than a PRO audio amp. That being said there are some very good sounding pro amps that a lot of guys use here (myself included QSC for woofers and subs)..............but they are not as resolving and detailed as a GOOD home audio amp. When I put the QSC (PLX2 1104 and 1804) on the HF horns, they disappointed me.

You just need to decide your goals and move forward accordingly.

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Found this info about the D-75a. I stopped reading at this point:

Ok, in regards to this Crown D-75A I'm getting, I have been told by David Glass at Crown that this amp does indeed put out a thump durring turn-on/off.

This is bad news, especially in an active system. If you decide to use the Thumper-75a, you might want to look at the suggestions in the thread.

http://community.klipsch.com/forums/p/76910/758898.aspx

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I would forget about "watts per dollar" and focus on sound quality. You don't need a lot of watts.

Yeah, that was just me debunking the Emotiva "value leader" myth. I still stand by my statement that pro amps give more bang per buck.

If you are building an active crossed system the fundamentals of
"equipment matching" for impedances and sound synergies are far more
important and actually critical so you don't wind up sorry you did this.

I built 2-3 active systems that were piss poor because I used Behringer stuff and high powered pro amps. I ended up selling everything and starting from scratch. I was so sorry I ever tried. Yeah, the cheap stuff got me in the game but the sound quality took a dive instead of getting better.

Building an active system is serious business if you are bent on achieving audiophile quility sound. You don't just slap it together on a budget to get better sound.

I suggest consider spending the most you can afford on the processor as this is the heart of it all. Cheaping out here will make you sorry you did this in the first place. I learned this lesson myself twice before I finally spent $1200 on an Ashly processor and then things got really good.

Also, I have found that a GOOD home audio amp will always sound better than a PRO audio amp. That being said there are some very good sounding pro amps that a lot of guys use here (myself included QSC for woofers and subs)..............but they are not as resolving and detailed as a GOOD home audio amp. When I put the QSC (PLX2 1104 and 1804) on the HF horns, they disappointed me.

You just need to decide your goals and move forward accordingly.



So you suggest that he dump the Emo's for what, exactly? What other pro amps and crossovers have you used?

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I suggest Emotiva be dumped for strong technical reasons based on his desire to build an active crossed system. The amps have no gain controls. I'm not going any further there. That's fundamental number 1. You can't have a properly balanced system if you can't adjust your amps. You canot use the processor to adjust the volume and gain of your system. You need to use the amp gains. The other issue with Emotiva is they produce high gain amps. Not what you want.

You like Emotiva? Buy it all day long if that's what sounds good to you. I'm just stating some facts concerning this thread.

As far processors, I've worked with Behringer, Crown XTI, EV dx-38, DBX 260 Driverack, and Ashly Protea 4.8SP. Once again I recommend the best processor you can afford becuase this is the place or criticality for controlling the system. There are pluses and minuses to all these. Right now I have the Ashly and am loving it since day 1. I've had it for a couple of years now.

Obviously, choice of amps is of personal taste. I am running an MCM-3 Grand with Klipsch 684 subs. I like the sound of tubes but they are not practical for me to use in such a complicated system with so many amps. I found old McIntosh solid state MC-250s and 2100s that sound very much like tubes and spent a couple of years acquiring them and having them reworked by Terry DeWick in Tennessee. I have a McIntosh tube preamp that also helps bring the tube sound to the system.

For bass and sub duty I use QSC PLX2 amps so I am sure to provide the power the bass moudles and subs require.

So I'm not averse to the pro amps or pro equipment at all. But the 40+ year old Macs destroy the brand new QSC in clarity on the upper frequencies. They are home audio amps from the late 60s / early 70s.

If I was starting over and not allowed to use vintage equipment I would select my processor first, then select a preamp ahead of it that was compatible. Then, and last.....I would select the amps. I would look for good home audio with gain controls and acceptable gain.

Of course this is all in a nutshell. The first couple of active systems I built sounded worse than when I had the passive networks in my speakers. I went backwards and had spent a good few bucks. I had time alignment but non-audiophile sound and wasn't a happy camper at all.

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I'm 90% sure I'm going for the Crown d-75a. Thanks.

Does it put out enough power for the intended purpose? 40 watts rated @ 1kHz may be as low as 32 watts from 20Hz-20kHz. What speakers are you driving?

I am initially biamping a Klipsch center speaker, it is a KLF-20 / KLF-C7 modified speaker with titanium tweeters and midrange, I'll be using the Crown bridged 110 watts for the high/mids with passive crossover in place, I will be using an Emotiva UPA-1 for the woofer no passive crossover, direct connect. Eventually, I will remove the high/mids crossover, I will run the tweeter of one side of the Crown and the midrange off the the other side of the Crown, and leave the woofer as is. So power wise I believe the Crown should be plenty.

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Found this info about the D-75a. I stopped reading at this point:

Ok, in regards to this Crown D-75A I'm getting, I have been told by David Glass at Crown that this amp does indeed put out a thump durring turn-on/off.



This is bad news, especially in an active system. If you decide to use the Thumper-75a, you might want to look at the suggestions in the thread.

http://community.klipsch.com/forums/p/76910/758898.aspx

Dtel, Can you reply about when turning on and off does it pop or thump, this is one reason I passed on Parasound, but I never found any comments about it on the Crown. Till now.

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In response to Mark1101 on 04-02-2012 12:21 PM :

First, I use my system 99% of the time for home theater. I'm using an emotiva XPA-5 for Backs, and Sides, for those it works great, I'm using an XPA-2 for my fronts, it also works great. I am extremely happy with my Emotiva investment and would not change it out. But the center is the speaker I am bi-amping, I only need around 15 watts for tweeter and around 30 watts for midrange and 150 watts for the woofers. Due to yours' and 1504-5 recommendations on page 1 about using amps with gain control. I decided to add an adjustable amp for this bi-amp. My problem was there are not alot of amps rated in the lower wattages, I looked at QSC but the lowest settings were still too high, I looked at Parasound, but not a whole lot of users bi amping with Parasound, after dtel recommended the Crown I did alot of research towards that, there are a quite a few people that have used the Crown for bi amping and seem to recommend it. It seems they like it alot for woofers due to its high damping factor, but there are no complaints about high / mid usage either.

My main focus is on bringing out the dialogue. If you have a recommendation for an amplifier for a center bi amp, with a future upgrade to tri amp please let me know. I'm completely open for any suggestions.

Thanks for all comments and recommendations.

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So you suggest that he dump the Emo's for what, exactly? What other pro amps and crossovers have you used?

I suggest Emotiva be dumped for strong technical reasons based on his desire to build an active crossed system. The amps have no gain controls. I'm not going any further there. That's fundamental number 1. You can't have a properly balanced system if you can't adjust your amps. You canot use the processor to adjust the volume and gain of your system. You need to use the amp gains. The other issue with Emotiva is they produce high gain amps. Not what you want.

You like Emotiva? Buy it all day long if that's what sounds good to you. I'm just stating some facts concerning this thread.


I understand the "why", I meant "what" should the Emotivas be replaced with. What brand amps do you suggest? We need names.


Also, I have found that a GOOD home audio amp will always sound better than a PRO audio amp.


So I'm not averse to the pro amps or pro equipment at all. But the 40+ year old Macs destroy the brand new QSC in clarity on the upper frequencies. They are home audio amps from the late 60s / early 70s.


OK, just so we're on the same page, those statements were made after comparing the PLX2 1104 and 1804, and only the PLX2 1104 and 1804 to your Macs? What other pro amps have you used?

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I can't tell you what amps to buy. I was just trying to help you avoid a mistake. Your use of Emotiva in HT with speakers with passive crossovers seems to be working fine and that's great.

There's a few of us who have been messing with different horns, drivers, and amps..........a few different pro amps, and get together every once in a while. I'll just repeat it, what I have always found is that a good home audio amp will be more detailed, crisper, clearer in the mid and high frequencies than a pro amp. I only used the QSC comparison as an example because I really like the sound of my QSC PLX amps and have swapped them around and tested them carefully. They are just a little disappointing on the HF horns when compared to the vintage macs I have. They also would not stand up to my old Latino and VRD tube amps in clarity. I have personally used several pro amps at home (mostly different Crowns), and but also through audio visits and church experienced quite a lot of those plus many others, and a lot of tubes.

I personally like the Pro amps for bass and sub duty because of power and the ones I have now sound very good to me. But I'll always take a good home audio amp over a pro amp for driving passive networks, and mid and high frequencies of actively crossed systems for home use.

What's a good home audio amp? McIntosh. I never spent over $500 an amp for an MC-250 and once redone by DeWick (around $200) I'd put it up against most any modern amp accept modern McIntosh. You don't need to buy the mega buck amps.

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Yeah, that was just me debunking the Emotiva "value leader" myth. I still stand by my statement that pro amps give more bang per buck.

Mr. 1504-5,

Despite your combative tone, you are providing what I consider valuable information to the OP. Please try to recognize that's all I was trying to do too. I'm more sympathetic to your statement that pro amps give more bang/buck than you're giving credit for. It's really not a point of contention. The fact that Emo is even in the discussion is testament to their value. Dude was just asking if there was a difference between consumer and pro amps, and I think we completely agree about the answer to that one. As for the rest of the Emo/ Behringer/ value leader myth stuff, hopefully the OP is distilling some nuggets of knowledge from it without becoming distracted.

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I'm actually very disappointed with Emotiva after my research. I would never recommend them to anyone. Their specs are questionable and the website is shoddy. Click on the warranty link and see what happens. I think you're missing the point about their value to this discussion completely.

On paper, they are completely worthless for use with an active system. And from what Mark says, this has been verified with actual use. That said, they might work OK with a passive bi-amped system.

http://www.emotiva.com/legal/warranty

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Several people on this board use those 75watt Crowns (D-75 I think). I have never heard one but they represent some middle grounds of sorts. They connect to and are compatible with pro equipment but are more of home audio or studio power rating. The Juicy Music equipment designer Mark Deneen once tested one of those and gave a really good report. You surely shouldn't need more power than that for a center channel , and if you wanted to add more amps they are not that expensive.

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What is your budget for a processor? If you think that this active stuff is going to be "for you", then I would consider a digital unit such as the ones I mention (there are other really good ones as well), and one that has plenty of I/O (channels). if you think you are only going to do the center channel, an analog 2 or 3 Ch. unit just might do it for you. You would get the benefits of the bi or tri amping, but no time alignment. I'm not so sure how important time alignment is for the application of just your center channel. But the message is that a nice digital processor goes a long way if you are considering expanding.........or if you have a really nice sounding system already. You would be happy you made the investment.

I'm thinking that you probably already have a really nice sounding system, and so the primary goal is to not degrade it. That might sound weird at first, but it doesn't automatically sound better just because you bi-amp. You'll be introducing a few new components so you'll want to choose carefully. Trust me on the processor info.

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I'm not so sure how important time alignment is for the application of just your center channel.

I would think that since the center is for dialogue, time alignment would be very important. Since we're so accustomed to hearing the human voice, any distortion, time smearing, etc is easily identified. In fact, I will go so far as to say that the center channel is the most important for accurate audio reproduction in a HT setting. IMO

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I think you're missing the point about their value to this discussion completely

No, I'm not. I merely gave Emo as an example to compare to the Behringer in terms of power disclosure. It was not a recommendation, merely an example given to help the person inquiring make valid comparisons. My post had nothing to do whatsoever with the technical merits of using an Emo in a passive setup, (about which you, Mark, and myself just happen to be in full agreement), or which brand is a better value.

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No, this part:

The fact that Emo is even in the discussion is testament to their value.

Why are they being discussed, again? Because the OP already has them, that's why. That is not a testament to their value, at all. Are you by chance associated with Emotiva, in any way?

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