Spider Talk.....

[moray james]

I thought that I should mention something I used to do years ago when
playing with full range drivers, that is to add damping over the spider.
The spider or inside lower cone suspension is that congregated orange
or brown fabric material which connects the cone (where it joins to the
voice coil) to the basket. Most people do not realize it but the spider
all by it self can and does make a lot of sound (read noise). I have
found that two layers of 1/8 inch SAE rated F-11 felt cut into a
doughnut shape and installed to lay flat over the spider will damp out a
significant amount of "spider talk" (the noise the spider makes). This
has a most impressive impact on the quality of sound your woofer makes
and it also improves articulation as the noise the spider makes tends to
smear transients. With very large heavy cone woofers most of the
spider talk is suppressed but with high efficiency (light cone speakers)
the cone material is light and thin and any spider talk just shouts
right through.

While we are here a layer of Dynamat on the stamped steel basket will
also help suppress basket ringing. Again most folks figure this is not
necessary but I can assure you that once you try it you will hear easily
the difference of with and with out. If you have a bass cabinet which
is not braced in any way these mods will likely be lost on you for the
most part as the box talk will drown out the spider talk and basket
ringing.

These are easy simple to install and inexpensive mods to do which
will help to take your speaker (any speaker) to another level. Best
regards Moray James.

[Tobi]

"If you have a bass cabinet which
is not braced in any way these mods will likely be lost on you for the
most part as the box talk will drown out the spider talk and basket
ringing."

-Bracing.....check

-Dynamat...check (ordered it last night, mainly for the horns and maybe the ports???)

-Feld pad.... (where to get that and does it help on a KLF30?)

I also got a test CD this week for fine tuning the ports. I am concerned about losing internal volume if they get to long.

[Johnny's Jill]

Gothover just spend several days investigating the basket vibrations in the Eminence 15a driver and found the beams were not at fault.

The source of the ringing was a flexing motor mount.

I doubt the spider will be audible.

The dynamat is a fine idea, won't hurt a thing, but will only help if used in the apropriate area's.

Craig 73

[moray james]

The baskets on the H3 woofers have had lengths of one inch plumbing pipe which was split length wise glued to each strut and slices of pipe just the right size to fit between the magnet and the top of the basket also glued into place. This keeps the motor assembly from rocking and the basket struts from flexing. I installed two 1/8" layers of SAE rated F-11 acoustical felt over the spider.

I can assure you that your doubts about not being able to hear the spider talk are wrong. The impact that this single mod has upon the quality of the sound especially the bass is amazing and needs to be experienced. I hope that is of interest to those who are wondering if there is a little more to be had from their speakers. Best regards Moray James.

[ninjai18]

The baskets on the H3 woofers have had lengths of one inch plumbing pipe which was split length wise glued to each strut and slices of pipe just the right size to fit between the magnet and the top of the basket also glued into place. This keeps the motor assembly from rocking and the basket struts from flexing. I installed two 1/8" layers of SAE rated F-11 acoustical felt over the spider.

I can assure you that your doubts about not being able to hear the spider talk are wrong. The impact that this single mod has upon the quality of the sound especially the bass is amazing and needs to be experienced. I hope that is of interest to those who are wondering if there is a little more to be had from their speakers. Best regards Moray James.

 

How would you go about applying the 1/8" acoustical felt over the spider?

[moray james]

The baskets on the H3 woofers have had lengths of one inch plumbing pipe which was split length wise glued to each strut and slices of pipe just the right size to fit between the magnet and the top of the basket also glued into place. This keeps the motor assembly from rocking and the basket struts from flexing. I installed two 1/8" layers of SAE rated F-11 acoustical felt over the spider.

I can assure you that your doubts about not being able to hear the spider talk are wrong. The impact that this single mod has upon the quality of the sound especially the bass is amazing and needs to be experienced. I hope that is of interest to those who are wondering if there is a little more to be had from their speakers. Best regards Moray James.

 

How would you go about applying the 1/8" acoustical felt over the spider?

PM sent.

[ninjai18]

The baskets on the H3 woofers have had lengths of one inch plumbing pipe which was split length wise glued to each strut and slices of pipe just the right size to fit between the magnet and the top of the basket also glued into place. This keeps the motor assembly from rocking and the basket struts from flexing. I installed two 1/8" layers of SAE rated F-11 acoustical felt over the spider.

I can assure you that your doubts about not being able to hear the spider talk are wrong. The impact that this single mod has upon the quality of the sound especially the bass is amazing and needs to be experienced. I hope that is of interest to those who are wondering if there is a little more to be had from their speakers. Best regards Moray James.

 

I am actually still trying to get my head around exactly how you permanently mount it and where it goes, exactly... 

Edited December 7, 2015 by ninjai18

[JJkizak]

I wish they had some simple modification to eliminate that "Honking" box sound for deeper/midrange voices. It seems like the THX people just put the voices back into the background at lower volumes.

Now we have the spiders to worry about.

JJK

[moray james]

nothing new about spider talk or immediate reflections off of pole pieces in tweeters and comp drivers. You don't think it is a problem till you treat it to some F-ll felt and hear the difference. Someone tells this is bunk you ask them if they have ever treated it? I also use F-ll to acoustically filter the top end of my woofers. Best regards moray james.

[pzannucci]

I wish they had some simple modification to eliminate that "Honking" box sound for deeper/midrange voices. It seems like the THX people just put the voices back into the background at lower volumes.

Now we have the spiders to worry about.

JJK

Get the crossover as low as possible.  If it is up around 450-700 you are in trouble.  If you can get it down around 250-300hz with a high order crossover or lower with a 12db or lower crossover, the vocals won't be near as impacted.

[JJkizak]

 

I wish they had some simple modification to eliminate that "Honking" box sound for deeper/midrange voices. It seems like the THX people just put the voices back into the background at lower volumes.

Now we have the spiders to worry about.

JJK

Get the crossover as low as possible.  If it is up around 450-700 you are in trouble.  If you can get it down around 250-300hz with a high order crossover or lower with a 12db or lower crossover, the vocals won't be near as impacted.

 

 

They are Dean crossovers so I am not sure where that point is. I assume it is the same as the stock ones. What is funny is if I raise the bass tone control up 4 db it reduces that honking effect to very low which is a mystery to me.

JJK

[moray james]

I wish they had some simple modification to eliminate that "Honking" box sound for deeper/midrange voices. It seems like the THX people just put the voices back into the background at lower volumes.

Now we have the spiders to worry about.

JJK

Get the crossover as low as possible.  If it is up around 450-700 you are in trouble.  If you can get it down around 250-300hz with a high order crossover or lower with a 12db or lower crossover, the vocals won't be near as impacted.

I agree that lower crossover points that you mentioned are a good plan but what horn are you going to use to play that low? It's going to get very large as in K402 large. Klipsch and most other companies have developed the habit of running horns down to the hairy edge where they have lost pattern control as in say 50 Hz above their cut off frequency is pretty standard even lower some times. If you look at old days standard two way monitor designs 500 Hz was the practical point to cross over and the horns are big and so are the drivers if you want low distortion thought the K55 is truly an amazing little driver than can (at home playback levels) play very low indeed. Best regards moray james.

[pzannucci]

 

 

I wish they had some simple modification to eliminate that "Honking" box sound for deeper/midrange voices. It seems like the THX people just put the voices back into the background at lower volumes.

Now we have the spiders to worry about.

JJK

Get the crossover as low as possible.  If it is up around 450-700 you are in trouble.  If you can get it down around 250-300hz with a high order crossover or lower with a 12db or lower crossover, the vocals won't be near as impacted.

 

I agree that lower crossover points that you mentioned are a good plan but what horn are you going to use to play that low? It's going to get very large as in K402 large. Klipsch and most other companies have developed the habit of running horns down to the hairy edge where they have lost pattern control as in say 50 Hz above their cut off frequency is pretty standard even lower some times. If you look at old days standard two way monitor designs 500 Hz was the practical point to cross over and the horns are big and so are the drivers if you want low distortion thought the K55 is truly an amazing little driver than can (at home playback levels) play very low indeed. Best regards moray james.

 

That's why I am limited to my dual Focal Audiom 6WMs.  You can get in the efficiency range with some of the 6.5" or 8" pro mid-ranges.  Nothing Klipsch makes for home use though.  That will clean up the mid-bass very well though and make a night and day difference on vocals.

[wvu80]

I wonder if that mod would have any effect on the the much larger sub-woofer spider?

+++

 

One of the problems we have in communication is the language.  I have heard the descriptions as "spider talk" or "ringing" with the improvements being "amazing."  Those words don't have meaning for me because I don't know what they mean.

 

I think in terms of orchestra, because those instruments have specific sonic signatures I know pretty well.  If someone said that they could now hear both French horn and trumpets distinctly in a familiar recording, I know exactly what that should sound like.  Many jazz groups use a tenor sax and an alto sax, each of which has its own characteristic sound which can be lost.  Will damping a spider bring that distinction back?

 

That is what would sell me on buying expensive acoustical F-1 felt ($33 per yard, $66 minimum order) to put on spider baskets.

http://www.thefeltcompany.com/f-11-13-wool-felt-1-8-thick-x-72-wide/

[Paducah Home Theater]

I wonder if that mod would have any effect on the the much larger sub-woofer spider?

 

Seems to me that it would be more important.  At the lowest frequencies you've got a whole bunch of spider movement in respect to the sound that's being put out.  If it's noisy, it would show up here the most.  Although, I don't see how you're going to have this mod move that much and not fall off or otherwise do something weird.  

 

What I don't understand is why you can have multiple mirror image spiders in subwoofers and this somehow reduces distortion.  Is there an air pocket in between the two that is keeping them from flexing as badly?  I'm not sure.  Lots of them are built like this:

 

Edited December 8, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[wvu80]

Good points, MLO.  The spider by definition is very specifically damped to produce certain mechanical and therefore audio properties.  My understanding is spiders for car subs are stiffer than those designed for home use.

 

[Paducah Home Theater]

My understanding is spiders for car subs are stiffer than those designed for home use.

 

The spider and surround of most every sub I've seen, especially larger ones, is definitely way stiffer than the typical copper woofers that Klipsch uses.  My ultimaxes took about 100 hours of use before it sounded decent at all it was so stiff, everything requiring definition was muffled like you were pressing on it with a foam pillow.  

[pzannucci]

Many surrounds are foam based for compliance and also mechanical noise.  Double spider woofers will only allow you to attack one though anything flexing will produce noise and distortion.  Anything you can do to damp or hide that distortion will be a plus.

[Paducah Home Theater]

So do mirror image spiders do about the same thing as this felt mod?  

Edited December 8, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[DrWho]

It's my understanding that the dual spider designs are there to help reduce voice coil rocking. This allows one to have a smaller gap between the voice coil and the magnetic structure, which increases the strength of the motor. I bet it's also related to strength when bottoming out the sub - which is going to be common for subwoofers. Higher frequency drivers simply don't need to move as much, so the single spider is more than strong enough at the limit.

 

My question about the felt mod is how much attenuation are you getting? This would be something very easy to measure. I cannot fathom how a thin piece of felt is going to attenuate the "noise" significantly more than the attenuation provided by the speaker cone itself. Maybe 1dB'ish at best?

 

I think what's more likely happening is that the resonance of the suspension is changing frequency. Generally designers try to push that resonance above the passband of interest. Adding mass to the suspension is going to lower that resonant frequency - likely down into the passband. The effect is subtle, but I don't like the sound of spider resonance. I'd much rather keep it above the range of my driver, but maybe some people like the sound of it? Maybe adding the mass causes it to be a wider Q and therefore gets stimulated less easily? I think method of attachment would be more important here.

 

If I were trying to attenuate suspension noises, then I'd be looking at ways to absorb sound that don't involve attaching things to the moving structure. Internal damping of the cabinet will go a long way in that regard (which is just a fancy way of saying use a pillow inside).

 

Btw, the best way to hear suspension noise is to play subsonic frequencies. Air leaks from the gasket seal make little air puffing sounds, sometimes it sounds like a squeak. You can hear the suspension flapping around too - often times the voice coil leads are bouncing against the diaphragm and spider - a minor bend here and there can prevent that from happening. The thing is the noises really don't start showing up until you're really pushing things hard. If you bring down the excursion to better match what's happening at the normal passband frequencies, then all of those noises really go away. All you hear is your voice modulating a little bit like talking into a fan.

 

All that to say, I think I'd put this in the category of more potential to do harm than add benefit. But hey, maybe there's some crazy floppy spiders out there that just make all sorts of noise. I think I'd personally rather spend my time finding a better driver....like that Klipsch K48. That's a solid low noise driver (when kept under its xmax).