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Suggestions for Setup


Incloud

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For a little over a year now I have had the components in my signature. I am using the RXV-765 Yamaha receiver with WF-34 Fronts, WC-24 Center, Quintet Surrounds and Synergy Sub 12. Though I was Gung Ho when I first got the setup, it sounds nice but has always been difficult to enjoy without the volume cranked. Using YPAO always sets odd distances and very low levels. I am wondering what the best crossover setting would work for me when my fronts start at 45hz, center at 85hz and surrounds 120hz. I think I have this right. Right now I have all speakers set to small, 120 for receiver crossover and sub all the way up, which is 120 also for crossover. I get more unified sound between the fronts and sub with the receiver set to BOTH rather than SUB. It would be nice to get this right and be able to hear the dialogue in movies, have smooth but somewhat powerful bass and retain details from the surrounds. Unless I'm missing something, I either get really good bass and low detail or lack in LFE and have amazing detail. Sorry if this sounds confusing, I have been researching and trying different settings for a week now and can't settle. One other request would be how or what source of sound do people use for setting up their system? I just find a good part in a movie and keep replaying it until it sounds good. Unfortunately that works for that movie and sounds off in another movie. Would be nice if my receiver didn't have to block the screen (OSD) to make adjustments. Anyway, I would truly appreciate any tips from more experienced users or maybe someone with a similar setup to mine. Thanks in advance for any and all replies regarding this confusion of mine. Incloud!

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It sounds like you have everything set right. Although I don't get why you have bass with no detail or no bass with good detail. Maybe you meant more vocals? Not sure... Although I would think from reading this a few times to make sure I understand, that to me it sounds like you are having to crank to hear dialogue. I have read lots of reviews regarding the wc-24 being not a great center channel. Have you tried downloading a cheaply spl meter on your smartphone and checking to make sure you are level matched all the way around. Maybe the mcacc is messing something up. I would try that first

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Good point on using an SPL meter to make sure things are level matched. I used my HD 500 satellite speakers for a very short time when my front were the Icon VF 35, VC 25, and the satellites for front height and surrounds. I was just not happy with the mis-matched speakers sound. The avr just did not blend them well. I would suggest regular surround speakers when possible. Even though the satellite speakers have a 120Hz rating, I think it is safe to try a XO of 100. The avr most likely will not send much below 100 Hz to the speaker. If dialogue is a problem, don't boost the center channle, but decrease the main speakers . This trick may help. Also boosting the 3.5-6 kHz may help with the vocals.

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Great idea for the SPL Meter. I would have never thought of that. I had bought an SPL Meter from Radio Shack a while back and gave it a go. Not much was accomplished. Thanks for the tips.

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Incloud,

Welcome to the forum.

I just looked at your Yamaha's owner's manual and it appears(unless I misread) that you can set up each speakers crossover differently. Pages 54-55 are where I looked. If that is possible, try setting all speakers to small and your fronts to 60Hz, center 80Hz and your surrounds to 120Hz. I could be completely wrong but my 2007 low/mid level receiver Onkyo TX-SR705 allows individual crossovers for each speaker. Just a thought.

Bill

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Good point on using an SPL meter to make sure things are level matched. I used my HD 500 satellite speakers for a very short time when my front were the Icon VF 35, VC 25, and the satellites for front height and surrounds. I was just not happy with the mis-matched speakers sound. The avr just did not blend them well. I would suggest regular surround speakers when possible. Even though the satellite speakers have a 120Hz rating, I think it is safe to try a XO of 100. The avr most likely will not send much below 100 Hz to the speaker. If dialogue is a problem, don't boost the center channle, but decrease the main speakers . This trick may help. Also boosting the 3.5-6 kHz may help with the vocals.

I will try an SPL in the near future. My speakers Front, Center match up pretty well with the EQ off. The Quintets are fairly spread out and a distance from the mains making them not stand out drastically. You mentioned 100 hz, I actually had it set at 80 and then 120 earlier today. 120 on the AVR gave great detail all around but lacked in bass hits. I bumped it down to 110 before I read this and also set the sub at 110. Not sure if this is the correct way to do it but without adjusting the gain down, I barely get any bass response. I have to have them match or get lousy response. I actually have all the speaker levels set all the way at max and adjust the distances to achieve my desired sound. Maybe that is incorrect? YPAO sets the levels way too low. I am going to try your suggestion and set my AVR and sub to 100 and see what I get. Not sure what others use for volume but I hardly ever watch a movie any louder than -32db. Is it possible that the YPAO is setting the levels lower and I just need to use more volume? I always figured it was bad for the speakers to go close to 0db. I'm a developer / designer, definitely not an audiophile at this point. It is very interesting and far more complex than I had realised. "Boosting the 3.5-6 kHz", I'd imagine means in the EQ, correct? Thanks a lot guys for the suggestions, they are greatly appreciated and I learn a ton from asking all these noobie questions.

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Incloud,

Welcome to the forum.

I just looked at your Yamaha's owner's manual and it appears(unless I misread) that you can set up each speakers crossover differently. Pages 54-55 are where I looked. If that is possible, try setting all speakers to small and your fronts to 60Hz, center 80Hz and your surrounds to 120Hz. I could be completely wrong but my 2007 low/mid level receiver Onkyo TX-SR705 allows individual crossovers for each speaker. Just a thought.

Bill

That would be sweet! Not sure where you saw that but I will certainly be taking a closer look. I was actually thinking of buying a new network receiver with intentions of specifically aiming for individual crossover settings. If my receiver is capable, I've never figured out how. I have spent many hours toying with it. Thanks for the heads up, I will go take a look at pages 54-55. I'll be like a kid in the candy store if it's true. Thanks again, I'll check back shortly!

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Incloud,

Welcome to the forum.

I just looked at your Yamaha's owner's manual and it appears(unless I misread) that you can set up each speakers crossover differently. Pages 54-55 are where I looked. If that is possible, try setting all speakers to small and your fronts to 60Hz, center 80Hz and your surrounds to 120Hz. I could be completely wrong but my 2007 low/mid level receiver Onkyo TX-SR705 allows individual crossovers for each speaker. Just a thought.

Bill

That would be sweet! Not sure where you saw that but I will certainly be taking a closer look. I was actually thinking of buying a new network receiver with intentions of specifically aiming for individual crossover settings. If my receiver is capable, I've never figured out how. I have spent many hours toying with it. Thanks for the heads up, I will go take a look at pages 54-55. I'll be like a kid in the candy store if it's true. Thanks again, I'll check back shortly!

I read the entire manual front to back and the only adjustments for individual speakers are level and distance. Oh well, my next receiver will certainly have crossover capabilities for each speaker. Thanks again!

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I do not have the capability of setting individual crossover for each speaker. At this point I have all my speakers set to small and crossover at 120hz. I have the sub LFP all the way up bypassing its crossover. I believe this is how it works. My Fronts get very little output unless set to Large. I set the Fronts to large and the sub to Both. This combination with the AVR set to 120hz gives really good detail and overall smooth bass throughout. I also, as suggested, downloaded an android app for a Sound Meter and set all levels for each speaker to match in decibels. That made a serious impact on unity between my speakers. Right now I am fine tuning the sub and AVR crossover for best performance. In all, I have come quite a way from where I started. Any further suggestions are always welcome and I Thank all of you for your helpful input.

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The Icon W speaker are not bass heavy speakers and do need a sub. Something tells me once you get new surround speakers, that the synergy in your system will greatly improve. Also, play with the distace from the rear wall to increase the bass. Since the woofer are not that large, 4-6 inches away from the wall should increase the bass response. Coner loading the sub will give you more bass.

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I was just watching a movie with the fronts set to large and sub set to both. The bass knocked a shelf off the wall and was causing major jackhammer vibration on the door to the room. way too much bass. I switched back to all speakers set to small, sub LPF all the way up and volume about half. Any suggestions regarding the level setting on the AVR for the sub. It's really hard to decide what sounds good when watching a movie. When I get it adjusted and sounding great in a movie, it doesn't sound nearly as good in another movie or music for that matter. I have been trying everything and keep starting over, hoping for better results. It is certainly addicting! Thanks for all your help guys. What is coner loading? Do you mean cornering the sub? My entire system is less than a year old, I'll be divorced if I buy any new equipment yet. LOL.

One other thing, What do you guys suggest for settings to get more from the front speakers without setting them to large. When set to small, they seem to barely use their potential. I understand that they are not able to be full-range or provide enormous bass. But my wf-34 fronts do have pretty damn good power and sound alone. It's a shame to just get highs from them at the small setting. When the wf-34's push bass, my sub matches them very good. Sorry for all the questions. I just get really good ideas and learn a lot from these forums. Thanks in advance for any and all support.

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to preface, i read your first post and skimmed the rest.

People love audessey and all kinds of room correction but i am a purist. I calibrate everything by my ears. I'd suggest you do a reset of your receiver and start over.

Lets start with the sub. I cross mine over at 60hz. For you, an 80hz crossover will be more fitting for your system. Make sure the crossover matches on your sub too if it has it on the back (which it should).

The WF-34's can be set to small or large. You have the sub doing heavy lifting so you could set your towers to small. Really, i have found it to be preference what it gets set to. i'd cross them at 60hz as well if you can. With my wf-35's i cross them at 40hz, anything lower gets very chesty and loses defintion becomming sloppy. I also have my 35's set to large. 60hz should like your wf-34's and let them perform well.

WC-24 is a neat center and i actually like it a lot. I'd cross that sucker at 80hz. Anything lower and it gets too chesty sounding. again small/large is up to you. I think i have mine set to small.

Surrounds at 120 hz is good for quintets and set to small.

Set all your distance to what you think they are. I always wind up increasing the gain on the rear surrounds because i like them more emphasized. I like to realize that stuff is going on behind me in a movie, a lot of the time it goes unoticed which its really supposed to.

I also run my centers a few db higher than everything else. For instance my wc-24 is set i think 1,2, or 3 db higher than the left and right channels. All of my speakers start off at 0db and i adjust from there. Left/Right stay at 0db, center is 1-3db higher and surrounds can be around 5-7db higher. I like the center to stand out a bit and i find it helps to clarify vocal definition by "lifting" it from the rest of the sounds in the movie. I do this subtly though, i want it just ever so slightly above the rest so that its noticable but not obstrusive.

Not knowing your receivers options i am suggesting this. I don't know if you can set individually gains, crossover, large/small. In the event you have a single crossover, put it at 80hz and let your sub do the bottom end 80hz and down. You should be able to choose large/small for each speaker though. Large for towers, small for center and surrounds.

The goal here is to start over with a blank slate and rule out variables. Also keep in mind too, music vs ht require different settings for best sound. Different movies have better/worse soundtracks so its hard to pick what settings are best. With high end speakers you can really pick up on shitty soundtracks versus the awesome soundtracks. My processor allows me to change trims of sound levels as i see fit and I do do this depending in the ,ovie i am watching and often increase/reduce the subwoofer gain.

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Thanks for your input. I think what is confusing me the most is that 80hz is the THX standard. My WF-34 start at about 50hz. This said, a lower crossover of 60 for the sub would give more bass output to the WF-34. The WC-24 starts at about 85hz. The Quintets start off at 120hz. If I set the crossover on AVR to 120hz with the sub LPF bypassed, I get excellent sound detail throughout the system and due to the fact that all the low frequencies are being handled directly from the sub and everything above 120hz all my speakers can handle effortlessly. Sad thing is, I get lousy bass response with AVR crossover at 120hz. With AVR crossover at 80-100 the bass is very strong but I lose everything between 80 and 120 from my Quintets. I can not seem to find a happy medium. Hope this is not all too confusing. I only have one crossover in AVR for all speakers is the problem. If I had the capability of adjusting crossover per set of speakers I would be all that much better off. I'm just trying to get as much as my WF-34 will handle while retaining as much detail as possible in the Surrounds without boomy bass. Thanks again for your response.

Here's the manual:

http://static.tigerdirect.com/pdf/RX-V765_manual.pdf

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if you have very limited crossover settings then use your subs crossover on the back of the unit, 80s probably about right for you

then set the rest of the speakers to small and start out at 60 and go up until it sounds the way you like it, its going to be tough to set it up "perfect" with limited functions in the receiver, I would probably set all of your speakers inbetween 70-80

2 options, buy new rear speakers or receiver

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When a manufacturer gives a speaker frequency reponse, it doesnt always mean they are hard limits. Your quintets at lower volumes will go lower than 120hz. Speakers are designed to have rolloff. This means that the louder the speaker gets, the less low end frequencies are produced. There are usually different orders of roll off too (different levels).

The THX 80 hz isnt a law here. 80 hz is for THX and if you have a THX speaker set, it is designed to be crossed at 80hz. You don't have a THX setup and the majority dont. Welcome to freedom!

The wc-24 will work just fine with an 80hz crossover.

Since you have one crossover, cross everything at 80hz. Set the LPF for the sub at 80hz so it handles 80hz and below and the system should sound cohesive. Set the center and surrounds to small and mess with small/large on the WF-34's

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Thanks a lot for your help. I've got it sounding pretty good but it is completely intolerable having to turn the volume up and down all the time. My girl and I watch movies all the time and she constantly has me turn it up so we can hear what people are saying. You literally have to crank some movies just to hear voices. They always sound muffled out, like they are talking through a pillow or something. My last system was like that too. Problem is that you turn the volume up to hear the voices and when an action scene or anything of the sort comes, you get blown out of the room. All this equipment and half the time for the past year we end up just watching movies in stereo so we can relax and enjoy it. Not sure what the problem is but I can not find a fix. I have tried numerous forums and Googled for days. Back to stereo I guess! It sucks when she says, "surround sound is so annoying."

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You should find another setting in there to raise the db levels of individual sets of speakers, it will be somewhere near you other settings like speaker distance and frequency, you can raise the center up a few notches this way, some centers just dont have a super crisp detail and some receivers make speakers react poorly, I hated my yamaha with klipsch

If that setting doesn't exist for some reason I'd certainly look at upgrading

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Or you can see if your avr or source player have a dsp mode called night or something like that. That will allow vocals to be plenty loud and then when music comes on or something explodes it suppresses the noise. You could do that. I personally don't care for that cause it squashes every channel including the sub which takes all the impact away and leaves me with that "why don't I just use my tv's sound bar cause it sounds good just not super loud" feeling.

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