RF-7's Lack of Bass Response

[skedadl]

Hello,

I am a

newcomer to the forums, and am impressed with the depth of knowledge contained

in the collective membership! As a

member of several other forums (not related to sound systems), I have found

these types of venues to be vastly helpful with issues that arise from time to

time.

I need

some assistance or suggestions in sorting out an issue I have with a nice pair

of RF-7’s that I bought new in 2005.

When I

first purchased the speakers, I had them connected as part of a home theater

system using a mid-level Yamaha 5.1 home theater receiver. I was then, and am now, using the RF-7’s as

the “front” speakers in a 5.1 setup. At

the time of initial installation, all seemed fine, and the speakers seemed to

perform pretty well. It took me quite

awhile to get used to the “brightness” of the Klipsch speakers, but I expected

that. At that time, bass response seemed

adequate, but not what others have described these speakers are capable of, not

to mention the advertising by Klipsch. I

chalked it up to inadequacies in the Yamaha receiver, and did nothing

further. Most of my listening was done

in the context of home theater movie viewing.

Also, at that time, I really didn’t spend that much time listening to

the system, and certainly not in the context of listening to audio tracks on CD

or other media.

In 2008,

I purchased an Onky TX-SR805 home theater receiver, and have been using that

ever since, again, primarily using the system in a home theater context. Again, I have not spent much time listening

or using this system, until now.

The

system is set up in a fairly large, carpeted “bonus” room, approximately 600

square feet, and the RF-7’s are spaced approximately 12 feet apart, on the main

back wall of the room, about a foot from the wall. The speakers themselves are as new, as is the

Onkyo receiver. I’d be willing to bet

there aren’t a 100 hours on the entire system. My issue is a

significant lack of bass response from the RF-7’s. In fact, bass response is almost nonexistent.

As with

most home theater receivers, the Onkyo lets the user choose different sound

fields. I have a nice Klipsch subwoofer that

I recently purchased, and using the 5.1 sound fields, the bass response is

nice, but only due to the subwoofer. If

I choose any of the stereo sound fields, or what Onkyo calls “Pure Audio,” and

remove the subwoofer from the equation, I get very little, if any, bass

response from the RF-7’s. I have removed

the speaker grills at elevated volumes, and can barely “feel” any movement from

any of the four woofers using any of the offered sound fields, including "Pure Audio."

I recall

a few years ago cycling the system between one format and another (likely a

movie to music), and someone had left the Onkyo turned on and it was cranked up

to an elevated volume level. The music

started and “hit” pretty hard when switched from movie to music, and I

wondered, at the time, whether the RF-7’s had been “injured.” However, since new, I have always had the

feeling that the RF-7’s were significantly lacking in bass response. Did I break something?

Forgive

my lack of technical expertise, or use of layman’s language in this post. I am not well versed in current audio system

nomenclature, having grown up in the 70’s with my beloved Technics SA-40

receiver and a pair of off-brand speakers that I could tear the roof off with

in college. J I still have

the SA-40, but have tucked it away for archaeologists to uncover someday.

Any

advice, or suggestions, would be most welcome.

Thanks in advance.

Nick

[Chris A]

Try setting your front speakers to "large" on your Onkyo AV receiver. This setting will let them overlap your subwoofer's frequency response band. Additionally, set your Onkyo to "Stereo" instead of "Pure Audio" while in PCM (2-channel) mode --while playing 2-channel CDs/SACDs/etc. Also, just for grins, try setting your subwoofer crossover frequency on your Onkyo receiver to 50 Hz.

Next: try pushing your RF-7s backward until they are touching or almost touching the front wall and move them outwards until they are within a foot or so of your side walls. You should get a lot more bass response if you do this.

Chris

[RockOn4Klipsch]

Alot of it is room factor. One thing I will say is that I was never impressed with the way the Onkyo 805 handled anything musically. It was a solid performed in the home theater arena and that is it. Many fellow forum members have come to a similiar agreement in regards to the 805, hopefully some other will chime in.

As cask has suggested , you need to reposisition your speakers if at all possible to find where they sound best, then find a way to move the furniture around the speakers.

The possibility that you damaged the speakers is there, but I think the chances are pretty low as the RF7 have a high peak power rating. if the loud passage was brief and rectified soon after I think the speakers will survive.

[Zen Traveler]

I have removed the speaker grills at elevated volumes, and can barely “feel” any movement from any of the four woofers using any of the offered sound fields, including "Pure Audio."

Are the jumpers on the +/+ -/- binding post on the RF-7s connected?

[skedadl]

The jumpers are connected, and the speaker wires are connected to the lower set of posts on the RF-7's.

Additionally, in the Onkyo speaker set-up menu, there is a choice between 6 ohms impedance and 4 ohms, but not 8. I have it set on 6, currently, if this makes a difference.

Thanks for the responses so far.

Nick

[derrickdj1]

It would be interesting to test your RF 7's in another room without the sub and set them to a 4 ohm load. I have heard, treat the RF 7's as 4 ohm speakers when running them set to large. I never use pure direct on the avr, because in most instances, the bass response will be less. A properly functioning RF 7 should not suffer from poor bass response.

[Chris A]

Are the jumpers on the +/+ -/- binding post on the RF-7s connected?

Also check the polarity of the jumpers - you can even switch the polarity of one low frequency jumper while playing to listen for any increase in bass response. If you get more bass response, you've identified the problem.

Chris

[ousig]

set your fronts to "large" and tell the receiver you do not have a sub then listen to them. Honestly to get those big speakers cranking you need about double the power you have. Of course they will play very loud and clear as is but if you want big bass you need big power. I mean look at your sub - you probably have 200+ watts at least to 1 speaker (sorry didnt notice your model). Your RF7s have 4 10 inch woofers...so do the math.

They will play plenty loud and keep up with any sub in the 60/80HZ and up but if you want to get bass you need more power or bi amp them.

I used to have the KLF20s and like yours they have 2 10 inch woofers. I had them hooked up to a 200 watt/channel QSC amp (real power not AVR power) and they could play extreme bass when cranked up loud - and very clear.

When I had them on my Denon they still had good bass but like you are saying unless I had it up nearly all the way on a bass heavy track the woofers did not move very much at all - just not enough power to get them excited. And that is a big reason I downsized...I just was not able to use the KLFs like they should be in my room/setup.

and also the "pure audio" setting will not only bypass the subwoofer but it will turn off any internal EQ where you may have the bass ticked up a little bit. So you are getting very little bass pressure from your AVR in this setting. That is why I say just run your normal setup, but remove the sub from the receivers output and put the mains as large - then report back

[skedadl]

Found the bass!

Here is what I did, all at once, unfortunatlely, so I'm not sure what cured the problem, but I am inclined to think all of the below actions had an effect:

1. Moved the speaker connecting wires from the "HF" posts to the "LF" posts on the back of the RF-7's. The posts are side by side on my RF-7's, not top to bottom as I originally recalled. I left the jumper wires in place, and they are correctly wired to their respective + and - posts.

2. Moved the speakers out from the back wall about 15 inches. They were literally pushed up against the back wall originally. :-(

3. Turned the subwoofer "off" on the Onkyo, and set the sound field for "Stereo."

4. Changed the front speaker setting to "40hz." There is no "large" setting on the Onkyo. By setting the front speakers to "40hz," the subwoofer is automatically turned off. As noted above, I also turned the subwoofer "off" in its settings. There is an additional setting called "Dynamic," which I tried later, and that seems to sound pretty much the same, as long as I leave the subwoofer "off" (see #3 above). When set to "Dynamic," the system defaults back to using the subwoofer, unless turned "off" as noted in #3 above.

5. Changed the ohm setting on the Onkyo from 6 to 4 (there is no option for 8).

With the above changes, the "highs" are not as crisp and clear as they used to be. Or, maybe they are, but are "mellowed" a bit by the newfound bass. My plan is to bi-wire the speakers, removing the jumpers, and see how it sounds (perhaps, if its lost, I will re-capture some of the crispness of the highs). As it happens, the Onkyo provides a nice option for bi-wiring by using one of the rear surround channels (I'm only running 5.1 anyway, so no big deal for home theater use).

And the bass? Oh yeah! That's more like it! Finally, my RF-7's are performing in two channel stereo the way I always imagined they would. Too bad it took me 5 years to figure it out. I need to abandon some other hobbies. I forgot how much I like to listen to good music on a decent system. The current setup sounds pretty good to me, and I'm quite happy at this point.

Thanks again for the help.

Nick

[jacksonbart]

I think #2 and #3 fixed it.

[Fish]

I think #2 and #3 fixed it.

I agree, and the 7's need a sub, imo.

[Zen Traveler]

Imo, everyone needs a sub or two and the RF-7s work fine down to 60 Hz in my Home Theater.

[Fish]

I think 99% of all systems could use a sub.

[dtel]

I don't have RF-7's but aren't they rear ported ? If so being flat on the back wall would block the port, could have been the big problem ?

[Fish]

I don't have RF-7's but aren't they rear ported ? If so being flat on the back wall would block the port, could have been the big problem ?

Yep, rear ported and the front baffle needs to be a minimum 30 inches to 36 inches from rear wall.

[Chris A]

...being flat on the back wall would block the port...

Not if they're toed in like they should be. Also note that moving them out from the front wall increases FR dip somewhere in the 200-300 Hz region. It will also affect the 30-60 Hz region.

I think that a lot of people pull their speakers out from the front wall and don't properly toe them in because they've got a lot of equipment and other stuff between their front speakers which act as early reflectors of midrange energy, which signifcantly affects stereo imaging in a negative way.

A better approach is to move the equipment rack(s) to the side and to place absorbant panels/tiles on the sides on any center channel/TV rack that's left over between the speakers, and perhaps a few tiles on the front wall between the speakers. Then you get both the smooth and extended lf response (with lower AM and FM distortion) from having the speakers on a boundary (toed in), and freedom from early midrange reflectors, which preserves stereo imaging.

The combined lf response at your listening position will increase if you place them in proximity to the corners of the room, toed in. They need to be within 18 inches of the corner for the effect to be realized.

Just my $0.02...

Chris

[derrickdj1]

I would like to try my speakers in the corner, but the room will not let me. Somehow, the room limitations is always a deciding factor unless you have a dedicated HT room. I found my RF 7's sound best 1ft. from the wall with a slight toe-in for imaging.