artto Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 If you really want to put the Creme de La creme on the center speaker try using a time delay to get it time aligned with the side speakers. I've been using a Behringer DEQ2496 (three actually ~ one for subwoofer EQ and time delay, one for EQ - if I want to switch it in, and time delay on the a Belle center speaker, and the third one for EQ - again, only switched in if I want the EQ on the L&R Khorns). With the time delay on the center speaker I've been able to run it at the same sound level as the flanking Khorns instead of the recommended -3dB to -6dB without time delay. I have yet to find anything that sounds too forward or aggressive or prominent from the center speaker. It makes everything much more "coherent". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Crikey, artto, with your room and system why not just rent an orchestra??? [] LOVE to hear your system someday. I've been blown away when you posted details of your system... The only time delay I can afford is to move the speakers back and forward. [] Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tromprof Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 I have been reading this and it has got me itching to try a center speaker. I have a pair of k-horns in my basement that are 22 feet apart. The imaging is quite good but it would be fun to see what a center speaker would add. I would like to build something and I have spare a k-400 horn and matching driver, as well as a Ct-125 tweeter. The only problem is the bass. If I go the cornscala route the center will have bass reflex unlike the k-horns, which apparently Mr. Klipsch thought a bad idea. How important is bass for a center channel in a two channel system. Between the k-horns and the Cinema F-20 sub that goes with them I am not bass deficient in any way. Any thoughts on what might happen if I just used the squaker and tweeter (with a regular type A crossover so the mid doesn't go below its capabilities)? Will a bass reflex design, if turned down lower that the k-horns, ruin otherwise good clean bass? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 The only problem is the bass. Others milage may vary, but I disagree. You've got plenty of inherently non-directional bass. If your center channel handles the mid-highs in a complementary and seamless manner with the 'horns, you don't need no stinkn' bass in the center. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 If the bass track comes from the center you do need the bass speaker. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 I have been reading this and it has got me itching to try a center speaker. The only problem is the bass. If I go the cornscala route the center will have bass reflex unlike the k-horns, which apparently Mr. Klipsch thought a bad idea. Any thoughts on what might happen if I just used the squaker and tweeter (with a regular type A crossover so the mid doesn't go below its capabilities)? Will a bass reflex design, if turned down lower that the k-horns, ruin otherwise good clean bass? PWK didn't think it was a bad idea to use a bass reflex like a Cornwall as a center speaker between Khorns. In fact earlier brochures showed a Cornwall sitting between Khorns. Also the Heresy was originally intended to be used as a small center speaker between flanking Khorns. What was later recommended, after the Belle and LaScala came along is that they be used as the best solution for a center speaker between the Khorns because of their lower overall distortion and more similar "voicing". So as far as using a "bass deficient" speaker for the center speaker, there's nothing "wrong" with that, it's just not the "ultimate" solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Crikey, artto, with your room and system why not just rent an orchestra??? LOVE to hear your system someday. I've been blown away when you posted details of your system... The only time delay I can afford is to move the speakers back and forward. Dave Well, Dave, to tell you the truth, 30 years ago, if I had known it was going to go this far, I probably would have considered doing just that! However, there would be the recurring expenses and of course scheduling issues. Now it's just a little more cost on the electric bill. You know, those Behringer DEQ2496 can be had new for as little as $200 if you're really shrewd, easily for $300. The newer ones (ask for the date code) have different processors and firmware (V2.5). I haven't experienced any noise or transparency issues like the early ones, although one of the three had to go back for warranty service because the display went out after a few hours. Dave, please consider yourself invited. If you're ever up this way please plan some extra time and stop over! The same goes for the rest of you. And don't forget the room is not really as big as it looks. That overall wide view had to be taken with a 24mm wide angle architectural perpspective correction lens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 The only problem is the bass. Others milage may vary, but I disagree. You've got plenty of inherently non-directional bass. If your center channel handles the mid-highs in a complementary and seamless manner with the 'horns, you don't need no stinkn' bass in the center. Dave I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one Dave. Maybe it's because I'm a bass player and more sensitive to it. But even when I recently got the subs hooked up I can easily localize where the low frequency sounds are coming from ~ more to the left or right for instance. I realize that some, or much of this is due to upper harmonics or transients (like the plucking of a string or striking a drum head). But without having a full range speaker for the center there can be a lack of coherency between the localization of the higher and lower frequencies coming from the same instrument. If the speakers are closer together this may not be much of an issue. But when you have the flanking speakers 28 feet apart and your listening location is 16 -18 feet from the speakers like it is in my room then you can definetly hear the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Dave, please consider yourself invited. If you're ever up this way please plan some extra time and stop over! You got it, boss, and believe me I thoroughly enjoy your system just reading about it and know how much pleasure you draw from it. Regards, Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one Dave. Maybe it's because I'm a bass player and more sensitive to it. As I constantly say I never question another's hearing experience. In my case and for the majority of us, however, bass is inherently non-directional unless the crossover is too high...and, granted, that is subjective to a point. Anytime I've had issues with it I changed the crossover until I cannot hear any directionality. However, I'd return the disagreement to suggest that in a 2 channel system with adequate bass one still is better with no bass in the center channel unless the speaker is precisely the same in driver complement as the others, per PWK's admonition. With no bass driver but with complementary mid/high drivers you should get the benefit of the center with no apparent "hole" in the bass. I think this is born out by my own system of using a mono source to test stereo imaging potential. When all is well, everything, including the bass, steadfastly appears to come from a non-existent center speaker. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o0O Bill O0o Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Old School center worth it? Yes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one Dave. Maybe it's because I'm a bass player and more sensitive to it. As I constantly say I never question another's hearing experience. In my case and for the majority of us, however, bass is inherently non-directional unless the crossover is too high...and, granted, that is subjective to a point. Anytime I've had issues with it I changed the crossover until I cannot hear any directionality. However, I'd return the disagreement to suggest that in a 2 channel system with adequate bass one still is better with no bass in the center channel unless the speaker is precisely the same in driver complement as the others, per PWK's admonition. With no bass driver but with complementary mid/high drivers you should get the benefit of the center with no apparent "hole" in the bass. I think this is born out by my own system of using a mono source to test stereo imaging potential. When all is well, everything, including the bass, steadfastly appears to come from a non-existent center speaker. Dave I can't disagree with that. In my setup I think the wide distance between the L,C,R speakers and the "proportionate" distance to the listening position has something to do with it. And just to point out another "variation" in the scheme of things, since I've added the subs and three BehringerDEQ2496, even though the Belle center is delayed, I'm using the EQ as a high pass filter to remove frequencies 80Hz and lower from the Belle. All four of the subs are time delayed for alignment with the flanking Khorns, but they are physically much closer to the Belle and I don't want any low frequency interference between the subs and the Belle woofer. When I finally get around to using a Jubilee/402 for the center speaker with an EV DX38 or similar I'll be able to compensate and align all the drivers individually and then I can run them full range. IMHO though, these are very small details, splitting hairs so to speak. With some program material it might make a difference, with most it probably won't. All I can say is right now things sound pretty damn good. Last night I listened to Yo Yo Ma's "Solo" SACD. I was quite surprised at how much low frequency information was going to the subs with just a cello. Everything was rock solid and right where is should be. It was like the speakers were just sitting there in the room like a piece of furniture, doing nothing. The sound was completely unto itself. And this was with the center speaker at the same level as the Khorns, not attenuated -3 to -6dB to reduce any precedence effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tromprof Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 I think I am going to try the center with no bass to start with. If that sounds weird I can then add the bass bin later, I was planning on building a split cornscala anyway. When I get around to it, probably next month, I will post pics and impressions. If I do build the bass bin I am thinking that the traditional 15 inch CW1526 would be overkill. Maybe something along the lines of a Heresy size 12 inch instead? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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