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Which rear surrounds - Heresy II or RS-7???


digger1978

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I currently have Lascalas, KV4 center, and Heresy II's for rears. I also have two KP115 15" industrial subs. Everything rocks but I am in the process of changing my amplfier situation to run off of one amp (HK Signature 2.1) instead of the 5 that I have now and purchasing a RSW15 sub also. My amps now are a HK Citation 22(main), (2) HK Signature PA2200 (center and rears), and (2) Crest LA1201's (subs)

I am curious if the Heresy is the best match for surrounds or if I should go to RS7 because they are

WDST and the Heresy's are not.

I just demo'd the RSW15 in my room and it was pretty impressive. My KP115's aren't powered internally I and wonder how long the amp in the RSW can take that pounding?

I appreciate all Klipsch owners feedback please. Thank you.

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digger - Does your preamp permit the use of separate rear speaker pairs for music and HT? If so, I'd go with direct radiating speakers like the Heresy for music surrounds and WDST speakers for HT surround. Best of both worlds!

Otherwise, there has been a debate going on over at http://216.37.9.58/ubb/Forum4/HTML/003569.html regarding this very subject. You might want to bring a snack and have a read Smile.gif

Also, how 'bout getting a pair of Heresy's (or using your existing Heresy's if you decide on WDST) for your front and rear center speakers? Be a nice match with the LAS.

Doug

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This message has been edited by dougdrake on 06-05-2002 at 05:39 PM

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Doug,

Thanks for the reply and that link to that lengthy but very interesting forum. I am going to buy the RS-7's and try them out with a new RSW-15 sub. They aren't that much money and I will play around with them. My dealer by me will also lend me another pair of Heresy II's to see if I like that arrangement.

I guess it really boils down to what my ears hear the best. If have just heard so many good things about WDST that I want to see if my ears can hear the difference.

I will follow up on this post in about a week after I receive everything and try it all out.

This message has been edited by digger1978 on 06-06-2002 at 11:25 AM

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Hey, digger1978, as one of the beleaguered posters in that long, interesting thread, I applaud your spirit in finding out for your ears and acoustics space just what works.

You will find people on this Forum that have used wide-dispersion speakers with Heritage and Legend speakers as mains... like SteveP or avman who have used the rare but renowned KSP-S6's for their HT coverage in relatively tight quarters.

But, for my money (and that of Q-Man, Soundog, Roadhawg, etc.), there is no sound quite like a Heritage sound and part of the price of WDST speakers is that the matching timbre you can create across the front array with Heritage speakers, cannot be duplicated in back-to-front audio sweeps.

Additionally, if you like the "live" concert sound of Klipsch, nothing does music quite like all Heritage speakers. Since PWK designed the K-Horn as the cornerstone speaker... he designed all the rest of the line to fill in as the center between K-Horns... so having tone & timbre that matches all around is a special treat.

Check it out! -HornED

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Pic6.jpg Photo update soon! -HornEd

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ed, with all due respect, you're starting in again. Smile.gif

you cannot blanket apply that rs-7 with heritage are not a good timbre match only because they are wdst. they're not as good a timbre match mainly because of the driver characteristics & incorporating design.

i agree stick w/ heritage for surrounds too, but not just for the fact that they're not wdst type speaks.

but because klipsch doesn't make an ideal timbre matched wdst to be used w/ heritage. not like they designed the C7 as an ideal match for the other legends. Wink.gif

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Boa, the reason I am continuing, as I promised that I would, is because the reflections caused by wide-dispersion speakers kill the timbre characteristics inherent in the wide-dispersion portion of the speaker... in WDST it is that portion of the sound above about 2000Hz.

When I sit in my HT with six KLF-30's and a pair of KLF-C7's, the closeness of the timbre match between the front array and the rear array adds a dimension of realism that essentially went away when I tried WDST speakers as the rear array. The question is NOT one of the closeness of a timbre match because part of the price of wide-dispersion is the richness of the front and rear arrays timbre match.

If you can borrow a pair of WDST, KSP-S6 or (shudder) dipoles for a weekend, try replacing your Cornwalls with them and you will see what I mean. Sure, you get envelopment... but one little woofer on a WDST speaker just won't provide the timbre characteristics of your Cornwalls.

Hey, Boa, I've already said that I will try some more aggressive bass management the next time around for my HT room. How about trying some wide-dispersement "heaven" on an A/B surround test with your Cornwalls. If you really like 'em, you can easily sell your Cornwalls to "upgrade" ( Wink.gif ) to wide-dispersion.

But, no way am I going to compromise the overall timbre of my Music System (K-Horns, Belle, Cornwalls & Academy)... for timbre is the essential character that makes Heritage speakers so special to my ear.

No, my friend, this is a real issue that newbies need to know more about by their own experimentation, IMHO. And, in this case, digger1978 was asking for advice on testing out the Heritage monopole vs. Reference WDST... and found that long "round and round" thread to be interesting. Since his particular question was not well answered on that thread, I tried to be accommodating. -HornED

PS: If I am to be an honest contributor to this Forum, I must live by the results of my actual A/B comparisons using monopoles and WDST and not be dissuaded because my conclusions may not be popular with some folks. I am not trying for a popularity contest, I am trying to share my observations and considered opinions with others on this Forum so that we may all be the wiser for it... whatever it happens to be at the moment. -H.E.

This message has been edited by HornEd on 06-06-2002 at 05:03 PM

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no thanks i'm not proposing wdst for myself, Smile.gif though if i had something w/ a/b surround capabilities like a denon i might consider throwing some S6 on top of the cornwalls. seriously.

sure the lack of timbre match from the S6 wasn't more because they don't have ideally matched drivers for legends? just like the rs-7 don't for heritage. Wink.gif

you do have me sold on the big center, especially since

i have an adjustable crossover in the processor. Wink.gif if i only had the room i'd pay somebody to do a klf-30hec for me. Smile.gif

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Hey guys (Horned and Boa)...give me a few days and I will give you my opinion on my findings. I am not a "true" audiophile, but I do know enough and I like good equipment. Bottomline~~~~I will go with the surrounds and sub that sounds best to my ear.

I have no disrespect for Horned or Boa. I do thank them for their advice and I will be testing everything that my dealer can provide me.

I will be testing first:

Mains - Lascala

Center - KV 4

Rears - Heresy II

Sub - RSW 15

Second:

Mains - Heresy II

Center - KV 4

Rears - RS 7

Sub - RSW 15

Third:

Mains, center and rears - All Heresy II

Sub - RSW 15

Fourth:

Mains - Lascala

Center - Heresy II

Rears - Heresy II

Sub - RSW 15

Fifth:

Mains - Lascala

Center - Heresy II

Rears - RS 7

Sub - RSW 15

After these five tests I will be sure I know what I want. It will take me a few days of listening to both music (Mozart to Metallica) and numerous movies to find what my ear desires. Until then, you may not hear from me for a few days until I give my feedback on my decision. I will be honest and give reasons for my choices.

Until then.....adios!!!

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You say timbre matching IS important,then you say timbre matching is NOT important.

There were no timbre matching surround speakers made by Klipsch to work with Legends. A RS-7 used with a Legend would be a timbre mismatch.

WDST speakers, again , are not designed to rely on relection for diffusion. Walls or boundries will cause reflections from any speaker no matter the type speaker. Ever hear an echo echo echo?

WDST speakers will not produce the direct sound of a monopole. The WDST speaker will sound more diffuse. Perhaps this is where the confusion lies.

My WDST speakers, which are timbre matched to my other speakers, provide a perfect timbre match. I recommend them highly for HT use, just as Klipsch does. JMO

Keith

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Hey, digger1978, all I could ask of anyone is to make up their minds with a reasonable test in their own listening environment... and that is exactly what you are doing... using your head BEFORE you use your ears. Clearly, different people derive different auditory satisfaction at different points in their lives. I don't know of anything you could have done to have my views for your best interest respected more than what you have already arranged.

Now, as for others that may have read or participated in this thread. I have believed in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny... but I have NEVER believed a sales pitch over acoustics and psychoacoustics industry leaders. To think that someone would believe that a 180° dispersion angle would make a line of sight listener perceive a diffuse sound without a reflection is not aware of how ears differentiate between difuse and localized sounds.

Now, a lot of people prefer WDST surrounds... and that is great... but to say that WDST speakers can be timbre matched with LaScalas to the degree that a sound pan can prove LaScalas can be timbre matched with a Heresey II's is just nonsense. Wide dispersion speakers fit in because they erode the timbre characteristic with their envelopment.

Choosing one speaker over another is based on your immediate preference is fine with me... just don't get caught up in myths and superstition.

To me, timbre is a critical part of matching speakers for maximum music and HT entertainment. I'll take timbre matching any day over a marginal improvement in diffuse sound. The reason? Properly aligning a minimum of three monopole speakers in the rear array will provide accurate localized sound and will provide enough ambience that your head will take care of the rest. Of course, I use a receiver that turns 5.1 discrete sound into 6.1 with every channel having a unique sound.

The only place that timbre is less important is with wide-dispersion sound sprayers which create timbre eroding reflections. It is the differnce of setting up a system to be Cinema oriented or Performance oriented. Personally, I prefer the "live" performance that is the Klipsch hallmark. I prefer it for my eight Legend home theater and my six Heritage music system.

Acoustics and pyschoacoustics science aside, there are only three real uncertainties in life... what a jury will say, who your daughter will marry... and who will give up musical and localized sound accuracy for a matched front with a fuzzy rear. -HornED

This message has been edited by HornEd on 06-08-2002 at 06:42 PM

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I bet he picks option 4 or 5 depending on how much he prefers music or HT. I take Heresies all day long in this scenario.

Hey Keith,

I got a bet for you too. Take your S6 and a KSP300 and put them in the backyard where there is nothing to reflect off. Play some music through your KSP300 and walk perpendicular to it at about 10 ft. Then repeat the test with your S6. I bet, even with the complete absence of reflections, you notice a much larger sweetspot with the S6.

Later. Look forward to your results and digger's decision.

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HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere

Audio - Heresy, KG4

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Your great offense is well documented... as you pounce at every opportunity... even on posts where you have not been named... but, of course, that is understandable given the lack of scientific defense available for some opinions.

My role is to give newbies, lurkers and Forum friends the opportunity to think beyond self-serving, sales oriented, company literature on issues that are well documented in acoustics and psychoacoustics research papers.

Hmmm, perhaps I can consult KAiN about building a crimson and white Dubai Desert Shrine to "My Klipsch Sprayer Right or Wrong" with a miniature wild-eyed rider atop a heroic-sized KSP-S6 shielding his eyes from the desert sun with a RollTide bumper sticker... but who could we get to pose for the sculptor?

Double hmmm... I hope the statue concept is filed under "good natured ribbing" because recent lines drawn in the Forum sand should lay fallow 'lest they become a new gladiatorial arena.

Friends, Romans and KlipschForumMen (& women), lend me your Ear(s)... I come NOT to bury Keith... but to PRAISE him for all the help he has been to finding great buys and worthy links on these troubled threads. Some say, when his ardent supporter picked Heresys over WDST (as above) that our (would be) acoustics emperor was heard to mutter, "Et tu Crash, ay!"

All fun and games aside, talktoKeith, while you may take "great offense" from my postings bear in mind that you have no difficulty with posting your "opinions" after I have posted mine. I certainly don't take personal offense to such tactics but they can be annoying... so I understand some of your frustration from an up close and personal perspective of being a recipient. I admire your Klipsch loyalty... but not when it seems that "rhetoric over reason" becomes a saving grace. There is far too much of that already in this industry.

Myth unchallenged breeds implied authority that may undermine community standards. I do not object to you personally or doubt your sincerity... it just seems that from time-to-time you "myth" the point. 'Tis my opinion regarding the presumed myth that I speak to... and despite my frustration leaking a bit here and there... I truly mean no malice to any man, woman, or avatar.

I participate on this Forum as an invited guest... and will respectfully depart if that is the wish of those who invited me. I try to bring a little levity, hard earned insight and honest acoustic reflections to this Forum. Sometimes I write with the courage of my convictions... only to find that my convictions have been wrong... thanks to the counsel of BobG and other Forum sages. My "opinions" are considered opinions... and the book is always open for reconsideration.

For me, it is always "open season" to shoot down the "disinformation" message... rather than shooting the messenger. Upon review, as stated earlier, I have found a few shots that may have left "flesh wounds" on a few avatars ... and that may well be "my bad" in the heat of rapid-fire dialogue... but not "my intent" as is clearly delineated in the overall helpfulness my posts seem to have given people.

I have no "sacred cows" among the Klipsch speakers heard... but I do have a great admiration for the late PWK as a loudspeaker designer and as a man whose opinions tended always to be considered opinions... and I admire Fred Klipsch for navigating the Klipsch company through choppy waters to fiscal success. The Klipsch company saga from one room tinkering shed to international audio provider is filled with far more intrigue, drama, crises, turmoil, failure and success than any DVD that's played in my HT. But, most of that is probably best left unsaid... like the awkwardness on every side of a Forum banning issue.

Kevin we each bring value to this board... it matters not who brings more... just that we bring our honest reflections and occasional whimsy... and let each member, minion or lurker decide the "fare" and "fowl" for their own audio feast. Bon appetite! -HornED

This message has been edited by HornEd on 06-08-2002 at 10:40 AM

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Keith,

I don't believe I have ever read where you write a WDST speaker is a better match as surrounds for either Legends or Heritage speakers.

I believe you would likely agree in the absence of a matched surround, the best choice is another speaker of the same design or as close a match as possible.

In fact, I believe that is what your posts including the one above have stated - or perhaps it is me that misreads, misquotes, and misconstrues your posts and position.

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HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere

Audio - Heresy, KG4

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To Whom It May Concern:

Placing a speaker in a "free field" environment (e.g., an anechoic chamber or an open field) is a great way to learn about its characteristics as an air-mover but does equate with its performance as part of a system in a room. In fact, few speakers sound very good in an anechoic chamber... as PWK cited in his biography.

Wide dispersion speakers tend to be shallow cone monopole speakers ganged to cover a wider area. Covering a wider area does not make them inherently better speakers or all cone speakers would be built that way. It also does not make them "diffuse" for they are simply direct speakers until reflections render their sound striking the ear as diffuse.

Here's a reference that states it fairly simply...

Diffuse sound = "Sound that is completely random in phase; sound which appears to have no single source or direction."

Direct sound = "The sound that arrives at the reception point directly (no reflections). Sound lacking in any reverberation."

These Pro Audio Dictionary definitions may be found at: http://www.dpamicrophones.com/index.htm

Sound in a free field environment is always directional... put a single WDST or monopole speaker in an open field, walk ten feet in any direction... and your ears will tell you what direction the sound is coming from. It is only when the sound is coming from so many directions that the brain cannot pick one over the others that sounds become "diffuse."

The goal of "diffuse" sound in audio environments is to recreate, after a fashion, the ambient (background) sounds of a movie locale or a concert environment. The problem is that even if you record ambient sound at a location accurately (most DVD "ambient" sounds are created by mixing engineers with reverb, etc.) the problem is that "ambient" sound again becomes directional by virtue of it coming from a loudspeaker in a given location.

The solution... wider-dispersion multiple monopoles to create more reflections... or adding more conventional monopoles to achieve a similar effect with less corruption of sounds intended to be localized by the mixer.

In the ProLogic era, mixers did not have much of a choice, the "surround" channel was monaural and restricted in frequency range. So, localized sound went to the mains and background sounds were sprayed around the room from dipoles (in the "THX Approved" approach to creating ambience). There are thousands of bygone movies and programs from this era that benefit from wide-dispersion speakers... and that, alone, may be reason enough to buy them.

Today, mixers are increasingly pushing the envelope of their art to take fuller advantage of all the full-range discrete channels to locations about the listening environment. The amount to which this freedom is exercised is more a reflection of the installed base of equipment capable of accurately rendering full-range localized sound and collectively apportioned and distributed background sounds through multiple monopole speakers.

Clearly, there is a distinct sound quality difference between a well-designed main monopole and a well-designed wide-dispersion monopole. Main monopoles have distinctive timbre characteristics that give distinct voices to musical instrument notes and human utterances. Multiple reflections and random phase perceptions degrade timbre... and help offset the effect of acoustics challenged rooms.

Whatever our speaker choices, our audio experience is filled with compromises from the first waveform hitting a microphone to the last waveform hitting our ear drums... and then we have all the psychoacoustics to consider.

Of course, not every body wants to wade into soundwaves that deeply... and that's okay. But, it should not be an excuse to take pot shots at those of us who choose to swim in the deep end of our knowledge pool. We have enough problems with the Great White Sharks of our own ignorance without having to deal with the random spears of casual snorkelers.

Hey, but if your up to it, dive on in... the Klipsch waters are fine... and your fellow deep divers are always willing to share. -HornED

PS: Crash, a short search on talktoKeith would have made you aware of his many recommendations of using KSP-S6's, RS-3's or RS-7's with Legends on 12/07/01, 03/22/02, 03/24/02, 04/09/02, 04/25/02... and you, Crash, joined him in recommending KSP-S6's with Legends on 04/25/02.

In fact, Keith also posted a suggestion that if I would try WDST with my eight Legends HT that I would change my mind and write in favor of the combo. I tried it and it seemed to smother the clarity and timbre of my rear three KLF-30 array. At least I tried. -H.E.

This message has been edited by HornEd on 06-08-2002 at 07:52 PM

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maybe as a way to avoid confrontation it would be best to state opinion without reference or regard to others ownership or personal opinion. Wink.gif

& has BobG ever chimed in here. i'd be interested in hearing klipsch's philosophy & facts. e.g.,

-do wdst cause a timbre mismatch by this design?

-do the drivers, electronics & design of the speaker moot the issue of wdst vs monopole as far as timbre matching?

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Friend Boa, Klipsch provides plenty of opportunity for its customers to buy different speakers. Whether a purchaser's preference is toward the ambient-heavy Cinema persuasion... or the closer timbre matching in a Performance oriented system. There is no wrong answer... but there is also no one right answer. It is strictly a different strokes for different folks set of choices.

Confrontation occurs when someone presumes that identical monopoles cannot provide adequate Cinema ambience with superb Performance to someone else's ears... or that a monopole/wide-dispersion mix and match cannot provide adequate tonal Performance and superb Cinema envelopment to someone else's ears.

Clearly, if WDST technology was a blow-away high-end winner... there would have been a Heritage version long before now. WDST is a role-player that does very well in specific acoustics situations... like delivering more ambience from the anemic offerings encoded in ProLogic or marginally improved 5.1 mixes.

Klipsch delivers quality sound to its consumers whatever their persuasion... WDST is no "magic pill" to most Performance oriented music lovers... and six identical mains is not what Cinema fans look for in affordable ambience. It is all a matter of choices upon choices... and a learning curve after each choice.

cwm40.gif And Klipsch gives us plenty of opportunity to enjoy it our way... cwm35.gifcwm39.gifcwm17.gifcwm4.gifcwm20.gifcwm16.gifhowever convoluted that may be! -HornED

This message has been edited by HornEd on 06-08-2002 at 04:33 PM

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ED, I was just kidding there in that second sentence. Did you miss the smiley face?

I was serious when I typed the first sentence. And you proved that sentence correct with your follow-up reply.

It was easy early on to see that it would be a waste of my precious time to quote any opinion of authority because you are the self-appointed authority where HT is involved. Evidently Crash has much more time than I have and I appreciate him taking his time and making a noble attempt at sharing his earpinion.

You are absolutely correct in your interpretation of my post Crash, and I appreciate you simplifying my meaning if I stated said opinion in too scientifical of terms for some here to interpret. Also thanks Crash for not twisting,contorting,changing or otherwise ***-kissing my opinion as some here have done (ED).

Also Crash, as I have stated here before, your WDST surrounds have the exact drivers that your front KSP's have. Your front speakers cross from the low end(powered sub) at 80Hz. So if you set your surrounds small with a crossover at 80HZ there should be perfect timbre matching front to rear. Wonder if the engineers at Klipsch ever thought of that?

boa wisely said:

"maybe as a way to avoid confrontation it would be best to state opinion without reference or regard to others ownership or personal opinion."

Were you serious boa? I noted a smiley there. Good idea though. It seems that most normal people with just a smidgen of tact would have thought of that too!

Anyway, gotta go to the quarry and bust some rocks. They're a lot softer than some peoples hEaD, if you get my drift!

Love and kisses,

Keith

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Whew, sure glad I don't have the call on whose leading the "Smidgen of Tact" Hit Parade! Smash.gif

Oh, no. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .cwm3.gif bustEd!

This message has been edited by HornEd on 06-08-2002 at 04:49 PM

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keith, yes serious. just put the smiley in there to mean i wasn't really po'd or anything. i think i'm addicted to smilies. cwm19.gif

sorry if this has been covered but i haven't had the time to read all the monopole vs wdst posts. cwm4.gif

but have read that there is always some timbre mismatch

from any speakers in dif locations, even identical monopoles. thx does this timbre matching to somewhat correct for that. or attempts to - i don't notice much dif w/ it. but say identical monopole fronts & surrounds will have some timbre dif from the room effects & psycho factors of speaks in dif locations relative to the ears.

anyway, i don't have room to move my speaks or get more

so i'm copacetic on it all. think i'll go crank up sabbath - paranoid. cwm32.gif

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