Quiet_Hollow Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 Does this meter directly measure ESR, or does it just infer it from dissipation factor? I am not aware of any meter that can directly read ESR. It is a derived parameter that respresents a "lumped sum" of real losses. If a meter is displaying an ESR value, it is because it is calculating it internally from voltage and current measurements...some more elegantly than others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JL Sargent Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Below is a thread from when I bought the meter 2 years ago. (which is actually the B version). You can see I'm performing ESR / Q measurements on the dual readout at the same time. http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/133826.aspx?PageIndex=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted August 3, 2012 Author Share Posted August 3, 2012 (edited) Here are the results from a 1990 AL-3 network tested in the lab with a very expensive Fluke PM6304 RCL bench meter. This time the components were measured discretely, not in-place. For comparison, I also brought along a 28 year-old HIE network to see how that has held up after all these years. All the caps were consistently <0.100 Ohm ESR in their intended pass band. Note how the 2uF 250V caps from the older Heresy Industrial spec a little better than the 2uF 180V from the La Scala due to the higher voltage rating. Measuring ESR below the intended passband frequency is a moot point because that will yield higher (read "conservative") numbers, but I posted them for comparative purposes. In a filter network, caps block lower frequencies so that is to be expected. Quality factor values measured at 1 kHz are also included for anyone interested. I crosschecked the measured value of the 68uF cap a third time with my Fluke 179 and read 66.1 uF and 66.4 uF respectively. Both handheld meters agreed, and both the ESR values were within ear-shot. Make of it what you will for a couple of parallel electrolytics wired in shunt. Note that the Ana Tek Blue ESR meter is off, but the caps still measured well. Compare the ESR of the 22 year-old 13uF poly film to the new PIO that JL Sargent measured here. [:|] Once again, both meters tell me all of these components are very good and need not be senselessly replaced simply because they are "old". There's nothing wrong at all with these devices. The stock poly film caps do not suffer the same age-related wear as the PIO caps. *edit* Fixed broken link Stock_Good.pdf Stock_Good.pdf Stock_Good.pdf Edited November 8, 2013 by Quiet_Hollow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted August 3, 2012 Author Share Posted August 3, 2012 Tabulated data: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted August 3, 2012 Author Share Posted August 3, 2012 The stock AL-3 in the lab before disconnecting wires: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted August 3, 2012 Author Share Posted August 3, 2012 The stock HIE before doing the same: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted August 3, 2012 Author Share Posted August 3, 2012 The AL-3 Aerovox 13uF polyfilm on the bench meter @ 2 kHz: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted August 3, 2012 Author Share Posted August 3, 2012 One of the AL-3 2uF radial-wound MPF's on the Blue ESR meter: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted August 3, 2012 Author Share Posted August 3, 2012 ...and finally, one of the 2uF radial-wound MPF's from the HIE on the bench meter @ 1 kHz: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 "The stock poly film caps do not suffer the same age-related..." That is an interesting statement. Have you tested any new poly film caps yet to prove that? Bob Crites Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted August 3, 2012 Author Share Posted August 3, 2012 Have you tested any new poly film caps yet to prove that? Does Klipsch have a factory spec for ESR? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Have you tested any new poly film caps yet to prove that? Does Klipsch have a factory spec for ESR? I don't know. PWK just said it had to be "low" and that he got in trouble once for using caps with ESR too high. But as far as new Polypropylene caps go, I think all will probably test down to a few hundredths of an ohm. I like to see caps have very low ESR when new. I think that is a good indication of the quality of materials used in the caps and how well the manufacturer was in control of the manufacturing process. Here is a picture of a new 2 uF Sonicap being tested. Bob Crites Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 do you guys have any small value polycarbonate caps you can put in parallel to those black film caps and measure the ESR ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted August 4, 2012 Author Share Posted August 4, 2012 Have you tested any new poly film caps yet to prove that? No, however many 2 uF radial-wound MPF industrial motor run caps are manufactured with a target dissipation factor of ≤ 0.1-0.3% @ 60Hz, which gets higher as frequency goes higher. My pieces make that grade, even after 20 some odd years. Klipsch does not have a factory ESR specification for crossover components. The only specification is a basic ±5% of stated capacitance. PWK just said it had to be "low" and that he got in trouble once for using caps with ESR too high. I would be interested in reading more details about this occurrence. I like to see caps have very low ESR when new. I think that is a good indication of the quality of materials used in the caps and how well the manufacturer was in control of the manufacturing process. I can certainly appreciate the desire for excellence in quality, but I also can appreciate that it is entirely your imposition and not the factory's. Here is a picture of a new 2 uF Sonicap being tested. What does that item measure after it's been soldered at both ends at least twice, and run-in for 20 hours at 10V? Recall, we're fussing over well below 1 dB of calculated loss here. How well do they hold up? I see you've got no shortage of 2uF caps in that picture...What's the ESR @ 1 kHz of say, ten of those? I mean, if they're truly bad, their values should be scattered all over the place. do you guys have any small value polycarbonate caps you can put in parallel to those black film caps and measure the ESR ? Nothing like that here. What do you have in mind? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 "I would be interested in reading more details about this occurrence." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Well, there you go. [] Marantz Model 9 ~ the Luxman MB3045 I use are just an all-out Nth degree extension of these. Crown D-60 ~ one of my favorite little amps since 1972. I have several. And as far as "kitchen noises", well, that's why I built my "mini-auditorium". I haven't changed any caps yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 "I would be interested in reading more details about this occurrence." Good letter Bob. PWK was using SS in his home gear as of 1984. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted August 4, 2012 Author Share Posted August 4, 2012 Good letter Bob. +2 [Y] Thank you for posting that; always insightful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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