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Small Room Selections


craigtone

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OK, I am parting with my RF-7's because we moved and my listening room shrunk by more than 2x! Attached is a drawing of the room for reference. I am looking for something with the range of the RF-7's and the speed to play modern metal, electronic, but also the finesse to handle orchestral, female jazz club vocals, etc.

I am auditioning some KP-201's this weekend to see if Heresy's will fit the bill. I am also considering RB-81's but they tend too bright on my system so I'd have to replace the crossover caps. I recently saw some KG 3.5's on Craigslist locally and they seem like a great fit as well.

I am using a modified Dynaco ST-70, so looking for something ~94+ efficiency. The picture below shows the SW-8 I am currently running with my Snell Type K's, but looking to not use the sub.

What do the experts recommend? Any other discontinued models I should be keeping an eye out for?

post-26533-13819799600046_thumb.jpg

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If you are looking to not use a sub the Heresy's don't go very low and the KG 3.5's don't pack too much punch. Maybe Forte I OR II's or Quartets, KG 4's, 4.2,4.5 or 5.2 or 5.5 ........but why get rid of RF-7's and look at a pair of KG's, thats just not right man. I know your room has shrunk but are they really way to big? If your not going to use a sub I personally would not get something with less than a 10 inch woofer unless it has two or more 8's. And if you are using them mainly for music I would go with the Forte 1 or 2 or Quartet... IMO. But again the difference in depth between the RF-7's and KG 3.5's is only 5 inches.....I say keep your RF-7's if you really like them.

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OK, I am parting with my RF-7's because we moved and my listening room shrunk by more than 2x!

See http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/163058/1737061.aspx#1737061

The comment about large speakers is that you would like to keep the midrange horn's output off the walls in small rooms, and bigger horns (like the K-400/401, related Heritage line horns, and the K-402 horn in the Jubilee) do a better job at that than other Klipsch speakers. That means that Heresies would probably be a good choice.

However, note that you'll probably need to put down carpet on the floor in front of your speakers and perhaps some sort of diffuser or absorber on the ceiling halfway to your listening position to absorb frequencies between ~500 Hz and 2 KHz where the midrange horn loses control in the vertical axis (i.e., "collapsing polar" midrange horn).

The ability of a horn to control its output (polars) at lower frequencies is related to the dimensions of the mouth of the horn in both the vertical and horizontal axes. The smaller the horn dimension, the higher the frequency at which polar pattern control is lost.

Chris

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You guys are nuts! :P

The problem with the RF-7's is the rear port. Any closer than ~18" to the back wall and the bass gets muddied. At that distance, the horns overpower the woofers and the listening position is very narrow.

I did listen to some Heresy's II's this weekend and they sounded good, but NO bottom end! The owner then told me about the Tangent's which there is a pair local on Craigslist. He said they were notorious for bad cabinets but I have a 3' deep stack of 11-ply 3/4" baltic birch in my garage! Of course, I am considering building my own Klipsch clones anyway. Heresy high and mid horns with Bob Crites drivers, K-28 woofer with a properly sized box and a DIY oil cap crossover.

Anyone have the KG 4.2's ... how is the bottom end on them? Of course after hearing the dual horns of the Heresy, it will be hard to part from that topology!

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I did listen to some Heresy's II's this weekend and they sounded good, but NO bottom end!

See http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/storage/5/1358189/Corner%20Speaker%20Placement%20excerpts%20PWK.pdf

Remember that the Heresy was developed to be the center speaker between two Khorns. Placing it in a corner (on the floor - NOT on a stand) will significantly improve its lf response, and tilting it back slightly, like the Heresy risers available from Klipsch, will improve imaging performance and hf coverage.

The problem with the RF-7's is the rear port. Any closer than ~18" to the back wall and the bass gets muddied.

The corner is a good place to achieve your effective 18" of front-wall offset without actually having to space them out 18" from the front wall.

Of course after hearing the dual horns of the Heresy, it will be hard to part from that topology!

That is the point of recommending the Heresy: it effectively uses the same midrange and tweeter drivers and horns as the Khorn, La Scala, Belle, and Cornwall (albeit in a slightly shorter midrange horn like the Belle).

You guys are nuts! :P

You might want to qualify this a bit more: I'm not sure what it is to which you are objecting.

Chris

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RF 7's can be 9-12 in off the front wall with good room correction software. I have pulled my 7's out from the wall 9 in. to 2 ft and the sound is identical after running room correction. The 7's deliver nice tight, well controlled bass. Maybe all you need is different room correction software and you can keep the 7's?

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Anyone have the KG 4.2's ... how is the bottom end on them?

I got a pair in january. The bottom end is pretty good in small rooms. Nothing too spectacular, but they are little brawlers those speakers. They can work hard for you without breaking a sweat. They can play d@mn loud and clear with a nice punch. They dig quite deep, not wall shaking, but a nice balance with the highs. You don't miss much with these speakers. If there is thunder you will hear it, just not feel it in your chest as much as you want. Thats the problem with these speakers. For me, they gave me everything I wanted...just not enough of it. I found myself turning them up a lot of the time to get more bass and get deeper inside the music. They just got louder, not more bass, just louder. With my Forte's when you turn those up, they just get bigger!! and reveal more inside the music.
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I had Cornwalls in a room 10x11' though they did sound good when I turned it up it was so in my face I couldnt focus on the detail. I then went to the Forte 1 it sounded good but once again somethinb about the bass that seemed boomy, I dont know if that is the correct way to say what I herd but thats how it sounded. I know have Heresy 1 with the riser tucked into the corner powered by a tube pre amp, ss power amp. I dont know what people are talking about when they say Heresies are lacking bass, I know its not kick in the chest bass. But I think it sounds pretty darn good. Then again I guess I never had my khorns in there as well. Dont forget Crites offers that cs1.5 ported like Heresy clone that is like a Hersey on roids, I think if I ever felt I needed more bass I would give it a try.

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I had Cornwalls in a room 10x11' though they did sound good when I turned it up it was so in my face I couldnt focus on the detail.

Have you tried to add some acoustic diffusion or absorption around your speakers, especially on the floor and ceiling halfway to your listening spot? The midrange horn in a CW spills a lot of energy in the vertical dimension between about 1800 Hz and 500 Hz, that is, down to the crossover frequency to the bass bin. Controlling this excess energy will increase detail and listenability dramatically and you can turn it up louder.

Just my $0.02

Chris

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...then told me about the Tangent's which there is a pair local on Craigslist.

Only the Tangent 400 had the same drivers as the Heresy IIs. If the price is good, I would pick them up and then make new/solid cabs for the components. This will get you bass and get the mid and tweeter more to ear level.

I have a set of HIIs that I will someday do this to. A friend of mine picked up a pair of tangents and they sound great!

Bruce

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... I dont know what people are talking about when they say Heresies are lacking bass, I know its not kick in the chest bass. But I think it sounds pretty darn good...

+1 [Y]

I have often thought this exact same thing ! I had a sub with my Heresy IIIs for a few months and went to turn it off only to find I had already turned it off. I listen to just about anything and everything on those and pulled the sub out for lack of use.

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I had Cornwalls in a room 10x11' though they did sound good when I turned it up it was so in my face I couldnt focus on the detail.

Have you tried to add some acoustic diffusion or absorption around your speakers, especially on the floor and ceiling halfway to your listening spot? The midrange horn in a CW spills a lot of energy in the vertical dimension between about 1800 Hz and 500 Hz, that is, down to the crossover frequency to the bass bin. Controlling this excess energy will increase detail and listenability dramatically and you can turn it up louder.

Just my $0.02

Chris

I will give this a try, I actually have been working on building a couple. Thanks for the input.

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Also note that, depending on where you put your speakers in-room, a little acoustic material in the other places will really help stereo imaging, timbre, and definition.

For instance: if your CWs are within a couple of feet of the side walls or front wall, then try one 2x2 acoustic absorption pad on each wall next to the midrange horn mouths. Very heavy tapestry or curtain material next to the speakers on these walls will achieve the same goal.

If you sit within 3 feet of the back wall, then try adding some acoustic absorption pads/panels behind and on each side behind your head. It will help a great deal on imaging, detail, and the feeling of spaciousness.

If you sit in a high-backed chair that is covered with hard material or leather-like material, try throwing something soft over the head rest next to your ears: you'll be amazed at how much this can clear up imaging and detail. Details of the effects of this are also mentioned on Ethan Winer's site.

If you've got flat coffee tables or furniture between you and your speakers, and any of that is made of hard wood, metal or glass, then try putting a relatively thick table cloth over the top(s), and perhaps move any other acoustically reflective furniture out of the way between you and your speakers.

While all this sounds like it changes the decor, in reality these techniques can be tastefully completed without significantly upsetting the room's WAF, and at reasonable cost--almost nothing when you think about your outlay on your equipment. Just the willingness to try it is needed.

Chris

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Here u go http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=Room+Setup...Also consider using room diffusers they are the complete room acoustic package.

Just wanted to note that what I was saying (above) and what the linked article is saying are not coincident. Note that the method proposed in the link would have you pulling your speakers out of the corners. PWK suggested that you leave them in the corners in order to reduce bass modulation disortion by 15-20 dB and significantly extending their lf performance and response smoothness over placing them in the middle of a room. I've found that a little absorption material close to the midrange horns will improve listenability of speakers in corners (IMHO)--dramatically. PWK was pretty silent on this subject, but Roy D. is a bit more verbose about the effects of room boundaries on midrange performance.

I'd recommend trying both methods and listen for an hour or two using your best listening disks with significant lf content. Listen for lf disortion and imaging performance. Then I'd recommend making the trade that suits you.

Chris

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