Behringer DCX2496

[artto]

Has anyone here used the Behringer DCX2496 for the following application?

What I'm *thinking* of doing is to tri-amp my Khorns and Belle center.

The scenario is as follows:

McIntosh MC7205, three channels would go to the bass sections of the Khorns and Belle. My three Luxman MB3045 P/P triodes would power the midrange of each, and a trio of Wright Sound Lab 2A3 would power the tweeters.

While I'm at it, using the DCX2496 for crossovers, I also want to time align the individual drivers of each system.

Since I already have three Behringer DEQ2496 (one for the subwoofers, one for the center speaker and one for the L+R Khorns), I'm wondering if I can use a digital connection between the two DEQ2496 and two DCX2496 to avoid a stage of AD/DA conversion as well as avoiding adding more analog cables.

I've also been looking at the Electro-Voice DX46 and NetMax N8000. I like the easy PC interface ablitiy. It looks like the Behringer DCX2496 also has this capability?

All this DSP stuff is relatively new to me and I guess the finally went on. It occured to me that I already have all the "ideal" amplifiers for tri-amplification and time aligning all the drivers in the existing setup first may yield the most improvement before moving over to K402 and or Jubilee, especially since the room acoustics are already optimized for the current speakers.

[PrestonTom]

If I am understanding your question correctly, let me take a stab.

1. The DCX has time alignment and the DEQ does not (IIRC).

2. You can take the digital out of the DEQ and feed the DCX, no problem.

3. The DCX can be controlled by a PC, and the DEQ can be controlled by a PC. However, the catch is that one interfaces via a MIDI and the other interfaces via a serial connection. A single program can not run both. This may or may not be an issue for you.

4. The analog signals from these are at least 10 dB higher then consumer equipment. This can be dealt with, but you need to be aware of it when you design this.

5. The trickiest part is gain control. Where and how are you going to put your 6 channel volume knob?

[artto]

Thnx Tom

1. I currently use the delay on one DEQ2496 to time align the Belle center with the Khorns. So I guess the time alignment you are referring to for each individual driver in the crossover for each speaker system. That's Ok as I understand it.

2. So I can take what I have, the McIntosh preamp, with L+C+R outputs, L+R going analog to one DEQ2496 in stereo for "house curve" EQ (if I want it or bypass), and digitally connect this unit to one DCX2496 for stereo crossover control of the L+R Khorns, and individually delay the signal to the midrange and tweeters, then output analog to the appropriate power amplifier? And do the same with the Belle center?

3. I don't think I'll need any of the DEQ2496 controlled by the PC. I'm just wondering about the DCX2496 as I change drivers (like a TAD 2001) or move over to K402. I think the PC interface would make things a lot easier.

4. Isn't there some kind of +10dB/-4dB consumer/pro audio switch on these? I believe there is one on the DEQ2496.

5. What's a 6 channel volume knob? LOL. If it's on the front panel of the DCX2496 I guess it will be where the DEQ2496 are, in the power amp rack.

[6l6gc]

Yes, I have a 4 way ( 3 way Khorn and Danley SUB)

The setup is as purely digital as possible

player (A PC at 96Khz\24bit ) optic SPDIF into DEQ2496 (RC + EQ to taste + at night time: compression for low level listening)

then an XLR Y cable from the digital out into 2 DCX2496 for crossover and time alignment,

use a high quality and short as possible cable, (Had crackling problems with others).

I started out wanting SS Character for the bass, and tubes for the mids and highs, but ended up

fully SS, as I couldn't meld the different sound characteristics to work together,

it might have been a wave phasing problem between the tube amps vs the SS, or a psychoacoustics thing I don't know.

Once I implemented the Lecleche crossover formula http://freerider.dyndns.org/anlage/LeCleach.htm

everything exceeded my wildest expectations. and also opened up a whole world of experimenting

because you are free to dial in many other horn and driver combinations, I also did a 2 way crossing the khorn bass

at 500hz, but the 3 way sounded better to me.

[Quiet_Hollow]

Has anyone here used the Behringer DCX2496 for the following application?

Yes, I've heard of this practice. It's the defacto method for setting up a pro-sound rig.

Since I already have three Behringer DEQ2496 (one for the subwoofers, one for the center speaker and one for the L+R Khorns), I'm wondering if I can use a digital connection between the two DEQ2496 and two DCX2496 to avoid a stage of AD/DA conversion as well as avoiding adding more analog cables.

Certainly. You can use an AES/EBU cable between the two units.

I've also been looking at the Electro-Voice DX46 and NetMax N8000. I like the easy PC interface ablitiy. It looks like the Behringer DCX2496 also has this capability?

With where your system is heading, and keeping your goals in mind, I'd lean more towards the DEQX HPD-4, Trinnov MC, or at a minimum the DBX 4800.

[artto]

] With where your system is heading, and keeping your goals in mind, I'd lean more towards the DEQX HPD-4, Trinnov MC, or at a minimum the DBX 4800.

Thanks Tom (QH). I took a look at the DEQX HPD-4 and it looks like for my system I'm going to require two of those in order to to have 9 outputs (3 per speaker).

The other issue is the "audiophile" cost is no object price tag. A pair of these will set me back $10K for something that is most likely to be "obsolete" in a few years and worth basically nothing. The Behringer's, I'm already half-way there and it's "only" another $600-$700. Not much depreciation no matter how you look at it.

And then of course there's all the "automatic" stuff on the HPD-4. I'm at the mercy of the person who wrote the algorithm and I have no idea how competent this person is. As I'm sure you know, I'm not a big fan of auto "room correction" as they say, because in my book there is no such thing. And even then, to accomplish that, there's even more to buy from them.

They don't have any dealers nearby and even if they did I doubt they would be willing to install what's needed so I could give it a listen before I buy. Hell, I get to test drive a car I'm going to be dropping 10's of thousands of dollars on. Why not the same for high-end audio equipment? The proof is in the pudding. If I can't hear it, or it doesn't make $10K or $15K of difference to me, or god forbid, make things worse (to me), then why buy it?

Bottom line is for 6 to 7 hundred bucks I'm willing to try the Behringer add-on and see what it does. I can easily dump it at a small loss if it doesn't do what I expect and be no worse off for it. In fact, it's probably less expensive than upgrading or replacing three 30+ year old passive Klipsch AA crossovers.

Tom Preston: To answer your question about the six channel volume control, I guess, I'm assuming all the levels can be controlled within the DCX2496. Their lower priced analog crossovers have that ability so I can't imagine their flagship digital model can't do the same. Regardless, I've got a tech support question into Behringer regarding all that good stuff.

[Quiet_Hollow]

They don't have any dealers nearby and even if they did I doubt they would be willing to install what's needed so I could give it a listen before I buy. Hell, I get to test drive a car I'm going to be dropping 10's of thousands of dollars on. Why not the same for high-end audio equipment? The proof is in the pudding. If I can't hear it, or it doesn't make $10K or $15K of difference to me, or god forbid, make things worse (to me), then why buy it?

Excellent point!

[PrestonTom]

Artto: What are you going to use as a master control for the volume?

[artto]

Most of the time I'll just use the McIntosh MX130 peamp/control center as I do now. It has L+C+R RCA outputs, RCA sub out and L+R XLR out. Right now it's feeding the signal to the three DEQ2496. Two go to the McIntosh MC7205 (one L+R and one Center) and one to the quad of subs. I have a RCA to "Y" XLR from the sub output to the two analog XLR inputs on the third DEQ2496 that goes to the subs. If I want to get fancy with the turntables I'll just insert the ARC SP-6 as a phono section.

About the only limitation I see with this setup is that I have to forego using the SACD player as a direct input source the power amps. It's a trade-off but the Sony SCD-XA5500ES doesn't have any volume control anyway. That kind of setup is really only any good if I'm running one set of amplifiers and using passive crossovers in the speakers. And quite frankly I'm getting tired of switching things around like I used to. I'd rather just tweak out the system to the next level as it should be and do what's most important and listen to the music!

I've always wanted to bi or tri-amp the Khorns but I never liked the analog electronic crossovers that much ~ too many additional connections, additional component noise, loss of resolution, etc. Now with all this DSP stuff it looks like it's a piece of cake and I can control it all from a PC. I usually have a PC in the room now most of the time as a music server, mostly for my own hi-res recordings, and eventually as I migrate over to hi-res FLAC files. As we all know, the software side of the business as we know it is a dying animal. I just keep the MX130 as a control center because it has 5 channel THX capability and built-in AM/FM tuner (saving rack space) and I have so many traditional analog sources to interconnect.

[PrestonTom]

If I understand, then you are feeding analog signals from the McIntosh to the DEQs. So there is a A to D conversion?

[artto]

If I understand, then you are feeding analog signals from the McIntosh to the DEQs. So there is a A to D conversion?

Yes, analog signals feeding the DEQ from the McIntosh.

A to D conversion? I guess so [*-)]

Behringer DEQ2496 "Product Features" ~~~~~

*Ultra-high resolution 24-bit/96KHz mastering processor featuring 32/40-bit floating-point DSP technology*

*Audiophile 24-bit/96KHz A/D and D/A converters offering 113dB of dynamic range*

*Balanced inputs and servo-balanced outputs with gold-plated XLR connectors, stereo aux output, AES/EBU and S/PDIF inputs and outputs (XLR and optical)*

[sunnysal]

artto, have you considered the DEQX for this application? I prefer the idea of hifi consumer units over adapting connectors, etc. for pro units if price is not a hurdle. there are other hi fi consumer units out there besides DEQX let me know if you want to know more about them. I sold mine when I went back from triamping or I would offer to lend you mine. regards, tony.

others to investigate:

Lyngdorf RP-1

Sigtech AEC-1000

TACT

Holm Acoustics

even the minidsp could qualify if you like to play with PCs plug in s and little black boxes.

[artto]

artto, have you considered the DEQX for this application? I prefer the idea of hifi consumer units over adapting connectors, etc. for pro units if price is not a hurdle. there are other hi fi consumer units out there besides DEQX let me know if you want to know more about them. I sold mine when I went back from triamping or I would offer to lend you mine. regards, tony.

others to investigate:
Lyngdorf RP-1
Sigtech AEC-1000
TACT
Holm Acoustics

even the minidsp could qualify if you like to play with PCs plug in s and little black boxes.

Thnx Tony. I'll be investtigating more ~

As for adapting connectors, I'm already part way there too. I had to have some made for connections to the subwoofers and for the initial 3 Behringer DEQ2496 I bought. And since I've played the bass professionally and record live-in-concert, and master/produce CDs for a local chorale/orchestra (as well as some bands I've been in, I have more "pro" cables and various adapters than I care to think about. So that's not an issue for me. Quite frankly I'm surprised the audiophile community isn't more adapting of the pro audio connecters like balanced XLR or the old Levsinson CAMAC connectors.

BTW, long ago I used to be a valued-added resller for CADD and imaging systems. So I guess I've had my fill of playing with PCs too, LOL. Now it's time to listen to the music (I just might leave everything as it is) [H]

[PrestonTom]

If I understand, then you are feeding analog signals from the McIntosh to the DEQs. So there is a A to D conversion?

Yes, analog signals feeding the DEQ from the McIntosh.

A to D conversion? I guess so

Behringer DEQ2496 "Product Features" ~~~~~

*Ultra-high resolution 24-bit/96KHz mastering processor featuring 32/40-bit floating-point DSP technology*

*Audiophile 24-bit/96KHz A/D and D/A converters offering 113dB of dynamic range*

*Balanced inputs and servo-balanced outputs with gold-plated XLR connectors, stereo aux output, AES/EBU and S/PDIF inputs and outputs (XLR and optical)*

That's fine and many folks do it this way.

I thought there was a concern about an "extra" D to A conversion (if you are using CDs as a source). One thing to be concerned about is whether the ADC is expecting a 10 V RMS signal (pro level not consumer level). In addition to that you are further reducing this voltage (volume knob) prior to the ADC. As such you are using fewer of the bits during the ADC. This will have an effect and your noise floor.

However, in reality most folks have other complications that the raise the noise floor to a greater extent. So this may not be the end of the world. In my own set up I do it the hard way and keep the signal ditital until the final DAC at the DCX and then use a 6 channel volume knob between the DCX and the amps.

[PrestonTom]

If I understand, then you are feeding analog signals from the McIntosh to the DEQs. So there is a A to D conversion?

Yes, analog signals feeding the DEQ from the McIntosh.

A to D conversion? I guess so

Behringer DEQ2496 "Product Features" ~~~~~

*Ultra-high resolution 24-bit/96KHz mastering processor featuring 32/40-bit floating-point DSP technology*

*Audiophile 24-bit/96KHz A/D and D/A converters offering 113dB of dynamic range*

*Balanced inputs and servo-balanced outputs with gold-plated XLR connectors, stereo aux output, AES/EBU and S/PDIF inputs and outputs (XLR and optical)*

That's fine and many folks do it this way.

I thought there was a concern about an "extra" D to A conversion (if you are using CDs as a source). One thing to be concerned about is whether the ADC is expecting a 10 V RMS signal (pro level not consumer level). In addition to that you are further reducing this voltage (volume knob) prior to the ADC. As such you are using fewer of the bits during the ADC. This will have an effect and your noise floor.

However, in reality most folks have other complications that the raise the noise floor to a greater extent. So this may not be the end of the world. In my own set up I do it the hard way and keep the signal digital until the final DAC at the DCX and then use a 6 channel volume knob between the DCX and the amps.

[sunnysal]

while most units have automatic settings modes you can adjust most any of them in an infinite variety of ways, I ended up feeling overwhelmed by the many adjustments one can make to the DEQX and decided to go back to "simple life" (well this was before going to the squeezebox, NAS, etc. LOL!). Another thing that kept me away from the pro stuff was the seemingly poor handling of things like poweroutages (i.e. the driveracks would reset to full output atfer each outage, that can HURT) and other details (volume control issues, etc.) that made we want a unit conceived specifically for home audio. I understand the price difference makes a case for trying out the pro unit but do check out some of the giher end home units before taking the plunge. for a room and system like you have assembled this type of system seems ideal to perfect the reproduction of music. warm regards, T

[artto]

while most units have automatic settings modes you can adjust most any of them in an infinite variety of ways, I ended up feeling overwhelmed by the many adjustments one can make to the DEQX and decided to go back to "simple life" (well this was before going to the squeezebox, NAS, etc. LOL!). Another thing that kept me away from the pro stuff was the seemingly poor handling of things like poweroutages (i.e. the driveracks would reset to full output atfer each outage, that can HURT) and other details (volume control issues, etc.) that made we want a unit conceived specifically for home audio. I understand the price difference makes a case for trying out the pro unit but do check out some of the giher end home units before taking the plunge. for a room and system like you have assembled this type of system seems ideal to perfect the reproduction of music. warm regards, T

Thnx Tony. I really wish you still had that unit, I'd take you up on the offer.

In the meantime I heard back from Behringer and it looks like I can set things up the way I want very easily using the PC, so I'll very likely try this first. I was also looking a the EV Dx46 and EV NetMax. The NetMax appears to be way overkill for my needs and I don't like the fact that it has a 3 stage cooling fan. That's the last thing I need in such a quiet room.

Thanks for the headsup in the power outage thing. I'll have to watch out for that. So far the DEQ2496 hasn't displayed that kind of problem but its a little bit different beast.

First I need to replace the caps in the Luxman (been using the McIntosh SS recently), then I'll be set to try this out. [Y]

[sunnysal]

keep us informed. I am anxious to hear your results. warm regards, tony