USED VEHICLE ADVICE

[Audio Android]

Problem is what is made in the USA now?

Come on really? What North American model car is assembled and built in a foreign country, then shipped to our borders.....? Not one.

What are you talking about. Nissan, Honda, Toyota, BMW, Mercedes, Hyundai all have plants in North America but do you really consider them made in America when >51% of the parts are preassembled in Stutgart or Japan?

Sorry........ I meant American car companies. Isn't that what you were implying. That not even American companies make their cars here anymore? I don't mean to start a fight I just get a little upset when someone implies that American cars aren't .....well American. You kind of pushed a button there. Or am I misinterpreting your earlier statement about "What is made in the USA now?". If so I'm sorry, but it just seemed like you were saying American companies don't even make their cars here anymore....What I was trying to say was no American model made by an American company imports any car fully built and assembled in a foreign country.

[Jay481985]

Problem is what is made in the USA now?

Come on really? What North American model car is assembled and built in a foreign country, then shipped to our borders.....? Not one.

What are you talking about. Nissan, Honda, Toyota, BMW, Mercedes, Hyundai all have plants in North America but do you really consider them made in America when >51% of the parts are preassembled in Stutgart or Japan?

Sorry........ I meant American car companies. Isn't that what you were implying. That not even American companies make their cars here anymore? I don't mean to start a fight I just get a little upset when someone implies that American cars aren't .....well American. You kind of pushed a button there. Or am I misinterpreting your earlier statement about "What is made in the USA now?". If so I'm sorry, but it just seemed like you were saying American companies don't even make their cars here anymore.

I am, but Audio Android we are on the same boat. Many GM and Ford vehicles are currently assembled in the US but the parts are outsourced. I believe the worst offender is GM with Chevy being mostly made in Mexico and Canada. As for Ford the Focus that I am looking for is made in Michigan but the engine is from Mexico, the design was from Europe (we don't get all the goodies as well) and other parts come from Canada.

[Audio Android]

I getcha' now, I getcha'........Yeah didn't mean to upset anybody. I just kind of saw that and jumped like, did he really just say that...... I'm just in denial about any other country having their fingerprints on our cars......even if it does make them better, ya know......DON'T TOUCH THAT...[:@]....it's ours not yours. I'm just stubborn....[au]........Sorry BigStew for the slight detour......I'm still for the Boxster.

[HDBRbuilder]

Have you ever been to the BMW plant at Spartanburg, SC?? If not, then next time you find yourself close by, drop in for a tour! You will find that the particular vehicle models produced there are ONLY produced there...for the entire world market! The only thing that is assembled, tested and shipped from Germany is the powertrain for the vehicles. All the rest of the vehicles' assembies are made in the USA. There are numerous subcontractors throughout the area who stamp out the sheet metal parts and such and those are assembled in the plant. Even the upholstery is done locally, but much of the leather is imported from Italy which is used in the upholstering. It has been a few years, but the last time I was there the only vehicles being built there were the SUV and the small two-seater sports car. BUT, that factory was the only one in the world producing them.

So, making sweeping generalizations about foreign marques being made in the USA and how much of the car is actually made here is a bit out of line unless you have your facts straight. ">51% of the parts" is also misleading, because an engine assembly alone would have that or a higher percentage for some vehicles, and much less for others.

Here is more of my experience on the subject...for example semi-tractors...When I was doing OTR trucking for a couple of years, I would pick up a load of ductile iron brake drum castings in Laredo, TX...which had been cast in a Mexican foundry...haul them to NW Arkansas, where I would drop the load at a machine shop which turned and finished the castings, and pick up a load of finished drums there and haul them to Canada, where they would be used in an assembly plant there to build front axle assemblies, drop that load and pick up a load of finished axle assemblies, return to Laredo with them and drop the load so that the sub-assemblies could be taken back to Mexicao for final assembly of Eagle semi tractors. Good or bad...your choice, but it was NAFTA in action!

I was also involved in the transport of stuff in and around Ohio for the manufacture of the Hondas in Marysville...SO I fully understand how all of that is done, too! Even the paint is mixed locally for Honda. Body panels and other stampings are sub-contracted out locally, too...just like in BMW's plant in Spartanburg, SC. Just because the car plant itself does not make all the parts on site, doesn't mean they are all shipped over from another country, and vice versa!

Another thing...just because the engine block casting says it is made in Mexico, that doesn't mean that the engine assembly or even any of the parts used in the assembly other than the block casting itself, were made in Mexico. I formerly worked in an iron foundry pattern shop... for about a decade...so I fully understand how that stuff works, too! You know why foundries and such move out of the US? It isn't JUST because of lower labor wages elsewhere...it also has to do with getting decent RELIABLE employees who are PRODUCTIVE and don't have an attitude that they are "entitled" to be texting instead of working....for example. There are many more examples...but you get the picture!

-Andy

[Boxx]

Check the CARFAX before any purchase.... lol..

[germerikan]

Another thought, iffin you are Big then the Boxter might not be the most comfortable for you.

Nice car though!!

[tigerwoodKhorns]

My 2c

Only buy Toyota or Honda products. I have an older Lexus that never breaks down. Still has the original ac charge in the system and looks like new. After owning sports cars and muscle cars in the past, I prefer the big 4 door, but if you like a convertible, the smaller SC430 is really nice. There was a mint one for sale locally with 40K miles on it for about $22K.

These cars easily go 200K+ without any repairs and if you find a nice low mileage one, you can pay cash (I am assuming you need a big down payment on a Porsche or Land Rover, or buying used = paying cash anyway). I do all of the maintenance, including flushing every fluid every two years. There was also a beautiful LS430 for sale locally (big 4 door) with 40K miles for $26K. I really considered getting it but my car is still as new so I talked myself out of it.

Brother has a very expensive BMW and has had several maintenance issues. Another good friend has the hopped up BMW (forget the name) and had the rear diff replaced. He said, "but the car is 6 years old." I told him that my car still has the original AC charge in it and he was shocked. Lexus is the new VW Beetle from the past. They run forever. Spend your extra cash on motorcycles and audio equipment.

[Jay481985]

Have you ever been to the BMW plant at Spartanburg, SC?? If not, then next time you find yourself close by, drop in for a tour! You will find that the particular vehicle models produced there are ONLY produced there...for the entire world market! The only thing that is assembled, tested and shipped from Germany is the powertrain for the vehicles. All the rest of the vehicles' assembies are made in the USA. There are numerous subcontractors throughout the area who stamp out the sheet metal parts and such and those are assembled in the plant. Even the upholstery is done locally, but much of the leather is imported from Italy which is used in the upholstering. It has been a few years, but the last time I was there the only vehicles being built there were the SUV and the small two-seater sports car. BUT, that factory was the only one in the world producing them.

So, making sweeping generalizations about foreign marques being made in the USA and how much of the car is actually made here is a bit out of line unless you have your facts straight. ">51% of the parts" is also misleading, because an engine assembly alone would have that or a higher percentage for some vehicles, and much less for others.

Here is more of my experience on the subject...for example semi-tractors...When I was doing OTR trucking for a couple of years, I would pick up a load of ductile iron brake drum castings in Laredo, TX...which had been cast in a Mexican foundry...haul them to NW Arkansas, where I would drop the load at a machine shop which turned and finished the castings, and pick up a load of finished drums there and haul them to Canada, where they would be used in an assembly plant there to build front axle assemblies, drop that load and pick up a load of finished axle assemblies, return to Laredo with them and drop the load so that the sub-assemblies could be taken back to Mexicao for final assembly of Eagle semi tractors. Good or bad...your choice, but it was NAFTA in action!

I was also involved in the transport of stuff in and around Ohio for the manufacture of the Hondas in Marysville...SO I fully understand how all of that is done, too! Even the paint is mixed locally for Honda. Body panels and other stampings are sub-contracted out locally, too...just like in BMW's plant in Spartanburg, SC. Just because the car plant itself does not make all the parts on site, doesn't mean they are all shipped over from another country, and vice versa!

Another thing...just because the engine block casting says it is made in Mexico, that doesn't mean that the engine assembly or even any of the parts used in the assembly other than the block casting itself, were made in Mexico. I formerly worked in an iron foundry pattern shop... for about a decade...so I fully understand how that stuff works, too! You know why foundries and such move out of the US? It isn't JUST because of lower labor wages elsewhere...it also has to do with getting decent RELIABLE employees who are PRODUCTIVE and don't have an attitude that they are "entitled" to be texting instead of working....for example. There are many more examples...but you get the picture!

-Andy

So made in America or not made in America......

I know exactly what I meant when I said BMW as well lets not show off. The X model and Z model equate to very little bottom line in BMW. And the really sad thing is the powertrain aka engine and chasis come pre aseembled from stutgart german. If America was so great why bother shipping them here. Make them here.

And the same goes with every other instance. By telling me about the brake situation in Mexico you show the same capacity as a person who buys a craftman tool thinking it was fully made in America instead of casted in China and finished and boxed in America (thought they claim they are going to be changing it to 100% american)

[Fjd]

So, making sweeping generalizations about foreign marques being made in the USA and how much of the car is actually made here is a bit out of line unless you have your facts straight. ">51% of the parts" is also misleading, because an engine assembly alone would have that or a higher percentage for some vehicles, and much less for others.

Good or bad...your choice, but it was NAFTA in action!

You know why foundries and such move out of the US? It isn't JUST because of lower labor wages elsewhere...it also has to do with getting decent RELIABLE employees who are PRODUCTIVE and don't have an attitude that they are "entitled" to be texting instead of working....for example. There are many more examples...but you get the picture!

-Andy

I have really enjoyed reading your perspective and analysis and the various experiences you have commuicated in many posts; however, with all due respect, I believe that the part above about ‘texting’ may be more from your personal experience based on specific people you worked with, presented from too much of a general statement point of view (i.e. many factory hourly people that I know do not even have a cell phone, including myself for a number of years in that type of blue-collar role), and not necessarily factually supportable as a significant driver of corporate business strategies designed to move work around to other countries.

Even my next statement is too general given all of the competing agendas in a world economy as trade barriers are lowered or dismantled; however, some believe that a good tax attorney would be equally, or perhaps, much more of a reason, that patterns such as you describe occur, not just ‘texting.’

Not specific to any particular industry, but many global companies now have what is called “transfer pricing” models, which are essentially paper transactions among corporate subsidiaries that allow for allocating income to ‘tax haven’ locations while attributing expenses to ‘higher-tax’ locations.

While these ‘earnings’ are technically ‘deferred’ until repatriated back to the parent company location (i.e. U.S.), only in extreme circumstances (i.e. liquidity issues), do any significant portions of these earnings end up repatriated. These business and tax planning strategies all seem to be within the rules.

I fully realize that many factors are considered when business is set up in a certain location, including marketing reasons to be better positioned to respond to changes in demand trends, and gaps in quality that can be quickly identified and addressed; or location may be determined by various legal agreements and joint ventures created for a specific product or market, among others.

Top U.S. Firms Are Cash-Rich Abroad, Cash-Poor at Home (subscription needed for entire article)

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323717004578157331091972730.html

Google 2.4% Rate Shows How $60 Billion Lost to Tax Loopholes

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-21/google-2-4-rate-shows-how-60-billion-u-s-revenue-lost-to-tax-loopholes.html

Who Made Your Car? Parts 1 - 3

http://www.cbt.com.my/2012/10/10/who-made-your-car-part-1/

http://www.cbt.com.my/2012/10/10/who-made-your-car-part-2/

http://www.cbt.com.my/2012/10/15/who-made-your-car-part-3-one-vw-standard-across-the-globe/

Same issues in the U.K.

http://www.worldfinance.com/markets/technology/hm-revenue-and-custom-taxes

To give equal time to the view of decisions that goes into international tax planning

http://www.forbes.com/sites/lowellyoder/2012/06/19/u-s-corporations-act-responsibly-in-reducing-foreign-taxes/

Companies' Cash

Company	Date	Total Cash	Cash in the U.S.
Apple Inc.	9.29.2012	$121.25 billion*	$38.65 billion
Becton, Dickinson and Co.	9.30.2012	2.18 billion	430 million
Danaher Corp.	9.28.2012	1.5 billion	574 million
Dover Corp.	9.30.2012	794 million	278 million
Emerson Electric	9.30.2012	2 billion	0**
General Electric Corp.	9.30.2012	85.5 billion	30.7 billion
ITW Inc.	9.30.2012	2.1 billion	0
Johnson & Johnson	12.31.2011	24.5 billion	0
Microsoft Corp.	9.30.2012	66.6 billion	8.6 billion
Oracle Corp.	8.31.2012	31.6 billion*	6.4 billion
Staples Inc.	10.27.2012	1.02 billion	133 million
Whirlpool Corp.	12.31.2012	1.1 billion	168 million

*includes marketable securities**'Substantially all' the company's cash is held outside of the U.S.Source: the companies

My apologies to the OP for drifting off-topic, but sometimes I believe that, as a society, we seem to continually load a lot of blame onto that hourly worker's back without looking at all sides of a decision. In fact, didn't I read somewhere recently that the hourly worker was the entire cause of the extinction of the twinkie? [][]

[JL Sargent]

Don't buy a Lexus with an interference engine. The timing belt breaks and you buy the top half of the motor and a piston or two. Got a buddy that specializes in repairing those. It's true, all cars can fail at any time.

[seti]

I had a Land Rover Discovery II. It was one of my favorite vehicles I've ever owned. Never had a problem with it and sold it for more than I paid for it. However I will say Land Rovers are like the space shuttle in that you don't want to drive them without doing the scheduled maintenance. The maintenance list is pretty lengthy. I sold it and bought a GMC Sierra.

[HDBRbuilder]

So made in America or not made in America......

I know exactly what I meant when I said BMW as well lets not show off. The X model and Z model equate to very little bottom line in BMW. And the really sad thing is the powertrain aka engine and chasis come pre aseembled from stutgart german. If America was so great why bother shipping them here. Make them here.

And the same goes with every other instance. By telling me about the brake situation in Mexico you show the same capacity as a person who buys a craftman tool thinking it was fully made in America instead of casted in China and finished and boxed in America (thought they claim they are going to be changing it to 100% american)

Once again, the POWER TRAIN ASSEMBLIES...Engine/Tranny/final drive NOT THE CHASSIS...are assembled and tested in Germany and then shipped to Spartanburg for installation in the vehicles...it is NOT a rolling chassis (which is the power train installed in a chassis)...just the power train major components. I have watched them install the powertrain assemblies into the sports car..and the SUV...it takes only about five minutes, installed from UNDERNEATH the vehicle, using FOUR BOLTS for the engine/tranny in the sports car. I bobtailed over to the plant and parked my semi-tractor and hung out in the plant while waiting for a trailer to be unloaded at the Grainger distribution center a few miles away. I did this numerous times...Grainger schedules all loads before they even arrive, so if you arrive early you still must drop the trailer and return for it after the scheduled unload time. Hanging out at the BMW plant, watching the video, taking a tour, checking out the museum (nice one for its small size in a limited space...has aircraft, automobile and motorcycle elements and is well-laid-out)...a nice way to spend a two or three-hour delay. Plus, if you aren't driving, you can have a nice Bavarian brew in the snack bar.

I am showing what kind of capacity?? Are you talking MENTAL capacity?? I actually KNOW where the original style Craftsman wrenches were made...a tool and die plant in Fort Smith, AR....for many years...and the pebble-finished wrenches are still made in USA, for the most part, but it is the HIGHLY polished ones that are made in China, for the most part. The wrenches are NOT CASTED, nor are they CAST...they are FORGED in a die...there is a HUGE difference between the two!

The reason the highly-polished wrenches are made in China is that the polishing process is LABOR INTENSIVE, and that portion of the process is cheaper to do there, so they just do the entire process, start-to-finish, there, otherwise, they would be made AND polished here. Now, power tools and screwdrivers and micro-torx torque wrenches are a different story.

Litte Hint for ya here: Just because I have spent much of my life doing factory assembly and manual labor doesn't mean my mental CAPACITY is any less than yours. Keep in mind that such remarks may be taken by others to actually shed light upon YOUR "capacity." By the way, castings are CAST in a foundry, NOT "casted." Guess what? We all have the same CAPACITY to use spell-check! Ain't that GREAT??[]

Have a wonderful day and don't exceed any of your capacities!

-Andy

[sputnik]

Thought about the Honda S2000? Easy to pronounce and Honda quality.

[Jay481985]

So made in America or not made in America......

I know exactly what I meant when I said BMW as well lets not show off. The X model and Z model equate to very little bottom line in BMW. And the really sad thing is the powertrain aka engine and chasis come pre aseembled from stutgart german. If America was so great why bother shipping them here. Make them here.

And the same goes with every other instance. By telling me about the brake situation in Mexico you show the same capacity as a person who buys a craftman tool thinking it was fully made in America instead of casted in China and finished and boxed in America (thought they claim they are going to be changing it to 100% american)

Once again, the POWER TRAIN ASSEMBLIES...Engine/Tranny/final drive NOT THE CHASSIS...are assembled and tested in Germany and then shipped to Spartanburg for installation in the vehicles...it is NOT a rolling chassis (which is the power train installed in a chassis)...just the power train major components. I have watched them install the powertrain assemblies into the sports car..and the SUV...it takes only about five minutes, Its called "the marriage" if you want to get technical, as you want to here. installed from UNDERNEATH the vehicle, using FOUR BOLTS for the engine/tranny in the sports car. I bobtailed over to the plant and parked my semi-tractor and hung out in the plant while waiting for a trailer to be unloaded at the Grainger distribution center a few miles away. I did this numerous times...Grainger schedules all loads before they even arrive, so if you arrive early you still must drop the trailer and return for it after the scheduled unload time. Hanging out at the BMW plant, watching the video, taking a tour, checking out the museum (nice one for its small size in a limited space...has aircraft, automobile and motorcycle elements and is well-laid-out)...a nice way to spend a two or three-hour delay. Plus, if you aren't driving, you can have a nice Bavarian brew in the snack bar.

I am showing what kind of capacity?? Are you talking MENTAL capacity?? I actually KNOW where the original style Craftsman wrenches were made...a tool and die plant in Fort Smith, AR....for many years...and the pebble-finished wrenches are still made in USA, for the most part, but it is the HIGHLY polished ones that are made in China, for the most part. The wrenches are NOT CASTED, nor are they CAST...they are FORGED in a die...there is a HUGE difference between the two!

Excuse me how do you exactly forge a tool without extruding or casting it, the billets first. Tools are then forged and punched out of metal. Where do you think the extruded metal billets come from. China.

The reason the highly-polished wrenches are made in China is that the polishing process is LABOR INTENSIVE, and that portion of the process is cheaper to do there, so they just do the entire process, start-to-finish, there, otherwise, they would be made AND polished here. Now, power tools and screwdrivers and micro-torx torque wrenches are a different story.

Labor intenstive? All mass produced polishing is done through electropolishing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electropolishing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll2Etda-QFU

Litte Hint for ya here: Just because I have spent much of my life doing factory assembly and manual labor doesn't mean my mental CAPACITY is any less than yours. Keep in mind that such remarks may be taken by others to actually shed light upon YOUR "capacity." By the way, castings are CAST in a foundry, NOT "casted." Guess what? We all have the same CAPACITY to use spell-check! Ain't that GREAT??

Have a wonderful day and don't exceed any of your capacities!

-Andy

I wasted enough time with you.

[BigStewMan]

wow, didn't realize this was such a voltile topic. few seems to endorse the range rover and that is exactly the same sentiment that i've found talking to people at work. So, the Boxter is in the lead. Still haven't ruled out a Mercedez; but, will probably be the Boxter. Thanks for the advice everyone....now kiss and make up.

[JL Sargent]

Now Mercedes Benz is a premium automobile in my humble opinion. Which one might you be interested?

[Jeff Matthews]

I think buying a Boxter is like buying a Rolex. You'll wind up paying the price of several more reliable cars just to maintain the fast car that you will not drive too fast all the time - unless you like traffic tickets.

I think, for cars, physical comfort is in top order. Balance that out with mileage and cost.

Land Rover? Laughable, but egos want them. The Hyundai Santa Fe is very, very reliable. Honda is good. I hear Kia is very good. Toyota, too.

I'm more of a balloon-popper when it comes to cars and see them mostly for utility (except for my classic cars due to their rareness).

How is it that working class people are convinced to buy $50,000 and $60,000 cars? Or to pay $25,000 for a used $60,000 car with no warranty and lots of mileage? I have so-wanted to open a restaurant and offer $55 cheeseburgers. I bet a million suckers would line up at the door. (But it would be a very generous and tasty burger!)

[CECAA850]

I'd look for a well maintained Yugo.

[Jeff Matthews]

I bet you could get a better deal on a Le Car.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

I have so-wanted to open a restaurant and offer $55 cheeseburgers. I bet a million suckers would line up at the door. (But it would be a very generous and tasty burger!)

Aw come on, you already charge people $6 a minute to talk to you. [6]

Glad to see you back around here.