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2nd sub not showing up in mcacc setup for my pioneer elite receiver


synergyfreak

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thanks I was trying to understand that myself someone reccommended in the avs forums using a ysplitter on the main sub preout, is this recommended, do you lose any dbs by doing this just curious since never tried it before.

As CECAA850 said, there is no problem at all in using a Y-splitter.

However, you really should assess what your AVR's capabilities truly are. If it has 2 sub outs (and you only have 2 subs), whether those sub-outs are EQ'd/bass and time managed/level-matched/etc. individually or not, you should just simply use the 2 separate sub outs to connect your subs (unless wiring with a Y-adapter somewhere away from the AVR provides you with tidier wiring). But if your AVR is capable of EQing/bass and time managing/level-matching/etc. 2 sub outs independently, and you ARE going to use the MCACC to EQ/bass and time managed/level-match/etc. your setup, then, by all means, I would take advantage of that capability.

What is your AVR's model # (forgive me if you have already stated this)? I will have a look at the manual and see if I can decipher what its capabilities are in this regard.

The extra sub input is for convience
only on the Pioneer avr's. MCACC does calibrate settings based on the
two locations, this is according to Pioneer's tech support.

It's an output, not an "input". What do you mean it calibrates settings based on the two locations? It either can adjust the two sub outputs individually or not.
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its the pioneer elite vsx-60, my plan is once rc-64 shows up my system will be complete and looking at upgrading to the flagship series, with the money I am making now and plus going to make 1500 on selling my previous model klipsch reference speakers will have that money spend on a better model pioneer elite sc- model.

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a

What do you mean it calibrates settings based on the two locations? It either can adjust the two sub outputs individually or not.

MCACC wll not EQ the subs as Audyssey. It will adjust the phase and standing wave corrections for the two sub. The standing wave feature/filters are similar to a 3 band parametric EQ but does not go below 60 Hz. It will time align all the speakers, adjust for reveb/resonace, set delay and EQ the system as a whole. MCACC is great for overall system integration. The standing wave function will correct for peaks/dips associated with frequency, bandwith and raise or lower the levels on the problem standing waves.

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It will adjust the phase and standing wave corrections for the two sub.

I assume you mean in unity. In other words, it will adjust both subs' combined output, but not individually. Unless the AVR is equipped with a version of Audyssey that will do two subs individually, Audyssey wil do the same; that being, EQ and adjust the combined output of two (or more) subs, in unison.

Or am I misunderstanding? [:S]

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My understanding of the new Pioneer avr's from talking to Pioneer is that the avr will treat them as one for total system integration. I have 4 subs and have used various combinations, two ported, sealed + ported and MCACC has alway been able to blend them into the system without problem. I have used Icon V speaker with my Reference set and MCACC had no problems timber matching and adjusting things so that the the VC 25 worked well with the RF 7's before I got my RC 64. As you can tell, I think highly of MCACC's capabilities.

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My understanding of the new Pioneer avr's from talking to Pioneer is that the avr will treat them as one for total system integration. I have 4 subs and have used various combinations, two ported, sealed + ported and MCACC has alway been able to blend them into the system without problem. I have used Icon V speaker with my Reference set and MCACC had no problems timber matching and adjusting things so that the the VC 25 worked well with the RF 7's before I got my RC 64. As you can tell, I think highly of MCACC's capabilities.

What would MCACC do if one sub was out of phase with the other?

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how would one sub get out of phase with the other just wondering

A couple ways come to mind. The actual phase switch on the sub (or dial) could be set differently on the two subs. One sub may inadverdantly be wired differently than the other. The subs physical location in relation to the other sub (or mains) is yet another.

I guess my question is, if the receiver does NOT have the ability to calibrate the subs independantly, how would it overcome the all too common issue of phase issues between two non co-located subs?

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ok just never seen this happen if I set the phase and gains exactly the same, from reading what derrick dj told me from tech. support from pioneers receiver runnning the inputs to the receiver it calibrated mine exactly the same based on the settings, i had issues when first started doing this but to me setting both my subs up exactly the same, the mcacc program does it all for you, i maybe missing your point, because I am running identical sw-115s. I even tried what said running the y-splitter for the two subs noticed no difference than running the two pre outs from receivers 7.2

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If I understand you correctly, after MCACC is ran, I would expect similar results. The 2nd sub outlet or the Y connector does not change what MCACC will do with the two subs. I can't hear my subs unless I go and put my ear next to the speakers. That means they are blended in with the mains. The way I know the subs are working is with movies or to listen with puredirec/direct. It sounds like you have everything working OK. Even two identical subs will have a different frequency response because of their location in the room. MCACC does a good job with phase. Phase and standing wave are eailer in the audio chain which is where MCACC works, in contrast Audyssey waits to the end of the audio chain and the applies EQ. This is one of the major difference between the two programs. Below is a partial excerpt from Blueray.com, It is very informative on setting up multiple sub.

Connecting and Setting Up Two Subwoofers:

  1. To add a second subwoofer, buy a Y adapter (1 male, 2 female) and two sub
    cables. Insert the male side of the Y adapter into the LFE out (sub out or sub
    pre-out) on the back of the receiver. Attach the two sub cables to the female
    sides of the Y adapter and connect each cable to the back of each subwoofer.
  2. With two subs, you will have to experiment to get good bass sound. The end
    result will be better than one subwoofer as you can create more uniform bass
    across the room for all listening positions.
  3. Remember that our ears are not as sensitive to very low frequency sound. As
    a result, deeper and lower frequency bass sound does not sound as loud as upper
    frequency bass sound. A subwoofer that does not go as low may sound louder, but
    it lacks the low frequency extension. It is possible that you are used to that
    from your previous subwoofer and your brain needs some time to adjust.
  4. If you are planning to use two subwoofers, you must carefully match their
    levels at your primary listening position. You may have to turn one off and
    adjust the other one until you get it right.
  5. Also when you run two subs, there is possibility of phase cancellation. You
    need to experiment with their position and phase.
  6. Once all the placements are finalized, don't forget to re-calibrate your
    speakers again as different subwoofers and different placements will interact
    differently with the room boundaries.

Placement of two
Subwoofers:

You need to place the two subs properly for the best bass
performance. You can try three options:
  1. Put one in the middle of the right wall and one in the middle of the left
    wall.
  2. Put one in the middle of the front wall and one in the middle of the rear
    wall.
  3. Put one sub in the front right corner and the other sub in the front left
    corner.
  4. Put one in the front corner and the other in the corner in the the rear of
    the room.
  5. If you have two different subs, put the larger sub with better lower
    frequency extension in the front corner and put the smaller sub close to your
    listening area. The sub up front will provide you with deeper and lower
    frequency bass and sub near you will provide you with upper frequency bass
    sound.
In all cases, move the subs at least a foot away from the walls
and adjust their levels so that one does not overpower the
other.


Adjustment of Two Subwoofers
  1. On the back of the subs, turn their levels to 50%-60%, no higher than 75%.
  2. On the back of the subs, turn their crossovers all the way up to their
    maximum point. You set the crossover in the receiver.
  3. In the receiver's menu, set all speakers to SMALL.
  4. In the receiver's menu, set the crossovers of all the speakers to 80Hz. You
    can deviate from 80Hz depending on the low frequency extension of your speakers.
    Make sure the crossover is always set at least 10Hz-15Hz higher than the minimum
    frequency response (+-3dB) of your speakers.
  5. In the receiver's menu, set the crossover frequency of the LFE channel to
    120Hz.
  6. In the receiver's menu, set the level of the subwoofers to zero.
  7. Turn off one subwoofer.
  8. Play the test tones through the subwoofer that is on and measure its
    response with an SPL meter. Adjust its level on its back (not the receiver) so
    that you get approximately 73dB.
  9. Turn on the other subwoofer and turn off the previous subwoofer.
  10. Run test tones through it and adjust the level on its back so that you get
    approximately 73dB.
  11. Now, turn on both subwoofers and do not touch the levels on their back.
  12. After you adjust the level of each subwoofer independetly, it is a good idea
    to run the calibration program inside the receiver. In addition to checking the
    level of the combined output of both subwoofers, the receiver will also equalize
    them. Alternatively, you can use an external parametric equalizer.
  13. Double check the settings with your SPL meter. Run the test tones again and
    adjust the levels of all the speakers. Make sure the SPL meter is held steady at
    a 45 degree angle at the primary listening position. Don't stand directly behind
    the SPL meter. Stand on the side. It is best for the SPL meter to be on a
    tripod.
  14. When the time comes to adjust the subwoofers, move the SPL meter slightly to
    the right and slightly to the left and average the dB level that it registers.

Hopefully this will work.

A Guide to Bass Management Part I, Blueray.com, 4/20/2009, by Bid Daddy

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=95817

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Ideally, a subwoofer should never call attention to itself. It should make the bass in the room more balanced, extended, powerful, detailed, add deapth and blend with the main speakers. Multiple subs don't get rid of room modes nor do we want to get rid of them. The two or more different subs will stimulate different room mode and smooth out the bass respone in the room. Even two identical subs will have a different phase and frequency response by virtue of their location in the room. When exposions go off in a movie, it should be everywhere and you should not looking over in the direction of the sub/s.

With Pioneer avr's, after MCACC has been ran, the sub level in the avr should be around 0, mine's is at -3. This will leave enough headroom, to boost the level in the avr if you need more/like bass and not have to worry about clipping the amp, mechanical driver damage or the sub bottoming out. I never play with the sub gain after MCACC has been done. Other more knowlegabe forum member will chime in on this post.

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ok just never seen this happen if I set the phase and gains exactly the same, from reading what derrick dj told me from tech. support from pioneers receiver runnning the inputs to the receiver it calibrated mine exactly the same based on the settings, i had issues when first started doing this but to me setting both my subs up exactly the same, the mcacc program does it all for you, i maybe missing your point, because I am running identical sw-115s. I even tried what said running the y-splitter for the two subs noticed no difference than running the two pre outs from receivers 7.2

Maybe I don't understand everything I know[:P].

If you have 2 subs and they are equal distance to you and they both emit the same sound then I would think that the sound wave would reach your ears from both subs at the same time (in phase). If you have 2 subs that are not the same distance from you and they both emit the same sound and the sound reaches your ears at slightly different times then I would think that they would be out of phase. I was wondering how the receiver compensates for that.

If you also have 2 subs and the listening position is in a null (sound waves cancelling each other out), I was wondering how the receiver compensated for that also.

Both of the above scenarios can be addressed with an SPL meter and test tones but I was wondering how the receiver would address this if there was only one sub output and a "Y" splitting the signal to the subs.

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oh ok i see what your saying that has me intrgued too might just go get an spl meter just to see if they are showing the same db on each sub, just to be sure.

I'm not talking about output, I'm talking about phase. Having one sub slightly out of phase with another sub (or your mains) makes bass sound muddy or smeared. Put them in phase and bass gets tighter and more clear. You need test tones and someone to adjust the individual phase on each sub while you're measuring (and listening) to check it.

I was wondering if a receiver (or pre-pro) that had dual sub outputs had the ability to measure and correct such issues.

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An AVR's auto-EQ/auto-cal can't do anything, directly, to adjust the phasing between 2 (or more) subs connected via Y-splitter to a single sub output or 2 (or more) subs connected to separate sub outs that are not capable of being independently adjusted by the AVR. Phasing between two (or more) subs in this instance would, of course, have be adjusted as best as possible at the subs, themselves.

An AVR's auto-EQ/auto-cal in this instance would (could or should), however, be able to (try to) compensate, to some degree, for any acoustic anomolies that might result from 2 (or more) subs not being in phase with one another. In other words, if there were a severe dip in the combined FR at a particular frequency that was attributable to subwoofer phasing, you would (or might) expect an AVR's auto-EQ/auto-cal software to try to address that.

But, I do not know what the exact capabilities at the lower frequencies are of the version of MCACC in question.

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Adjustment of Two Subwoofers

  1. On the back of the subs, turn their levels to 50%-60%, no higher than 75%.
  2. On the back of the subs, turn their crossovers all the way up to their
    maximum point. You set the crossover in the receiver.
  3. In the receiver's menu, set all speakers to SMALL.
  4. In the receiver's menu, set the crossovers of all the speakers to 80Hz. You
    can deviate from 80Hz depending on the low frequency extension of your speakers.
    Make sure the crossover is always set at least 10Hz-15Hz higher than the minimum
    frequency response (+-3dB) of your speakers.
  5. In the receiver's menu, set the crossover frequency of the LFE channel to
    120Hz.
  6. In the receiver's menu, set the level of the subwoofers to zero.
  7. Turn off one subwoofer.
  8. Play the test tones through the subwoofer that is on and measure its
    response with an SPL meter. Adjust its level on its back (not the receiver) so
    that you get approximately 73dB.
  9. Turn on the other subwoofer and turn off the previous subwoofer.
  10. Run test tones through it and adjust the level on its back so that you get
    approximately 73dB.
  11. Now, turn on both subwoofers and do not touch the levels on their back.
  12. After you adjust the level of each subwoofer independetly, it is a good idea
    to run the calibration program inside the receiver. In addition to checking the
    level of the combined output of both subwoofers, the receiver will also equalize
    them. Alternatively, you can use an external parametric equalizer.
  13. Double check the settings with your SPL meter. Run the test tones again and
    adjust the levels of all the speakers. Make sure the SPL meter is held steady at
    a 45 degree angle at the primary listening position. Don't stand directly behind
    the SPL meter. Stand on the side. It is best for the SPL meter to be on a
    tripod.
  14. When the time comes to adjust the subwoofers, move the SPL meter slightly to
    the right and slightly to the left and average the dB level that it registers.

This is level-matching. And it can work just fine. However, it is also very possible that after applying EQ, in unison, to two (or more) level-matched subwoofers that they would no longer be level-matched. Not really a big deal but for identical (not dissimilar) subwoofers connected to a single subwoofer output, I would recommend simply gain-matching them. It is probably easier to do and has some advantages over level-matching.

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An AVR's auto-EQ/auto-cal can't do anything, directly, to adjust the phasing between 2 (or more) subs connected via Y-splitter to a single sub output or 2 (or more) subs connected to separate sub outs that are not capable of being independently adjusted by the AVR. Phasing between two (or more) subs in this instance would, of course, have be adjusted as best as possible at the subs, themselves.

An AVR's auto-EQ/auto-cal in this instance would (could or should), however, be able to (try to) compensate, to some degree, for any acoustic anomolies that might result from 2 (or more) subs not being in phase with one another. In other words, if there were a severe dip in the combined FR at a particular frequency that was attributable to subwoofer phasing, you would (or might) expect an AVR's auto-EQ/auto-cal software to try to address that.

But, I do not know what the exact capabilities at the lower frequencies are of the version of MCACC in question.

That makes sense, thanks. Processing would have to be very sophisticated to properly set up 2 non co-located subs automatically by the receiver.

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Processing would have to be very sophisticated to properly set up 2 non co-located subs automatically by the receiver.

There are some AVRs available now with truly independent subwoofer outputs and a version of Audyssey that can do just that.

That said, Audyssey (at least the more capable versions), because of the specific way it works, actually does a very good job of dealing with phasing anomolies with two (or more) subs connected to a single subwoofer output.. I donl't know about MCACC but I do know it works very differently from Audyssey.

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