Fotog Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 I would like for my KLF's to sound "fuller" at low volume. Meaning, they sound great at volumes near -25 but that is typically too loud for me. I would like to get the same "fullness" but at volumes closer to -50. What do I need to do to my setup or system to get the sound I am seeking? More powerful amplifier? Tubes? Crites upgrades? Any approximate cost estimates? This is specifically in regards to music not movies. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 You simply need loudness compensation. I'm sure your Yamaha AVR has such a feature, perhaps called Dynamic Eq. Engage that for low level listening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Get bigger Klipsch speakers. You said "low" volumes. A bigger amp just gives more volume, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzannucci Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 If you add a little low bass with the EQ - YPAO if no loudness compensation is available, you will be surprised at the change at lower volumes. The Yamaha's typically have more than enough highs which may be your complaint though when you have an electronic EQ, you should use it. Raising the bass a little won't get ugly at higher volumes as raising the highs will. If you want fuller/tighter bass outside of that, you will need to do some investment in amps that are known to be be voiced that way such as IcePower or other Class D amps. Going with external amps could show you the shortcomings of using the Yamaha as a preamp. The KLF-30's are big enough to rock your house (they can be used in night clubs and are one of the largest Klipsch) so I am not sure bigger speakers are in order though the tweeter is a little hot and matched with the Yamaha receiver, may not be an ideal pairing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 A bigger and/or a better sub will give you all the fullness you need at low volumes. Multiple subs can take it even further with more impressive results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Loudness compensation is a setting found on some hi-fi equipment and equalisers that increases the level of the high and low frequencies.[1]This is intended to be used at low listening levels, to compensate for the fact that as the volume of audio decreases, the ear's lower sensitivity to extreme high and low frequencies may cause these signals to fall below threshold.[2]As a result audio material may seem to become 'thin' sounding at low volumes, losing bass and treble, the 'Loudness compensation' button (often just labelled 'Loudness' or 'Loud') is intended to rectify this situation. See the section on Loudness for a more detailed explanation of the ears' sensitivity to sound as a function of frequency. Loudness compensation is difficult to implement, since the audio level at a listener's ears depends on speaker sensitivity as well as amplifier gain. Loudness controls are rarely present on modern equipment, although such controls were common on 70s and 80s amplifiers. One reason for its apparent popularity could be that older speakers needed a boost in bass and the high frequencies to balance losses in the speakers, and sometimes the media itself. For loudness compensation to work correctly the playback system must be set to the same overall volume level that was used in the mastering location. Fortunately, for movie soundtracks this reference volume level is an industry standard* and can be used by manufacturers to provide a loudness feature that works with a reasonable degree of accuracy. A Home theater product that provides a reference level indication on the volume control can be expected to work well with movie soundtracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 The bass control on the APT preamp has a switch next to it, in one position it is designed for variable loudness compensation. Many Yamaha and McIntosh products also have similar variable loudness controls, although I felt the APT was the best of them all. This is a very hard product to find used, and they generally bring $300 or so. http://kenrockwell.com/audio/apt/holman-preamplifier.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Yes, a big amp will add some "beef" even at low volumes. The problem is that 7 channels of big amps will break the bank. The Fletcher–Munson curve is working against you, so using the built in tone controls is a useable alternative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotog Posted January 14, 2013 Author Share Posted January 14, 2013 Thank you all for the feedback. I do recall a "loudness" button on an older Technics amplifier that is long gone. Hadn't even thought of that on this current Yahama. Completely forgot about the sub's role in the particular application I am trying to get improved. Typically I leave it on auto - but for this application it does not turn on - so that is an easy fix to manually engage the sub. Further, will review the EQ settings - a very easy correction to my low volume issue. Truly appreciate the replies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipbarrett Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Multiple subs can take it even further with more impressive results. As PWK would say..."BS" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Multiple subs can take it even further with more impressive results. As PWK would say..."BS" Why would it be BS? It's only a suggestion among other suggestions.....and distributed bass has shown to give a lot of satisfaction to many that have tried it. As always though....proper integration is key otherwise the system can easily be degraded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipbarrett Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 ....and distributed bass has shown to give a lot of satisfaction to many that have tried it. As always though....proper integration is key otherwise the system can easily be degraded. Distributed bass will always either cancel or reinforce at varying frequencies depending on the proximity to each other and room construction. This is physics not personal opinion. I contributed to a thread on this subject, including SIM prediction models that graphically demonstrate how this interaction occurs and solutions (using phase and time alignment) to this problem. http://community.klipsch.com/forums/t/120269.aspx?PageIndex=2 If you make it that far, I hope you'll find the last graph interesting and a testimony to a great speaker designer who did not have access to any of this software but still solved the problem of LF nodes in a very simple and highly effective way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 This is physics not personal opinionThanks for the info. []I'm not disagreeing with the facts but sometimes personal listening preference prevails over what is actually more logical on paper, or in physics or on a graph. Using one sub or four subs to tweak a system to one's personal preference is not BS. It might not be 100% correct acoustically speaking....but it's not BS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipbarrett Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Firstly, I do hope you know I used Mr. Klipsch's famous line with my tongue firmly in my cheek and I am actually the 1st to say if you're happy with your system then it's met it's only objective. [] But...that being said, I've never met a multiple sub configuration both in the home and professionally that did exhibit audible cancellation and reinforcement nodes depending on your location in the room. The exception was the Showco Prism system that employed stereo subs and a frequency dependent filtering algorithm that sent differing signals to the left & right channels therefor avoiding the cancellation. If you look at most concert reinforcement systems (see pic linked below) you'll notice that though they employ multiple subwoofer cabinets they are arrayed to act as single unit (in this case cardiod too). This would also be a very effective way of home sub layout but unesercery since (unless you have a huge home) you're not going to be looking for that much power. http://www.flickr.com/photos/paxtonmobile/5177191536/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 "Distributed bass will always either cancel or reinforce at varying frequencies depending on the proximity to each other and room" Dr Floyd Toole and Dr Earl Geddes might take issue with that statement. The National Research Council (NRC) is the home of ground-breaking ... Axiom, one of the founding companies of this research, uses these principles connecting the ... The program was guided by Dr. Floyd Toole, a Canadian physicist and ... http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Documents/White%20Papers/LoudspeakersandRoomsPt3.pdf http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Documents/White%20Papers/multsubs.pdf The GedLee principals arewell versed in a variety of areas associated with acoustics including theoretical acoustics,numerical methods in acoustics, transducers, room acoustics, theories ofhearing, hearing aid design, fitting and sales, as well as an extensiveknowledge of Acoustical patents and legal and technology valuation issues. http://www.gedlee.com/downloads/Audio%20Acoustics%206%2012%2005.ppt http://seriousaudioblog.blogspot.com/2012/05/two-great-articles-on-multiple.html Of course this does not address the loudness effect at lower volumes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipbarrett Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Let's boil this down to basic physics. Think back to the ripples in the pond produced by 2 stones. Where they interact they will either combine or subtract. That's all we're doing here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Having subs distribute the bass should be similar or the same as the mains in that senario? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Let's boil this down to basic physics. Think back to the ripples in the pond produced by 2 stones. Where they interact they will either combine or subtract. That's all we're doing here. I am sure Tom Nousaine's articles have been referenced before on this site but here is an interesting link with Tom's articles that really does make a lot of things about subwoofers and acoustics clear. http://www.nousaine.com/nousaine_tech_articles.html Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiva Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Well, I would agree with you that it is an amp problem. One of things I love about my Klipsch Epic's is how great they do sound at low volume. That is one the great qualities of an efficient speaker design. With just one watt the speakers are slamming. When I listen at night with the volume lower I can still feel that the bass is fully present and impactful and usually I have my subs off then as well. One of the fun things one can do with efficient speakers is use low powered amps and have great sound. I have a Topping TP-30 right now. Which is a digital T-amp that puts out about 10 watts a side and has great bass at low volume.. I have used 5 watt set amps and Sonic T-amps that do the same. My Panasonic SA-BX500 digital amp receiver also delivers great bass at low volumes. My newer Pioneer vsx1121 on the other hand sounds weak at low volume and I knew that on my first listen. When I added my Rotel RB991 or my currently in use Crown K2, the bass came back. For fun, you might look into a nice digital amp from Amazon or parts-express, just to experiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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