just.not.happy

[Turbox]

Ok, its been all day, we need an update.

[CECAA850]

Pardon my ignorance, but what's a D-75?

It's a Crown studio amp (SS).

[LarryC]

It's a Crown studio amp (SS).

Thanks

[colterphoto1]

Dean came over and set me right. It's ok, I was being uber-senstive about amp noise. We did a little balancing, listened to music and pink noise, did not further adjust any PEQ (but I may in the future). Just leaned em pretty hard on the LF side and everything beautiful Fixed a LSI crossover I'd done a capacitor swap on, and loved the change, so that's a new project to work on. Watched a Sabbath DVD and took a listen to his iPhone/Headphone setup - WOW what an experience that was. Solid trouble-shooting, and lending-of-another-set-of-ears day. Thanks Dean, it's always good to hang out and have a steady stream of laughs for 7 hours with a brother.

[Turbox]

Awesome, good to hear

[dtel]

[Y]

Very good, at least you have a good place to start playing with it.

I guess it's like Bracurrie said. " I guess its a balancing act. It took me a long time to find it."

Unless you just throw it in there and go with standard pre-set settings and let it rip ! [] Well I'm to busy listening, guess I should be on a music listening forum instead, I never change anything. [8]

[philipbarrett]

You need to load it all in bobtail and bring it down to me. Give me 5 or 6 years of listening and I'll be happy to give my opinion.

Actually you should tackle it like a gig! Walk in there with the reference CD and play some tunes. Grab a 58 and give it the old Check..1...2. Just picture yourself faced with another PA-de-Jour (maybe with the dreaded "proprietary cabinet") and ask yourself what am I going to have to do to this to make it work tonight?

Then head to catering for today's version of chicken.

[Mighty Favog]

I'd be willing to wager some Skyline Chili-dogs that something isn't right.

Now you're talkin'!

[] []

[bracurrie]

Good.

[Deang]

not uncommon. I heard a few pairs and have seen quite a few folks unload them after buying them.....don't take this the wrong way but it seems if you like to play with settings and dive into very deep studio lingo then certainly the Jubs will keep you busy....but for plug and play...just too many variables to call this soup yet. I see the main issue is the elimination of the mid bass unit and mid range driver while at the same time using the tweeter driver as a mid driver on a mid horn. what a mess.

You're confused. The K-69-A, or P Audio BMD-750 is perfectly capable of being used as a mid-driver, and this is in fact exactly what it was designed to do. For crying out loud, if the Principle Design Engineer for the Commercial Sector of Klipsch decides to put it on his best horn, you can bet your *** it will work. People like you simply muddy the waters.

The strength of the active method is the level of control it gives you. The weakness is the level of control it gives you -- you spend a lot of time second guessing yourself. My primary criticism is that the pro equipment typically utilized to execute the design is sonically inferior to a nice passive set up and a high quality amplifier. I'm not saying this because I build and sell passive filters, I'm saying it because that's what my ears tell me.

Michael's set up actually sounded half-way decent when I got there. I thought the top was a little hot so I took the gain controls on the HF amp down a notch. He still has a lot of stuff in that room -- he knows he needs to clean it out, but what to do with it! The Jubilees have some serious resolving power and careful attention needs to be applied to them to get the best out of them. The problem isn't the speaker, it's the lack of commitment by many owners to see it through. Michael is trying -- he's halfway there. Once the items in the room are moved out, I think he should put them on the short wall, which is actually pretty long. However, they are his speakers, and he will have to make the final placement decision. After he does that, I'll go over and move them where they should be. I enjoyed hearing them again, I'd forgotten how good they sound. We listened to the entire side of side 4 of Second's Out on his vinyl rig, and I thought it sounded pretty sweet.

His workshop is insane. Since Michael is insane, I don't know what I expected to find -- but wow, what a wild world in there. Michael showed me a Type AA that he had just recapped with some Dayton Audio caps. He was concerned that I would make fun of him. Okay, it's not going to win a beauty contest, but most recap jobs won't. The work was perfectly acceptable -- so we decided to compare the old and new networks, but had to put the split LaScalas back together, and work out a little technical hitch before we could start. Since, as we all know -- there are no sonic differences between capacitors, this is always fun to do. After doing the comparison, Michael decided that he was going to recap the remaining four networks, because, as we all know -- there are no sonic differences between capacitors.

We went back inside to warm up and do coffee. After watching about an hour of the Black Sabbath Reunion Tour DVD, I broke out my 2-channel system in a box. I dig watching a person's eyes glass over when they fully realize what's being fed into their auditory system.

I was so overdue for this visit. The next one will include plenty of pictures and hopefully some very positive results with the Big Black Uglies.

[colterphoto1]

At the end of the evening, after playing with Jubilees, tinkering and A/B the LSI networks in the shop (which was pointless, because there are no sonic differences in caps), and listening to Black Sabbath at reasonable volumes (which for Dean and I are nearly identical - a gentle 65-70 dbA), I did become quite glassy-eyed with his 2-channel-in-a-box system. Dean was genius at picking tracks and selected Dream Theater doing King Crimson's 'Larks Tongue in Aspic' is saucy little romp with plenty of Levin bass, very percussive drumming, and dizzying guitar tones. It was amazing, no beyond amazing. The sound wasn't coming from IN my head like the Klipsch Image experience, instead I felt wrapped in a cocoon of music, the stereo field not ping-ponging wildly but a nice spread. Inside the ear cups, the speaker drivers are oriented towards the front, pointing INTO the outer ear from a forward position, wonder if this is what makes the difference. Second track was Yes Parallels feating some cathedral pipe organ by Mr. Rick Wakeman. I could 'feel' the organ pedal notes, the crisp attack of Chris Squire's bass (a personal fave of mine) and the lushness of Jon Anderson's voice and effects were more realistic than I ever recall hearing. And I agreed with the further feathering of the HF on the Jubilees, don't know why I'd been scared to lean em that hard but it is what was required with my amp setup. It's feeling balanced now, but I hate the thought of removing Klispchorns from the house... it just feels wrong.

[Cornman]

Michael, keep the faith & the K402's. My experience was similar to yours in the beginning, thought I had made a mistake with the Jubilee purchase. But soon found out with the most basic adjustments & experimentation the sound was transformed from bla to breath taking! I can not imagine ever going back now. Hang in there you will find the magic you are seeking. Thats one of the virtues of active xover, & even more versatility if your amps have output adjustments.

Good luck,

Cornman

[mark1101]

Mastering control of the 402 in a room is the key to Jubs. Placement, and balancing top and bottom sections is another job but not as difficult. Roy's settings were derived in a chamber. They aren't going to sound exactly perfect in every single room. They aren't going to sound the same in everyone's house. They are a guidelines only and tweaking is usually required. That should be expected and no surprise.

Either you are up to it.............can figure the adjustments out..........or you can't and you are stuck with the factory settings, which may be close but probably not optimal. No offense intended.........and to have the best chance to make yourself happy, tools are required. I absolutely would not believe that a capable person, equipped properly, could not get a pair of Jubs to sound right..........and better than any Heritage speaker.

Probably the hardest thing is trying to further adjust.........or do that tweaking.......of a 402 with a parametric EQ. Very difficult to do without more tools.

Three things helped me (and there's other and better stuff too like waterfall plotting)..........a reference set of speakers in the room to A/B. Can't empahasize this one enough. Also, an RTA measurement system so you can see the in room FR...........and the final is a graphic EQ. Graphic EQs are very easy to use and adjust. Once you get things the way you want you can pretty easily replicate the curve on the parametric and drop the graphic.

With a parametric, if you don't know the curve you are looking for before you start adjusting it, it's very difficult and can be frustrating.

Basically, I'm not too surprised about how this thread went, and how Mike arrived at where things are today. Sounds like it is going to be a success story though.

Unfortunately, I think there have been situations where Jubs just don't get setup optimally, and this has led to bad experiences and misleading posting on this forum. I think it was stated earlier that Jubs are not for everyone. I would definitely agree with that.

[Deang]

The PEQ settings on the active set up are primarily put in place to deal with aberrations in the response, which are going to exist regardless of what room you put the system in. Roy's passive design accomplishes the same thing for the most part. So, the factory settings ARE "optimal".

I played with graphic EQ on and off through the 70's and early 80's. All I ever learned was that using an RTA to get the system flat made the system sound flat (boring), and if I adjusted to taste, I developed a bad case of audio-nervosa with feelings of guilt and shame because the system wasn't "flat". They also introduced more noise and added a grainy mechanical nature to the sound -- like the sound you get from bad solid state.

"Jubs are not for everyone". Okay, well, this statement is applicable to just about everything and anything related to the hobby. I'm tempted to say that they might not be for anyone that already has a sound that they are very happy with. If you are in this position, then you have to overcome strong personal bias. OTOH, if you are sitting there with a stock Heritage set up that you know is fraught with problems and you're sick of that horn drilling a hole in your head -- a pair of Jubilees are going to sound awesome. Of course, it's not the only path to awesomeness -- but it's certainly one of them.

I still say less is more. A nice set of passives and a quality integrated amp, whether tube or solid state -- and that will sound very, very good.

[Marvel]

I still say less is more. A nice set of passives and a quality integrated amp, whether tube or solid state -- and that will sound very, very good.

And just think of all the money you will have saved! I've made almost no changes to my LS, only adding the APT150 on the tops to replace the standard tweets, and moved to the back to align the mid and tweeter. That and the crossovers, and I am still a very, very happy camper.

Bruce

[mark1101]

Dean,

We all have our opinions and I have always respected yours. But I have "actually lived" the 402 for a few years now. I also have a pair of 305s which use the 402 horn. I've gotten to know then very well, and how tempermental they are. I have to say I disagree that Roy's settings are optimal for every room, every system, every situation. They EQ the response of the horn to a Klipsch spec (in a chamber) to remove the "big CD horn hump". But they don't optimize the speaker for any room.

Roy has released multiple versions of the settings based on his own testing and improvements. So as you well know, they changed (improved). One version was because of drivers not being within spec. So the system had lower than normal top end response. This is just one example of why the settings are not optimal for every situation.

So which version should all these Jub guys be using? I guess the verison that matches the output of the their K69s. But how do you know which it is?

The passives were simply a BAD idea. Ultra complicated and 0 flexibility. To change a tiny EQ setting........REBUILD. Only about a thousand bucks a pair to re-EQ them........if you use modest costing parts.

Everyone's rooms and equipment are different. Some probably don't contribute much of a difference and others have a large effect. Playing a "generically adjusted" system the same for every situation doesn't cut it in my book. Just my opinion.

Using an RTA you can get a good picture of the response, and in my room the 402 looks quite a bit different than the curves in the chamber. It's everyone's own decision if they want to make adjustments. I never EQ'd a system flat for very long, but I tried years ago..........I agree that does not sound very good. I do make minor adjustments with other speakers in the room to keep me in the ballpark. I probobly haven't touched my adjustments since last April when JC came for a visit. Before that was probably 6 months prior. It's not something done very often now that I have it dialed in.

The point I was trying to make is that ...........you do have to dial them in and what it took to make me happy was the tools and methods I've discussed. I wasn't guessing at it.

I used a DBX 1231 graphic which is not in use now. Yes, I can hear that it added a tiny amount of grain to system. But overall as a tool it has been excellent..........and sounds a little better than what was available in the 70s and 80s. The overall resulting curve was reproduced with parametric filters in my processor.

I also have other systems with passives & tubes and simple amplifiers. One of my favorite systems is my Scott LK-72 and '73 cornwalls with your networks in them. I use that sytem all the time indoors (and usually outdoors in the good weather). As you say these type of systems produce some rich detail. However, once you fire up the MCM along side these smaller systems, they sound a lot smaller to me and far less real, especially when listening to live music. You wouldn't know unless you came to my house. I have 4 systems in 1 big room and it's pretty clear which is best.

[colterphoto1]

I"m working through it guys. Got a KHJ/402 in one corner, a KH BEC AA in the other. See details of the listening setup and test evaluations on the Jubiilee thread. I'm no stranger to digital PEQ and just recently got my own DX38 so feel free to make multiple copies of settings and fiddle with them a bit. Agree on the test rig, pink noise into my iPhone RTA is not sufficient. I have graphic eq's but don't want to get too much in the signal path. With a SMAART setup in here I'm sure I can decide a couple of the original settings to modify/delete in favor of room-compensating curves. I am very happy with the Klipshorns in this room so there's not a room issue that I've noticed.

[colterphoto1]

Nope, that doesn't work either. Not only is it not possible to have a totaly 'wet' PEQ channel and one totally flat, I hooked up the L Jube to the D150 and the LF works and the HF just put out hiss... arrrrgggh - again..... and I thought I was doing so good today.. I'm gonna stay on it but this tries a person's patience and technical savvy to the max.

[mark1101]

MIke,

It sounds like you guys are working it. It's a fantastic idea to have the Khorn in the same room for A/B purposes. That should help you alot.

I recommend temporarily using the graphic to get it to sound the way you want using the Khorn as an additional A/B reference tool. Get an RTA curve of the 402 from about 3 ft once it sounds like you want. Remove the grapic EQ and then replicate that RTA curve in the DX unit with parametic filters. When the curves line up on top of one another you are probably really close. It should only be minor tweaks from Roy's settings. Maybe some minor gain adjustments as well.

You guys will get it.

[Deang]

I'm back in Dayton and Michael is flying solo at this point -- but he has loads of real world experience with that kind of equipment.